Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

[fantastic_four]

Actually this one would not work an most warehouse or file copies as they have white covers but tanned, darker pages.

 

Any idea why the covers would remain white in the high temperature and/or humid environment?

[Rip]

Good valid counter points, hang on....got put the 3 kids to bed...

[Red Hook]

Thanks Timely, I appreciate your feedback. What I have been ranting on about here is something that happens to bother me. I've already been told by a board member whose opinion I highly respect that it just doesn't make that much difference to him. Go figure.

 

But I would still like to know in advance.

 

I mean, wouldn't it be interesting to read in a sellers description...

 

"Another great feature of this book is that it has been professionally pressed by the world famous Matt Nelson of Classic Conservations! No one does it better than Matt! This book is Da Bomb in eye appeal! We took a great book and made it better. You'll pay more for it, but it will be worth it. And we guarantee that if the pressing ever reverses itself in the slab, we will repress and resubmit it for you and we will pick up the charge!"

 

There! If pressing is no big deal, why doesn't anyone own up to it or advertise it? (Add "I know this is a dumb question" gremlin.)

[aardvark88]

Actually this one would not work an most warehouse or file copies as they have white covers but tanned, darker pages.

 

Any idea why the covers would remain white in the high temperature and/or humid environment?

 

Cover stock is on higher quality paper & would not age as harshly as the lower quality interior paper. There are many structurally nice SA books from the Robt Bell/Dolgoff/Koch warehouse or from CA that have lousy tanning pages with decent off-wht covers.

[Timely]

Thanks aardvark, couldn't have said it better myself!

 

Timely

[PovertyRow]

First apologies for my absence (if anyone cares ). Work has been horrid, had to go to East Coast (death in the family) and am now just getting back into things.

 

Saw this topic and followed it and made my own thoughts on several ideas as I read them. Hope to be back more solidily in the furture.

 

So here is my 276 cents:

 

1) As regards pulling dings out of a car and washing it. Washing a car is not the same as cleaning a comic. When you wash a car you remove dirt from the surface. The counterpart to this in a comic would be blowing or dusting with a soft brush any surface dirt. The difference? Paper is not metal (or fiberglass). Dirt on paper often gets embedded in the paper itself. Further, water or soaps etc do not modify the structure of the car the way water etc alters the structure of paper. So if the dirt cannot be blown or dusted off, then the comparison ends there.

 

As far as removing dings from a car: if it is a collectible car then those dings will probably be found and noted (at least by a knowledgeable collector). Again, we have the comparison of metal (or to be more precise, painted metal) to paper. Removing a "ding" just does not have the same inherent impact as flattening a "ding" in paper, due to the composition of the paper. And especially the less than high quality paper found in especially older books.

 

2) As regards ebay sellers blatantly announcing the books have been cleaned and pressed - I say "Well done to them" because at least they admit it and the seller is knowing what they are bidding on. MUCH better than no disclosure.

 

3) While I agree a slight spine roll may not require the removal of staples, a spine roll of any extent would if the book is a) going to have the roll properly removed and b) if the roll is going to be removed without further damage to the book. Even a moderate spine roll requires some shifting of the books structure to remove. And the thought of shoving the whole book, with staples intact, a quarter of an inch or more and then pressing it over time has its implications. Especially because it would be near impossible to achieve precise alignment with the original staple placement. So you end up with a book with double staple impressions, and possible tearing at the staple points. I also feel that, for the sake of longevity, a full dismantling and individual addressing of each wrap should be performed.

 

4) I enjoy a good Pinot Grigio!

 

5) Not sure what an "industrial press" would be but a small Seal Dry Mount press is just fine. Too much pressure will wreak havoc with the staples and the surrounding paper as the staples get "smooshed".

 

6) As regards the "let's do it ourselves and save the restorer fee." Well, simple things like Wonder bread or eraser pads for cleaning are well within the range of the amateur (as long as you are VERY careful to check on the results so inks do not start fading and are VERY careful your work area is very clean, so you don’t end up rubbing some hard grit into a black cover and producing those striking white lines!

