Trimming

[chunkybutt]

How does CGC determine if a book has been trimmed?

And how can you tell if a raw comic has been trimmed? I mean obviously if 1/4" has been taken off the bottom you can see that. But I have been comparing SA books, raw and graded to each other, specifically looking at RH side.

I have noticed that with one comic the left hand side of 2 issues are identical, yet the right hand side of 1 issue has about 1/32" - 1/16" less of the image. I am looking at scans and not the books, but if the LH sides are the same from top to bottom and the RH sides are missing the image evenly from top to bottom does that mean it has been trimmed? or could it have come off the press like that?

[etanick]

CGC kept that to themselves because revealing how they detect trimming may help the crooks out there to come up with better method to avoid detection.

[chunkybutt]

makes sense, so how can I tell.

I see so many SA books graded as restored in census but not hardly any for sale in the open market. I am worried about buying keys that are plods cracked out of their cases.

[comicparadox]

As in robojo33's raw books...

[rodan57]

Usually, we are talking about trimming the cover and not the book. Look for an edge that has far less wear than other edges on the book. This is sometimes described as an edge that is "impossibly straight".

 

Sometimes, if the trim is badly done, the line of the edge is "impossibly crooked".

 

If the cut is relatively recent, the transverse of the edge will be "whiter" in colour than the other edges.

 

 

Having said this, the quality control of books and publishers varies over the decades.

 

Speaking from the perspective of a Silver Age Marvel collector, cut and quality varied within the print run of many comics. Some books in the same run would be dimensionally smaller than others in the same run. A 1/16th of an inch would not necessarily be a huge variance in height or width.

 

Marvels from this period should have an overhang at the top of the book and perhaps a little at the bottom - but this too would vary.

 

Early DD and late TTA had amazing miscuts and jagged edges.

 

 

Of course, some fraudulent vendors are very good at trimming and "ageing" a book when a small grade improvement can guarantee a much high sale value.

 

Most collectors would say that if a book makes you suspicious, pass.

[chunkybutt]

As in robojo33's raw books...

 

no one persons books specifically, just books in general.

I do not think I will buy raw SA off of ebay anymore. But books in LCS could have been traded in and shop may not have checked for resto.

 

thanks for the feedback guys

[rodan57]

If you are also interested in restoration in general, read the third stickied thread in this forum. Well worth the investment of time.

[Hero Restoration]

I have been wondering, if a SA Marvel has no overhang does that mean it is trimmed without a doubt or did some of the Marvel books get cut right?

[Green]

makes sense, so how can I tell.

Well, first you have to take it out of the bag........

[Green]

I have been wondering, if a SA Marvel has no overhang does that mean it is trimmed without a doubt or did some of the Marvel books get cut right?

I have some in blue labels that have no overhang fwiw.

[fantastic_four]

If you are also interested in restoration in general, read the third stickied thread in this forum. Well worth the investment of time.

 

This question on trimming's been asked a dozen times before, lots more info in those threads. Posts with topics that haven't been discussed for years in this forum are really rare these days.

[rodan57]

Though to be fair to recent posters, the search engine on this board is difficult to use with consistent success ... and mostly because of the members, themselves.

 

Searching the "subject" should provide easy results.

 

However, just a quick scanning of current threads on the Board indicates how very few posters title their threads in way that reflect the content.

 

And, when one searches with "subject and body" the number of hits can become astronomical.

 

[Boozad]

makes sense, so how can I tell.

Well, first you have to take it out of the bag........

 

[fantastic_four]

Though to be fair to recent posters, the search engine on this board is difficult to use with consistent success ... and mostly because of the members, themselves.

 

Searching the "subject" should provide easy results.

 

However, just a quick scanning of current threads on the Board indicates how very few posters title their threads in way that reflect the content.

 

And, when one searches with "subject and body" the number of hits can become astronomical.

 

Bull. Doing a simple search for 10 years in this forum on subjects containing the word "trimming" yields an absolute cornucopia of information on the topic. It takes exponentially less time to do that search than it does for us to answer the same questions over, and over, and over, and over. Some things are hard to search on, but most aren't.

 

That doesn't mean I'm complaining about this post--I realize most people don't even know the search function exists. I'm really only complaining about the assertion that you can't find info via search or that it's overly complex...that's all exaggeration.

[jimjum12]

Though to be fair to recent posters, the search engine on this board is difficult to use with consistent success ... and mostly because of the members, themselves.

 

Searching the "subject" should provide easy results.

 

However, just a quick scanning of current threads on the Board indicates how very few posters title their threads in way that reflect the content.

 

And, when one searches with "subject and body" the number of hits can become astronomical.

 

Bull. Doing a simple search for 10 years in this forum on subjects containing the word "trimming" yields an absolute cornucopia of information on the topic. It takes exponentially less time to do that search than it does for us to answer the same questions over, and over, and over, and over. Some things are hard to search on, but most aren't.

 

That doesn't mean I'm complaining about this post--I realize most people don't even know the search function exists. I'm really only complaining about the assertion that you can't find info via search or that it's overly complex...that's all exaggeration.

