Mission Statement for The Restoration Lab

[VintageComics]

Susan, this place can be overwhelming. After 46,000 posts I don't know how to stop anymore.

 

[Ze-man]

Another interesting set of questions/ideas in your last post, you sure covered a lot of ground while trying to "keep it simple" It's hard to not become convoluted while trying to get even a simple point across given the subject matter.

 

One thing caught my eye though.

 

To me, it would be huge progress if just CGC could keep everything exactly as it is with one tiny change: Instead of always putting "restoration" on the purple label, I'd like them to put "conservation" if the only "work" they detected was a reversible spine repair with Japanese paper. If I saw a purple holder with "conservation" on the label and knew that the conservation could be reversed, I would without a doubt pay more than if I saw exactly the same book in a purple holder with "restoration" on the label.

 

Again, this is already in place with the current PLOD.(except of course for the word Conservation) If a PLOD says "Slight P. Tear seal to cover, reinforced spine" This tells everyone that the work done was minor, and the materials used were professional/reversible(for the most part)

 

Putting the word "Conservation" on the label might make the product less stigmatic to some, but at the end of the day a tear seal, is a tear seal, is a tear seal. It's a conservation based procedure that falls under the restoration umbrella and it is up to each collector to understand what this information actually means. To look past the color of the label, and appreciate what exactly was, or more importantly was not done to a book.

 

After seeing how much time and effort CGC, Matt and others put into retooling the Purple label a few years ago to not only better reflect the amount of restoration that was done, but also assign a grade to the quality of the work itself. Only to see the entire thing scrapped, does not bode well for another attempt, even a minor one.

 

But I sure appreciate your thought process.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

 

 

 

[OldGuy]

.....it is up to each collector to understand what this information actually means. To look past the color of the label, and appreciate what exactly was, or more importantly was not done to a book.

 

But I don't want to have to think for myself, I want CGC to do it for me. As a matter of fact, in a perfect world, CGC would grade my comic, photo copy it, store the comic away for safe keeping and send me a slab with a label and photo copy in place of the comic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. 10%]

Another interesting set of questions/ideas in your last post, you sure covered a lot of ground while trying to "keep it simple" It's hard to not become convoluted while trying to get even a simple point across given the subject matter.

 

One thing caught my eye though.

 

To me, it would be huge progress if just CGC could keep everything exactly as it is with one tiny change: Instead of always putting "restoration" on the purple label, I'd like them to put "conservation" if the only "work" they detected was a reversible spine repair with Japanese paper. If I saw a purple holder with "conservation" on the label and knew that the conservation could be reversed, I would without a doubt pay more than if I saw exactly the same book in a purple holder with "restoration" on the label.

 

Again, this is already in place with the current PLOD.(except of course for the word Conservation) If a PLOD says "Slight P. Tear seal to cover, reinforced spine" This tells everyone that the work done was minor, and the materials used were professional/reversible(for the most part)

 

Putting the word "Conservation" on the label might make the product less stigmatic to some, but at the end of the day a tear seal, is a tear seal, is a tear seal. It's a conservation based procedure that falls under the restoration umbrella and it is up to each collector to understand what this information actually means. To look past the color of the label, and appreciate what exactly was, or more importantly was not done to a book.

 

After seeing how much time and effort CGC, Matt and others put into retooling the Purple label a few years ago to not only better reflect the amount of restoration that was done, but also assign a grade to the quality of the work itself. Only to see the entire thing scrapped, does not bode well for another attempt, even a minor one.

 

But I sure appreciate your thought process.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if people sitting on SA or GA plods (especially keys) are currently withholding these books from the marketplace? Correct me if I am wrong but compared to a few years ago there seem to be a lot less SA and GA plods for sale these days. If holders of these book are reluctant to sell, the logic could be something like this: 'well if I put this book up for sale I can expect to get around 5-15% of blue label FMV. So in stead of taking this plod-generated stigma-payment for these books, they simply prefer to just sit on them. Plain'n simple (thumbs u

 

 

[MrBedrock]

Another interesting set of questions/ideas in your last post, you sure covered a lot of ground while trying to "keep it simple" It's hard to not become convoluted while trying to get even a simple point across given the subject matter.