 

As regards self-removal of spine roll - I have expressed myself many times here - avoid a clothes iron. the book should be PRESSED, not IRONED (the difference being the press is flat pressure and a clothes iron a) lacks sufficient size to do a press in one swoop covering the entire surface of the book (it can easily leave indentations in the shape of an iron if one just presses it down flat on the edge of a book) b) is difficult to control the temperature of (we are not talking a lot of heat here - maybe 160-180 degrees F) and c) if you DO decide to actually "iron" the book in a back and forth motion the way one irons clothes, well - the results can be truly horrid.

 

While cleaning and pressing SOUNDS simple, it is not. You are basically impacting the entire surface of the covers and the whole structure of the interior pages. As I have said - get those old junk books and PRACTICE. And also remember, paper and inks differ between publishers and even among the same publishers and certain years or even titles. Experience is what drives the cost of resto up.

 

7) I have not seen any mention of release paper. To attempt a spine roll removal or a pressing with a dry mount press without it is not the best idea.

 

8) To address this particular item: "My current hypothesis is that pressing accompanied by high temperature and humidity in a dry-mount press doesn't reverse itself. It's a "hypothesis" only because I *THINK* either PovertyRow or Tracey Heft told me this, but I haven't tried it myself and I can't remember exactly when or where they said it." High temperature is never required. As I said - 160 to 180F is more than enough. And the amount of humidification should be really minimal.

 

9) VPD - Vapor Phase Deacidification - saw this in an attachment. It "old technology" - 80's. It is temporary at best and can, in the long term, cause further discoloration and possibly more damage. It should not be used for deacidication.

 

10) Lastly - is it restoration? OF COURSE it is. But many folks rail against it being called restoration because many folks see restored book as a Frankenstein book. Call it what you want BUT - and to be "zen like as I was accused when I said a while back "it is what it is" - well - it IS. Cleaning and pressing IS restoration.

 

[Rip]

1. Smells funny chemical smell... Dry cleaning doesn't leave this

Vaild point...but as a side note one of the techniques used for restoration in the fine art field is chemicaly treated paper. This paper is pressed on top of the surface of the artwork/book. The dirt and oils are absorbed into the paper...the paper is removed...and volia so is much of the dirt grime etc.

 

* 2. (Seeing Unusual patterns in the light....) What kinds of patterns? How do you know this isn't caused by unintentional wear?

Again vaild counter point. But light wavyness, streaks, square patterns etc. are just things to look out for.

 

* 4. (White cover, darker pgs) I think this one could definitely be an indicator on some books, good thinking, although it's out the door on anything with better than offwhite pages. However, it's circumstantial evidence, not direct, and mostly useful as a reason to keep looking for other indicators of cleaning.

Timely had a good point, older books stored at the warehouse I used to work at had some tanning at the top where the books were more exposed to the elements.

 

* 5. Light faded brown smudging where there was once foxing How do you know there used to be foxing where the smudging is?

I don't, but its just something to look for on top of other indicators.

 

* 6. Laking intensity of any color How do you know this isn't caused by unintentional wear or sunlight exposure?

Again your correct, but many times even on crappy beat up copies black usually stands out more and reflects

 

* 1. Ink transfer on all inside pags How do you know this isn't unintentional and simply a result of a comic having been on the bottom of a stack of comics?

Yea but usually it doesn't have that much weight on it to cause an ink transfer with a pattern..

(See attachment) Example of what pressing can do to inside pages.

[awe4one]

Hypocrisy? Explain how it's hypocritical, please...and then tell me what you do for a living so I can point out the things not being done in your field so I can make you feel professionally lazy and uncaring about the state of YOUR art. I'm not a comics professional myself...but YOU'RE not one either, and it ticks me off when amateurs blindly criticize professionals from a position of near-total ignorance. THAT'S the definition of hypocrisy.

 

Hypocrisy is slamming dealers who routinely restores books and sells them on eBay but is willing to look the other way and go with the flow if another type of restoration (and that is what it is.....improving a book from it's original condition) isn't necessarily detectable despite the evidence showing the improvement.

