How to break up uncanny 143 - 245?

[500Club]

You can argue there were two movements there. First, the black/white movement, peaking in about '86, characterized by small press, self published indy creators, and often satirical or parody type storylines. Second, the creator rights, independent movement, triggered by Adams in the 70s, and becoming more significant in the 80s, with Pacific, and more name creators leading the charge.

 

I see these as the same movement, but two sides of the coin. One was more established creators (Kirby, Starlin, Adams, etc.) thumbing their noses at Marvel & DC, while the other was a Indie back-door into the comic business, which a lot of "small press" guys kicked down.

 

It's really the same thing, just a difference in experience and production.

 

Semantics, I suppose. I see the B+W boys as more of a separate phenomenon than a formal offshoot of the creator rights, but YMMV.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yes, in point of fact, it very much did. There was no directed, centralized "let's make independent comics!" committee. Creators simply created. Market conditions changed, allowing creators more control over their creations, and because the conditions were more suitable, the Indie market grew, here, there, everywhere.

 

Wow, this is about as simplistic view of a very complicated ideal as I have ever seen.

 

That sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Did you read it before hitting "submit"...?

 

"Complicated ideal"...? I do not think you know what the word "ideal" means.

 

You actually believe that "stuff just happened" by random chance to create some Independent Utopian garden, whereby the creators simply created, and the Independent fruits and vegetables flourished through random chance?

 

Oh ladedah! Let's create some more today and maybe try that "own your own creation" thing.

 

 

Seriously, if Jack Kirby were still around, he'd punch you in the face for posting this garbage.

 

Um, no, Jack Kirby was intelligent enough to understand simple concepts. But that won't stop you from being hostile, rude, and insulting when you don't understand something.

 

It is your raison d'être, after all.

 

The fact, AGAIN, remains: there was no "Copper Age movement", as the term itself wouldn't be invented until LONGGGGG after the timeframe discussed, and there was no DIRECTED, ORGANIZED (even loosely) structure that defines a "movement." Marvel, DC, Pacific, Eclipse, etc etc etc, just wanted to sell comics. Nothing more. Nothing less. No one thought they were moving from one age to the next. No one said one day in the Marvel Bullpen "You know, Walt, I think we're creating a movement, here!" "Why, John, I do believe you are quite right!, What do you think, Frank?" "Oh, definitely, total paradigm shift in the way and manner in which comics are being published from just a couple of years ago."

 

How silly.

[Prince Namor]

I think RMA is correct when he states that it wasn't a movement. To say it was would be to imply that some type of organization to make it happen occured and it just didn't.

However, I like Sean's point of a zeitgeist, because I think it applies here. There was a spirit and feeling of something different going on amongst unrelated creators and it was what would become what we now refer to as the Copper Age.

 

Back in college, as a weekly columnist for my school newspaper, I used the term 'unconscious conspiracy' in referring to some movement I was writing about and the faculty advisor had a real problem with the term.

I was just trying to make smart a-- term for what I was trying to convey at the time, but he got a real bee in his bonnet over it.

He said, "The word's conflict. You can't have a conspiracy if no one is aware of it. It doesn't work. There's no such thing as an unconscious conspiracy."

I said, "Then what's a zeitgeist?"

He rolled his eyes and let me corrupt the English language as I saw fit.

[Bosco685]

I think RMA is correct when he states that it wasn't a movement. To say it was would be to imply that some type of organization to make it happen occured and it just didn't.

Chuck, I hear what you are suggesting. But comparing what happened in the Copper Age to a political movement (organized revolt) versus an artistic movement (inspiration through observing successful changes in the art medium) have a different influence and intent. One applies to what occurred during the transition into the Copper Age and during this period, and the other doesn't.

 

There wasn't a recognized group that organized a revolt against the Big Two. It was a gradual transition in the industry as others watched the events occurring, and the successes realized by the early change agents.

 

Eastman & Laird didn't publish a challenge to the market before going live, organizing a B&W revolt that would kick off once they published. They went live with a parody that turned into a major market success story. It was all about the inspiration to follow the path they walked due to this success, and the realization others could potentially achieve the same with the right art, stories, and luck. Many found out later it wasn't as simple as just creating crazy characters with knock-off titles based on the TMNTs.

 

So as an artistic movement, it was the few that inspired the masses through their actions and successes. And like Vince has pointed out, the motivation started before the Copper Age. Just look at Cerebus and Elfquest as examples.

 

But no matter what, whether you see it as an artistic movement or an event that "just occurred," these changes happened. At least we all can agree on this, which matters most. And we all love what occurred and discussing it or we wouldn't hang around this part of the forum so much.

 

[500Club]

The fact, AGAIN, remains: there was no "Copper Age movement", as the term itself wouldn't be invented until LONGGGGG after the timeframe discussed, and there was no DIRECTED, ORGANIZED (even loosely) structure that defines a "movement."

 

This is where my gut feeling leads me as well. It wasn't until the 1990's that we retroactively applied the term Copper Age, and then began debating its beginning and end.

[500Club]

Back in college, as a weekly columnist for my school newspaper, I used the term 'unconscious conspiracy' in referring to some movement I was writing about and the faculty advisor had a real problem with the term.