 

One thing caught my eye though.

 

To me, it would be huge progress if just CGC could keep everything exactly as it is with one tiny change: Instead of always putting "restoration" on the purple label, I'd like them to put "conservation" if the only "work" they detected was a reversible spine repair with Japanese paper. If I saw a purple holder with "conservation" on the label and knew that the conservation could be reversed, I would without a doubt pay more than if I saw exactly the same book in a purple holder with "restoration" on the label.

 

Again, this is already in place with the current PLOD.(except of course for the word Conservation) If a PLOD says "Slight P. Tear seal to cover, reinforced spine" This tells everyone that the work done was minor, and the materials used were professional/reversible(for the most part)

 

Putting the word "Conservation" on the label might make the product less stigmatic to some, but at the end of the day a tear seal, is a tear seal, is a tear seal. It's a conservation based procedure that falls under the restoration umbrella and it is up to each collector to understand what this information actually means. To look past the color of the label, and appreciate what exactly was, or more importantly was not done to a book.

 

After seeing how much time and effort CGC, Matt and others put into retooling the Purple label a few years ago to not only better reflect the amount of restoration that was done, but also assign a grade to the quality of the work itself. Only to see the entire thing scrapped, does not bode well for another attempt, even a minor one.

 

But I sure appreciate your thought process.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if people sitting on SA or GA plods (especially keys) are currently withholding these books from the marketplace? Correct me if I am wrong but compared to a few years ago there seem to be a lot less SA and GA plods for sale these days. If holders of these book are reluctant to sell, the logic could be something like this: 'well if I put this book up for sale I can expect to get around 5-15% of blue label FMV. So in stead of taking this plod-generated stigma-payment for these books, they simply prefer to just sit on them. Plain'n simple (thumbs u

 

Hopefully I can explain this clearly without causing too much of a ruckus....

I think a fairly large percentage of CGC labeled restored books tend to get cracked out of those holders. And I am not talking about the Robojo's or other non-disclosing scam artists of the world. For many different reasons purple labeled books get cracked. Most of the folks that I know that buy golden age PLODs are slab crackers for their own collections. Those books do change hands from time to time, even here on the boards, out of the slab, with label present...thus fully disclosed.

There are also a large number of collectors who have no desire in general for a slabbed book. So any comic which is CGC graded is automatically rejected because of the perception that it is too expensive. That includes PLODs. So even though a CGC graded PLOD is usually cheap (and has the benefit of complete disclosure) there are a large number of casual collectors who will dismiss them out of hand, simply because of the slab. Hard to fathom, but very true. For that reason many dealers will crack out PLODs and resell them raw with full disclosure. There is actually a larger market for them raw then slabbed. And the prices realized for raw restored books with a complete discription of the restoration are usually higher than an identical book slabbed. At least that has been my experience.

[PovertyRow]

Hopefully I can explain this clearly without causing too much of a ruckus....

I think a fairly large percentage of CGC labeled restored books tend to get cracked out of those holders. And I am not talking about the Robojo's or other non-disclosing scam artists of the world. For many different reasons purple labeled books get cracked. Most of the folks that I know that buy golden age PLODs are slab crackers for their own collections. Those books do change hands from time to time, even here on the boards, out of the slab, with label present...thus fully disclosed.

There are also a large number of collectors who have no desire in general for a slabbed book. So any comic which is CGC graded is automatically rejected because of the perception that it is too expensive. That includes PLODs. So even though a CGC graded PLOD is usually cheap (and has the benefit of complete disclosure) there are a large number of casual collectors who will dismiss them out of hand, simply because of the slab. Hard to fathom, but very true. For that reason many dealers will crack out PLODs and resell them raw with full disclosure. There is actually a larger market for them raw then slabbed. And the prices realized for raw restored books with a complete discription of the restoration are usually higher than an identical book slabbed. At least that has been my experience.

 

Richard is certainly on to something. I know some folks here keep there eye out for PLODS, especially for books they otherwise could not afford. They also realize that the PLOD is probably going to describe the extent of restoration as opposed to buying a raw restored on, say, eBay with no restoration info beyond what is in the description. While folks would appreciate the book being described as restored, I am sure they are also wondering what other restoration may be there either undisclosed or not detected by the seller.