 

I can not believe that some people don't comprehend the chaotic reality of entropy. Some tasks are beyond the realm of practicality, if not possibility. I would like for the police to catch every criminal, for war to never plague the planet again, for racism to be eradicated from human consciousness, and for every press, cleaning, and trim to be detected by certification companies in all hobbies everywhere. Until all that is possible, I try to live with the limits of human achievement...but if you're unable to do that, that's fine, enjoy your frustration with this imperfect world you're forced to live in.

 

You're missing the fact that part of the problem is CGC is reslabbing books they've originally seen with higher grades. They can change their procedures to catch these resubmits. That how they START to combat the problem. To do nothing or say the same occurred in other hobbies so we should just except the practice in this one is unacceptable.

 

Is minor cleaning and pressing possible to catch? Quite possibly. Has anyone figured out a way to prove it? No. The hobby could benefit from any constructive suggestions you might wish to contribute.

 

No I'll let the experts at CGC who need to deal and find a solution to this problem address it. I pay them for a service and expect them, at a minimum, to start addressing the issue constructively versus the hands in the air "we're not sure we can detect it" mantra they've used in the past. An excuse that apparently you're happy with.....

 

Jim

[FFB]

This is the best rationale I've ever heard for why people should learn to grade comics themselves. If flippers are finding CGC 9.0s that should be 9.2s and resubbing them without resto, then as long as the second grade is accurate, the buyer has no room to complain.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

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And what happened in coins in the 1980's to cause a crash and approx. 10 years of darkness? The same things being noticed and discussed on the comic forums now. The evidence of possible impropriety. Coins switching grade, artificial toning, resubmissions after obvious restoration, slabbed fake coins, dealers owning their own grading service and conflicts of interest, lawsuits, arrests, and bad press on all of the mentioned.

I hate to say this but it all seems to be a repeat of what has happened before with many of the same players involved to boot. Maybe getting some input from some of the long-time coin hobbyists would be helpful for gaining some inciteful opinions.

 

 

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Agreed, although the point is slightly off-topic since this thread is about cleaning and pressing. Isn't light cleaning an accepted practice in coins? The people who posted in the threads we recently started in the coin forums said it is.

 

 

 

As of yet, there is very little cross-over grading (the resubmission of an item already graded by one company to another in hopes of realizing a better grade or getting back a product tat now can be sold for a higher price) in the comics hobby.

If and as more comic grading services appear that bear some collector weight in rendering opinion, this practice will develop.

 

There is an entire section of enterpreneurs that pour through PSA 5s and 6s, looking for signs that a certain type of card, with the right "correctible" attributes may cross-over to an SGC 80 slab and bring them the associated dollar gain with that eventuality realized.

There are others that examine SGC 60s, looking for correctible triats that they can smoke by PSA for a '7' return once they apply their mechanics touch. The problems in cards start when certain cards graded by one company will not cross-over to another's company criteria cue to a more rigorous standard of what is restoration and what isn't!

For instance, for the longest time, PSA would grade cards cut off of a sheet or promotional section if within their accepted parameters of acceptible size. SGC would not, regardless of the size because they are advanced enough to be able to detect factory mechanized edge cuts from those of the home mechanics.

So here is an instance where you have thousands of Tiger Woods, Shaq, Jordan, Griffey, etc. "promotional" and "special issued" cards, pre-rookie, rookie, and otherwise that PSA and the other 100 or so grading services would readily grade, trading at a combined tens of millions of dollars on Ebay, and as of yet, according to the standards of SGC, who would not slab them, are not legitimately unaltered cards!

Matter of factly, the first PSA submission and most famous slabbed card in the world, the PSA 8 Honus Wagner NM/MT card has a long standing, historic stigma about it possibly being altered. From what talk is, it's uncertain whether SGC would slab that card.

Everything was fine and dandy with the introduction of a new grading service, the first or second ones into a particular hobby. Then the problems started when there was more than 1 or 2 reputable, respected grading service in a hobby and then the discrepancies were noted and receive widespread publicity.

There are many, many anecdotal accounts of fake, altered and horribly misgraded material being found in the slabs of early grading services in both cards and coins once material started to be re-submitted on a regular basis to see how well a piece crossed-over to grading by another newer grading service.

The internet is littered with accounts of lawsuits, criminal actions, FTC rulings, etc, etc.. All you have to do for details is delve into the Internet search engines.