 

Trimming is the most difficult type of restoration to detect and even more difficult to actually verify. I know people who have submitted books that they purchased off the rack and are NOT trimmed, yet they came back as trimmed. There are also books that ARE trimmed that aren't caught. The Ewart affair with micro trimmed books are extremely difficult to detect or verify. At this point there is no absolute science for verification of a trim job....it is basically opinion driven. The books that are most affected are SA Marvels printed from 1961- 1966 due to a slight overhang that many of them have, usually on the top edge. Overhangs (flashing) are much less common, almost non existant on the bottom edge. Variations in the cut of the covers and on the cut of the actual book will create several different results within the SAME issue, so placing one book next to another, i.e. two different copies of ASM # 1, will NOT necessarily solve the question of whether one is trimmed. Sometimes the body of the book is cut slightly larger than another specimen of the same book due to either human error or mechanical, such as a loose guide in the shearing process or a drifting plate or several other less common factors. If this causes a batch of the books to be slightly larger than others in the run it will create a book that will "seem" to have less overhang.....not because there is less cover, but rather because there is MORE book. This is just one of several scenarios that will result in an erronious diagnosis of trimming. I actually own a book that fits this bill and came back as trimmed even though it is not. Don't get me wrong, CGC is still the best thing going....but they will still make the occasional error. I will try to provide some pics to illustrate a few of these points in the next day or so. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[FFB]

Though to be fair to recent posters, the search engine on this board is difficult to use with consistent success ... and mostly because of the members, themselves.

 

Searching the "subject" should provide easy results.

 

However, just a quick scanning of current threads on the Board indicates how very few posters title their threads in way that reflect the content.

 

And, when one searches with "subject and body" the number of hits can become astronomical.

 

Bull. Doing a simple search for 10 years in this forum on subjects containing the word "trimming" yields an absolute cornucopia of information on the topic. It takes exponentially less time to do that search than it does for us to answer the same questions over, and over, and over, and over. Some things are hard to search on, but most aren't.

 

That doesn't mean I'm complaining about this post--I realize most people don't even know the search function exists. I'm really only complaining about the assertion that you can't find info via search or that it's overly complex...that's all exaggeration.

 

Trimming is the most difficult type of restoration to detect and even more difficult to actually verify. I know people who have submitted books that they purchased off the rack and are NOT trimmed, yet they came back as trimmed. There are also books that ARE trimmed that aren't caught. The Ewart affair with micro trimmed books are extremely difficult to detect or verify. At this point there is no absolute science for verification of a trim job....it is basically opinion driven. The books that are most affected are SA Marvels printed from 1961- 1966 due to a slight overhang that many of them have, usually on the top edge. Overhangs (flashing) are much less common, almost non existant on the bottom edge. Variations in the cut of the covers and on the cut of the actual book will create several different results within the SAME issue, so placing one book next to another, i.e. two different copies of ASM # 1, will NOT necessarily solve the question of whether one is trimmed. Sometimes the body of the book is cut slightly larger than another specimen of the same book due to either human error or mechanical, such as a loose guide in the shearing process or a drifting plate or several other less common factors. If this causes a batch of the books to be slightly larger than others in the run it will create a book that will "seem" to have less overhang.....not because there is less cover, but rather because there is MORE book. This is just one of several scenarios that will result in an erronious diagnosis of trimming. I actually own a book that fits this bill and came back as trimmed even though it is not. Don't get me wrong, CGC is still the best thing going....but they will still make the occasional error. I will try to provide some pics to illustrate a few of these points in the next day or so. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

The Ewert books weren't "microtrimmed," and I wish people would stop saying they were. Some of those books were missing up to 1/8" from a given edge, which is by no means "micro."

[jimjum12]

.....some of them were, and those are the ones I was referring to. Books missing an eighth of an inch are pretty easy to spot and aren't the kind of books where the errors occur. I do understand what you're saying and I'm no expert on Ewart books by any means....glad I was outbid on any that I went after, even though not all Ewart books were "soiled". GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[jimjum12]

Here are some examples of scenarios that often cause collectors to assume trimming when that is not the case. The first example shows two different strikes of the same cover that result either from a poor alignment in either the printing or cropping process.This leads people to question trimming at the top edge. The second example shows a miswrap AND a different strike. I've noticed with front on back miswraps that more of the right edge will be exposed( though not always), leading collectors to suspect a right edge trim when it is not the case. This is it for tonight. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

 

 

P.S. On these copies you'll notice that one copy has more image at the top, while the other has more image at the bottom. Neither is trimmed.

[jimjum12]

This example has the top copy with a front to back miswrap that leaves part of the comic exposed on the right edge. It also has less image at the top (less than a sixteenth inch) and more at the bottom, although it is difficult to verify without magnification. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

 

 

 

 

[jimjum12]

Here is another example with pictures from the two JIM 85's. The first 2 are from the top copy in the previous post. This copy has a miscut to the book itself. The book had drifted off track as evidenced by the visible registration type marks on the right edge. This book is slightly trapezoidal in shape while the cover is not. It creates a situation were the right edge extends past the cover and the top edge of the book is not parallel with the edge of the cover. This book received a PLOD (Top edge trimmed) when this is NOT the case. In defense of CGC, they do not know the history of the book and at first glance it might look like the right top edge is trimmed downward when in reality, the top edge of the inner BOOK was miscut UPWARDS at the printers. If you look closely at the top edge you can see where it's out of square and a ruler will verify that. I've also posted a shot of another copy in the print run that hasn't drifted out of spec...as a comparison. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u