 

So once the PLOD is in their hands, deslabbing is very likely, because in these cases, the CGC slab is actually fulfilling one of its original purposes: as a vehicle for the seller and buyer to "insure" a grade. When I first heard about CGC in Boston when Steve B was soliciting books from dealers before CGC went public, my first reaction was that as well. I chatted with Steve about it. He agreed that was a main idea. My own sense was, if I ever started getting the really pricey books, CGC would be the way to go and that I would deslab (regardless of label color) after receiving it. I did do that with a few HG pre-code horror books I got. They looked wicked out of the slab. Much brighter!

[Ze-man]

 

Hopefully I can explain this clearly without causing too much of a ruckus....

I think a fairly large percentage of CGC labeled restored books tend to get cracked out of those holders. And I am not talking about the Robojo's or other non-disclosing scam artists of the world. For many different reasons purple labeled books get cracked. Most of the folks that I know that buy golden age PLODs are slab crackers for their own collections. Those books do change hands from time to time, even here on the boards, out of the slab, with label present...thus fully disclosed.

There are also a large number of collectors who have no desire in general for a slabbed book. So any comic which is CGC graded is automatically rejected because of the perception that it is too expensive. That includes PLODs. So even though a CGC graded PLOD is usually cheap (and has the benefit of complete disclosure) there are a large number of casual collectors who will dismiss them out of hand, simply because of the slab. Hard to fathom, but very true. For that reason many dealers will crack out PLODs and resell them raw with full disclosure. There is actually a larger market for them raw then slabbed. And the prices realized for raw restored books with a complete discription of the restoration are usually higher than an identical book slabbed. At least that has been my experience.

 

A little, tiny ruckus would have been nice given how quiet this sub forum is, but all you did was raise several rational observations that left little room for ruckus making.

 

I have a couple questions though. (after removing the people who simply don't like to buy books sitting in a plastic slab)

 

Was your post geared towards in person sales of raw, restored books, as opposed to online/auction/third party type? Reason I ask is the cost of certification, it becomes part of the cost of the book at that point doesn't it? Especially on really big books. At what point does cracking the book out trump the liquidity a CGC slab provides?

 

Also, do cracked, restored books sell better at a Convention for the most part because people can see the book in hand, open it, smell it, and judge the quality of the resto work for themselves and better decide what it is worth to them? Compared to a book sitting in a slab, with nothing but notes to guide them?

 

I guess the question I am failing miserably to ask accurately, is it your experience that restored books sell better raw, in close circles? Or across the board as well?

 

Because I have found it an oddly mixed bag of clients wanting to restore books, and have them sent to CGC. Tempered with an equal number who just want the book restored, and sent back to them for their collection. But I have little first hand experience with how these books move on the market after the fact other then Auction site results.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ze-man]

.....it is up to each collector to understand what this information actually means. To look past the color of the label, and appreciate what exactly was, or more importantly was not done to a book.

 

But I don't want to have to think for myself, I want CGC to do it for me. As a matter of fact, in a perfect world, CGC would grade my comic, photo copy it, store the comic away for safe keeping and send me a slab with a label and photo copy in place of the comic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You best be quiet, or I will tell everyone you had a book conserved and ruin your rep.

[FFB]

Another interesting set of questions/ideas in your last post, you sure covered a lot of ground while trying to "keep it simple" It's hard to not become convoluted while trying to get even a simple point across given the subject matter.

 

One thing caught my eye though.

 

To me, it would be huge progress if just CGC could keep everything exactly as it is with one tiny change: Instead of always putting "restoration" on the purple label, I'd like them to put "conservation" if the only "work" they detected was a reversible spine repair with Japanese paper. If I saw a purple holder with "conservation" on the label and knew that the conservation could be reversed, I would without a doubt pay more than if I saw exactly the same book in a purple holder with "restoration" on the label.