[jbud73]

Lots of things come to mind, I read this string, which is really an supplementary to old guys original string last week. Didn't jump in early this time as I wanted to wait and see the discourse articulation go further along abit this time and really get my ideas cemented.

 

- John, FYI - Nelson is Matt Nelson, for more info on who he is and what the issues surounding him and Heritage are - as they have been brought up on this board I suggest you go here. Original Old Guy clean press resub thread.

 

- My uncle was / is a coin collector, after reading Atomic's post I called him. We had a long discussion about the coinee graded collectables market and its potential ramifications to the comic market. He said alot of things, much of which scared me, some things assured me (his refernce to why do you collect? I said cause Im entertained and appreciate the art form, he replied, "then do that - keep one eye open and one ear to the ground, but never let that get in the way of the appreciation.") sound advice. Though he also said that in his opinion the comic collectables market had "come of age" unfortunately coming of age usually brings with it coming of unscruluplous [!@#%^&^].

 

- Does the clean press surprise me? NO. I mean unless you have your head in the sand a $500 device that can make you thousands of dollars in a relatively short period on time? I mean remember the specs. in the early 90s - House is found of saying they entered the market without knowledge with $$$ in theor head. Sorry but the same thing goes here. IT IS NOT HARD TO SUCCESSFULLY ALTER A COMIC BOOK AND REMOVE OR IMPROVE DEFECTS WITH DEVICES THAT ARE READILY ATTAINABLE AND NOT EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE - this according to my local art and book binding supplies store. With this in mind, I think that this is probably being done more than even we speculate.

 

And finally a personal note, on how this effects my collecting ........

 

- I seem to remember a few BSDs being mentioned who were seen to be buying book presses on Ebay with their known Ids, I would assume that BSDs will now do this under shills - but I have a information plea and would appreciate a public response given my current comic collecting situation. After returning to the hobby almost 2 years ago I have suffciently caught up with my first extensive want list. I now find myself in the position where I am going to be purchasing 5-8 major books (for me anyway) most likely CGC slabbed I would assume each book to be in excess of $500 for sure. These are going into my collection and never coming out, So my question to my fellow community of collectors is - who are the major pressing candidates after Ewert and Nelson I want transparency -I think Im entitled to it, so is there a community of collectors or not??. My goal is simple the best book I can get for the least money. And I think points articulated early in the thread come out in my situation as follows.

 

1. If im gonna throw down that kinda money, in lieu of a vacation, a newer car, a better TV etc etc - not in lieu of investing because I view my collecting as a true hobby not an investment. Then do I want to be contributing to something I see as being a minor to major problem in our hobby.

 

2. Do I want to buy these books off unscupulous BSDs who would perform book alteration in this way, does my throwing extra $$$ there way not encourage this.

 

3. Since the books I'm buying are not for resale do I have sleepless nights about getting revert books ala ComicWiz?

 

4. And consider this from a utilitarian aspect - Timely says that he doesnt begrudge the seller because if it can be done well then he just appreciates the book. By that logic therefore, would I not be better served to spend an Xtra 300-700 on a device that has as its goal the same thing? Rather than throw an xtra few thousand to the dealer for doing something I could have done myself. Here is I think the essence of FF's arguement , we buy for our love of the hobby not to flip for profit potential. If we as collectors do this to improve books for our own collection is that not valid? Its a slippery slope and I think even if you take Greed and profit potential out of the equation and substitute it with product value maximization - that is saving money instead of making money - the results are still dubious.

 

In helping my collection do I hurt the overall hobby, what type of collector, or appreciator of comics does that make me??? Somehow I DONT think my uncle would approve.

 

jbud

 

I think you've officially dethroned me of my custom title with this post

 

Very interesting post. You've raised some very good points.

 

The only way I see the the hobby ridding itself from the current problem of sellers pressing/cleaning/resubmitting is if either:

 

i) HEY! SELLERS! LEAVE THOSE BOOKS ALONE! (sung to the tune of Pink Floyd's "The Wall")

 

ii) collectors stop paying multiple guide prices for NM or better comics.

 

I just can't see either of these two idea flying with collectors or dealers, so just as your uncle advised, keep your eyes open, and your ears to the ground.