For the record, I love this...

[Bosco685]

The fact, AGAIN, remains: there was no "Copper Age movement", as the term itself wouldn't be invented until LONGGGGG after the timeframe discussed, and there was no DIRECTED, ORGANIZED (even loosely) structure that defines a "movement."

 

This is where my gut feeling leads me as well. It wasn't until the 1990's that we retroactively applied the term Copper Age, and then began debating its beginning and end.

 

Of course these ages are after-the-fact. At one point, Silver Age was considered the Modern Age.

 

 

It is after-the-fact that we look at history and try to define what it was all about.

[500Club]

The fact, AGAIN, remains: there was no "Copper Age movement", as the term itself wouldn't be invented until LONGGGGG after the timeframe discussed, and there was no DIRECTED, ORGANIZED (even loosely) structure that defines a "movement."

 

This is where my gut feeling leads me as well. It wasn't until the 1990's that we retroactively applied the term Copper Age, and then began debating its beginning and end.

 

Of course these ages are after-the-fact. At one point, Silver Age was considered the Modern Age.

 

 

It is after-the-fact that we look at history and try to define what it was all about.

You need to read the quote above mine to respond in a proper context. Yes, the ages are applied retroactively. That's always been the case.

 

I'm agreeing with RMA that these ages are not 'movements'. If you think the Copper Age was a 'movement', ask yourself this: it took 20 years of hindsight to recognize that the Copper Age was a 'movement'? Really?

 

It sure as hell didn't take 20 years of hindsight to see the creator rights movement spearheaded by Adams et al...

[RockMyAmadeus]

The fact, AGAIN, remains: there was no "Copper Age movement", as the term itself wouldn't be invented until LONGGGGG after the timeframe discussed, and there was no DIRECTED, ORGANIZED (even loosely) structure that defines a "movement."

 

This is where my gut feeling leads me as well. It wasn't until the 1990's that we retroactively applied the term Copper Age, and then began debating its beginning and end.

 

Of course these ages are after-the-fact. At one point, Silver Age was considered the Modern Age.

 

 

It is after-the-fact that we look at history and try to define what it was all about.

You need to read the quote above mine to respond in a proper context. Yes, the ages are applied retroactively. That's always been the case.

 

I'm agreeing with RMA that these ages are not 'movements'. If you think the Copper Age was a 'movement', ask yourself this: it took 20 years of hindsight to recognize that the Copper Age was a 'movement'? Really?

 

It sure as hell didn't take 20 years of hindsight to see the creator rights movement spearheaded by Adams et al...

 

 

In other words, movements are recognized at the time they occur as what they are...otherwise, they are hardly worthy of being called "movements." They are not retroactively and arbitrarily defined decades later.

 

The greatest art in history "just happened." Every single time a group/committee/bureaucracy/government/religious institution/corporation has tried to control art (for that is what defines a "movement" - control), it has resulted in nothing but average, mediocre nothingness.

 

Great art is simply created by artists who need to create. Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

Great artists may converge in history and inspire one another to be more creative (which cannot be defined anyways), but this does not mean there is a "movement." "Movements" require "leaders", and regardless of who the leader(s) may be, no one in history has ever led anyone else into creating great art, even if the leader is a great artist himself.

 

Inspiration is one thing...but great art is ultimately a solitary endeavor, made in the mind and body of the individual.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Seriously, if Jack Kirby were still around, he'd punch you in the face for posting this garbage.

 

This is quite possibly the most wildly offensive thing I've ever seen JC post. It's one thing to insult people endlessly simply because they don't agree with your rigid, narrowminded worldview...

 

...it's quite another to presume to know what a deceased person would think/say/do, and especially considering that Jack Kirby was a gentleman, and wouldn't harm a soul in the first place. To invoke a dead man's name to give "weight" to your "point", when you yourself have no idea what he would or would not say, is just...astonishing.

 

Congrats, JC!

 

[Bosco685]

It sure as hell didn't take 20 years of hindsight to see the creator rights movement spearheaded by Adams et al...

 

The fight against the Big Two (and really one of the two was the real instigator due to its actions) was recognized quite fast. Look at how the market rallied around Kirby to try and assist in his efforts against Marvel.

 

But this entire discussion started with when did the market transition from Bronze Age to Copper Age. It was many events, to include the inspiration to overcome the perceived stranglehold that was out there. That's where the movement comparison comes into play, though at the time nobody was stating, "Wow, all this anti-hero, independent, anthropomorphic stuff is really cool." It took time for folks to see how things were changing.

 

So I was responded to the two of you, and very much was in context what I was explaining. I hope that makes sense to you.

[kdoginohio]

Can we "carbon date" a 1st copy of TMNT to get an exact date?

[Bosco685]

Can we "carbon date" a 1st copy of TMNT to get an exact date?

 

[Point Five]

For what it's worth, I was collecting X-Men at the time, and 219 was the one that made me say, "I just can't take it anymore".

I jumped off right around the same time. (thumbs u A lot of lame issues right around then. I soldiered on until #226, then finally gave up. To this day, that was the last X-book I bought off the stands.