 

Again, this is already in place with the current PLOD.(except of course for the word Conservation) If a PLOD says "Slight P. Tear seal to cover, reinforced spine" This tells everyone that the work done was minor, and the materials used were professional/reversible(for the most part)

 

Putting the word "Conservation" on the label might make the product less stigmatic to some, but at the end of the day a tear seal, is a tear seal, is a tear seal. It's a conservation based procedure that falls under the restoration umbrella and it is up to each collector to understand what this information actually means. To look past the color of the label, and appreciate what exactly was, or more importantly was not done to a book.

 

After seeing how much time and effort CGC, Matt and others put into retooling the Purple label a few years ago to not only better reflect the amount of restoration that was done, but also assign a grade to the quality of the work itself. Only to see the entire thing scrapped, does not bode well for another attempt, even a minor one.

 

But I sure appreciate your thought process.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

 

I wonder if people sitting on SA or GA plods (especially keys) are currently withholding these books from the marketplace? Correct me if I am wrong but compared to a few years ago there seem to be a lot less SA and GA plods for sale these days. If holders of these book are reluctant to sell, the logic could be something like this: 'well if I put this book up for sale I can expect to get around 5-15% of blue label FMV. So in stead of taking this plod-generated stigma-payment for these books, they simply prefer to just sit on them. Plain'n simple (thumbs u

 

 

I think that, in addition to the points others have raised, there is the tendency for people who buy restored books to purchase such books for their permanent collection rather than to turn around and flip for a quick profit. Plenty of people who don't buy restored books are also not flippers, but in my experience, people who buy restored books tend to buy for their collections on a longer term basis, and not to resell any time soon.

[MrBedrock]

 

Hopefully I can explain this clearly without causing too much of a ruckus....

I think a fairly large percentage of CGC labeled restored books tend to get cracked out of those holders. And I am not talking about the Robojo's or other non-disclosing scam artists of the world. For many different reasons purple labeled books get cracked. Most of the folks that I know that buy golden age PLODs are slab crackers for their own collections. Those books do change hands from time to time, even here on the boards, out of the slab, with label present...thus fully disclosed.

There are also a large number of collectors who have no desire in general for a slabbed book. So any comic which is CGC graded is automatically rejected because of the perception that it is too expensive. That includes PLODs. So even though a CGC graded PLOD is usually cheap (and has the benefit of complete disclosure) there are a large number of casual collectors who will dismiss them out of hand, simply because of the slab. Hard to fathom, but very true. For that reason many dealers will crack out PLODs and resell them raw with full disclosure. There is actually a larger market for them raw then slabbed. And the prices realized for raw restored books with a complete discription of the restoration are usually higher than an identical book slabbed. At least that has been my experience.

 

A little, tiny ruckus would have been nice given how quiet this sub forum is, but all you did was raise several rational observations that left little room for ruckus making.

 

I have a couple questions though. (after removing the people who simply don't like to buy books sitting in a plastic slab)

 

Was your post geared towards in person sales of raw, restored books, as opposed to online/auction/third party type? Reason I ask is the cost of certification, it becomes part of the cost of the book at that point doesn't it? Especially on really big books. At what point does cracking the book out trump the liquidity a CGC slab provides?

 

Also, do cracked, restored books sell better at a Convention for the most part because people can see the book in hand, open it, smell it, and judge the quality of the resto work for themselves and better decide what it is worth to them? Compared to a book sitting in a slab, with nothing but notes to guide them?

 

I guess the question I am failing miserably to ask accurately, is it your experience that restored books sell better raw, in close circles? Or across the board as well?

 

Because I have found it an oddly mixed bag of clients wanting to restore books, and have them sent to CGC. Tempered with an equal number who just want the book restored, and sent back to them for their collection. But I have little first hand experience with how these books move on the market after the fact other then Auction site results.

Interesting points. I was more responding to the notion that there appear to be fewer PLODs available through various sales sites, be it auction or static. I think my response was more a general observation, and maybe a little biased towards my particular set of circumstances - in-store sales, convention sales, limited mail order sales through our site, and a few sales through third-party sites. In my experience, other than through C-Link or Heritage which virtually demand a book be slabbed for sale, I have better luck selling restored books raw. There are a few reasons for that, not the least of which is the fact that most collectors who would consider purchasing a restored book do want to put their hands on it, touch it, smell it, thumb it up, etc.