 

My feeling is that the funs just begun....

 

 

Naw ComWiz, I still think your one of the top notch posters on the board I just hit the nail once in a while. I think that I'll be going to the TO con next year in part just to chit chat with you and the other TO crew face to face hahah should make for an interesting cup of coffee - I already cant wait for the assembled Bay area forumities chit chat at WonderCon.

 

No answers to my plea though - seems that ppl talk tough but shy away from naming names.

 

I think one of the possible answers to my query is that now MAY NOT be the time to buy the more expensive books I've been looking at. Its one iof the reasons I cracked HOM, rather than buying a CGC 9.4, or 9.6 GS X-men #1. Ah well whats a collector to do...............

[drbanner]

8) To address this particular item: "My current hypothesis is that pressing accompanied by high temperature and humidity in a dry-mount press doesn't reverse itself. It's a "hypothesis" only because I *THINK* either PovertyRow or Tracey Heft told me this, but I haven't tried it myself and I can't remember exactly when or where they said it." High temperature is never required. As I said - 160 to 180F is more than enough. And the amount of humidification should be really minimal.

 

Thanks Pov, do you think that professionally pressed books (w/minimal heat and humidity) are at danger of reverting? How about books placed under under a stack of dictionaries for some period of time with no heat/moisture application?

[comicwiz]

You're missing the fact that part of the problem is CGC is reslabbing books they've originally seen with higher grades. They can change their procedures to catch these resubmits. That how they START to combat the problem. To do nothing or say the same occurred in other hobbies so we should just except the practice in this one is unacceptable.

 

Unfortunately, CGC will NOT combat, nor see it as a problem IF the combat strategy implies more work/time to grade comics, or to tack on too much adminisitrative cost/time to tackle the problem. They have made this abhorrantly obvious in answering other issues raised on these forums, and I don't believe they are about to change their practices or perspectives overnight, especially not for a practice not deemed as being part of the restoration camp.

[drbanner]

Changing their procedures to catch the resubmits means nothing if they adhere to their stated policy of not PLOD'ing pressed/dry-cleaned books (even if they can determine the book has been pressed/dry-cleaned). As it is, they need to evaluate each and every book that comes to the grader's table based on it's merits at that time, and if incorrect pressing has fooked a book up, or someone's abrasive dry cleaning methods have scuffed the surface of the book or removed cover gloss, they need to downgrade the book accordingly (which I'm sure they do anyway).

[Red Hook]

Here is a proposed revised label.....which doesn't get into right or wrong, but alerts the consumer that the book is a resubmission and also lets folks know the original certification number of the label now taken out of circulation. BTW all numbers and data on this label are real.

 

The asterisk is in place because unless the scan you are looking at is high resolution, you'll never be able to read the text on the label. This alerts you to it in a fairly unobtrusive manner. CGC makes no judgement on the book, doesn't get into whether it's pressed, cleaned, scented, used as a cutting board......it simply states that in their opinion it's still a blue label special. It would be up to the consumer (if they even cared) to seek out further info on the original submission.

 

[drbanner]

The concept of labelling a known resubmit as such without prejudice or passing judgement is certainly a good idea, but...how do you identify the resubs? That's the fundamental problem, and there is no real practical solution...I can't seem to locate the "old" version of the infamous Batman 11, but I dont' recall that it was a pedigree or a high grade copy, or really remarkable/notable in any way.

[Red Hook]

It obviously won't work for all books. In the case of this daredevil, the original label was turned in, and taken out of the census. As I have mentioned the Green Rivers, because of the date stamp are a walk in the park to ID. Winnipegseasy, the writing on the cover nails those. The Pacific Coast books might be easy to ID - but as far as I know there are plenty of questions about exactly how many multiple copies exist. But of course, dealers will find a way around whatever system CGC bothers to use.

 

In the case of GA books, there are just so many copies known to exist. They would be easier to track.

 

There isn't an easy solution......

 

I do not know of any published complete listings of the contents of the various pedigrees.....except for Green River. Having lists like that to start with would help.

 

It may end up that a database of known resubs would be a private project. Big, but very valuable, in my opinion. It is all about transparency. That can only help the hobby to stay healthy.

[sfilosa]

There isn't an easy solution......

 

I do not know of any published complete listings of the contents of the various pedigrees.....except for Green River. Having lists like that to start with would help.

 

It is all about transparency. That can only help the hobby to stay healthy.

 

Hence, you are beating a dead horse into the ground.

 

Do you really believe that CGC would be able to identify ALL (I repeat All) books that have been graded once, and then resubmitted? If the answer is NO, then what's the point?

 

They will NOT (I repeat NOT), put invisible ink on the books. This was discussed prior to the start of CGC, and it was agreed that this wasn't going to happen. What would be the point of putting invisible ink on books, but than having some major collectors not want to get their books CGC'd, because of the invisible ink. How would that benefit the hobby? It wouldn't.

 

And if they could ever come up with a full proof digital scan (and recognition software), then we mine as well make GRADING A SCIENCE, instead of an art. If the software can ALWAYS identify the books that have been resubmitted before, than surely it can be programmed to GRADE the book.

[Red Hook]

Well, I wouldn't neccessaily call it a dead horse. With not a lot of detective work, I've already been able to identify two definite resubs. Granted, as I said before, Green Rivers are probably the easiest.

 

And I'm not delusional. I know the odds of CGC doing an about face on this. I'm not going to wait around for them to do something about it. That's why I brought up the possiblity of it ending up a private project, kind of like Valiantman's work. And no, I don't expect anyone to be able to track all the resubs, just the rarer high-ticket items. And those are the ones that dealers are going to resub anyway. I'm not worried about a SA 8.0 getting cleaned and pressed and offered as an 8.5. But a 9.4 restored and offered as a 9.6 is something that catches my attention, as obviously in the two Daredevil cased I sited, did just that.

 

What I personally am going to do is try to compile a website of as many of the slabbed Green Rivers I can find, along with slabs and registration numbers and just put it out there. That's a start. Just a start. Even if I can end up identifying and documenting just a few cases in each pedigree, I think the point will be made, and the buyer will have to beware. Even if it's sending an email to a seller and asking, "Hey, was this book pressed?"

 

I don't think this is a hopeless task. I don't have any agenda other than wanting to know exactly what I am buying...I think I have that right. I'm not intested in flipping, or buying purely as an investment. In fact, for me it'll be fun.

 

I don't think it's a dead horse at all. There has obviously been plenty of reaction to this topic on the boards....this is only one of several fairly long threads on this subject. Despite what anyone may want to think, it is definitely an issue. And it won't disappear any time soon. I think we just need to keep talking about it.

 

Finally, I never suggested an invisible marker. I don't want Steve Borocks DNA on my books (sorry Steve, nothing personal!) Like I said, the easiest way to begin (and I emphasis, BEGIN), to draw aside this curtain, is to make the CGC registration database searchable by pedigree. The info is already there!

 

So what's your solution?

[fantastic_four]

8) To address this particular item: "My current hypothesis is that pressing accompanied by high temperature and humidity in a dry-mount press doesn't reverse itself. It's a "hypothesis" only because I *THINK* either PovertyRow or Tracey Heft told me this, but I haven't tried it myself and I can't remember exactly when or where they said it." High temperature is never required. As I said - 160 to 180F is more than enough. And the amount of humidification should be really minimal.

 

So you mean that a dry mount press is the way to press without the wrinkles eventually coming back? Hard to achieve 160 to 180 degree temperatures with a stack of dictionaries or a book press.

[fantastic_four]

Vaild point...but as a side note one of the techniques used for restoration in the fine art field is chemicaly treated paper. This paper is pressed on top of the surface of the artwork/book. The dirt and oils are absorbed into the paper...the paper is removed...and volia so is much of the dirt grime etc.

 

Any idea whether this paper leaves the chemical odor? Or where to buy it?

 

 

Yea but usually it doesn't have that much weight on it to cause an ink transfer with a pattern.. (See attachment) Example of what pressing can do to inside pages.

 

Whoa...what's the history of that copy? Did you press it yourself? If not, couldn't it have happened during printing? I never thought about interior ink transfer before you brought it up.