 

As to your point that the cost of certification becoming a part of the cost of the book. I couldn't disagree more. The CGC process does have a cost, but that cost is simply for verification. With high grade unrestored stuff that verification leads to higher prices and thus is necessary to achieve them. Because of this there is a perception for many folks that the holder itself therefore has some value. But with restored comics the verification process does not lead to any difference in price (assuming that the submitter knows about the restoration before submission). It could be argued that the verification process actually limits the marketability of the comic inside. A CGC Restored holder becomes a perceptual dilemma for a buyer. On the one hand they see that a book is restored but can't touch the book inside to see what is actually done to it. On the other hand they see a CGC holder and assume that there is an increased price because of it's presence.

[Ze-man]

 

As to your point that the cost of certification becoming a part of the cost of the book. I couldn't disagree more. The CGC process does have a cost, but that cost is simply for verification. With high grade unrestored stuff that verification leads to higher prices and thus is necessary to achieve them. Because of this there is a perception for many folks that the holder itself therefore has some value. But with restored comics the verification process does not lead to any difference in price (assuming that the submitter knows about the restoration before submission). It could be argued that the verification process actually limits the marketability of the comic inside. A CGC Restored holder becomes a perceptual dilemma for a buyer. On the one hand they see that a book is restored but can't touch the book inside to see what is actually done to it. On the other hand they see a CGC holder and assume that there is an increased price because of it's presence.

 

I didn't mean to imply certification in itself automatically increases the value of a restored book( perceived or otherwise) just because it's sitting in plastic with an assigned grade.

 

I was speaking more to the actual cost of slabbing big dollar, key books, which can get expensive. And when (if ever) does it not make financial sense to crack out the book if the buyer/owner has any intentions at some point of flipping it on a site that requires certification, even if the buyer would rather thumb up the book and use the plastic slab as a coaster?

 

Restored books seems like they can present dilemmas for both buyer, and seller alike depending on their situation, and perhaps even the book itself.

 

Or is that all part of the restored market?, buying, selling, restoring, cracking, slabbing. Round and round the book goes depending on what potential a buyer/owner sees and where it's for sale?

 

My post appears to make less, and less sense the more I keep typing. I mainly just wanted to clarify, or better understand better at what point does the certification cost itself become part of the equation of whether or not to crack out a book? Regardless of the buyer/sellers personal preference

 

And sorry to Susan for derailing her thread somewhat. Sometimes these side conversations just spring up on their own

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tabcom]

I would consider myself a typical collector that would agree with this point . . .

 

. . . A CGC Restored holder becomes a perceptual dilemma for a buyer. On the one hand they see that a book is restored but can't touch the book inside to see what is actually done to it. On the other hand they see a CGC holder and assume that there is an increased price because of it's presence.

 

Cracking open cases is not a problem with me, up to a certain price point. I've been holding DC#18 for over a year now, wondering if I should crack and examine in hand.

 

 

I'm getting the feeling its ok to do so now.

 

[VintageComics]

I'm getting the feeling its ok to do so now.

 

Crack it, flip through it, smell it and read it. As far as I'm concerned, there is no greater pleasure in the hobby than to relive what it was like to be a kid 70 years ago.

 

(thumbs u

[tabcom]

I think it is odd that so few cracked books with the CGC Label are offered for resale. It seems to be the collecting standard to have a book re-slabbed before putting it back on the market. Which seems like a waste of time and money. From what I'm reading here, it is ok not to have to re-submit.

 

Personally, I would like to see all cracked books with CGC label inserted in the back of the bag being the industry standard -- without the fear that the seller is taking a hit on the sales price.

[FFB]

I would consider myself a typical collector that would agree with this point . . .

 

. . . A CGC Restored holder becomes a perceptual dilemma for a buyer. On the one hand they see that a book is restored but can't touch the book inside to see what is actually done to it. On the other hand they see a CGC holder and assume that there is an increased price because of it's presence.

 

Cracking open cases is not a problem with me, up to a certain price point. I've been holding DC#18 for over a year now, wondering if I should crack and examine in hand.

 

 

I'm getting the feeling its ok to do so now.

 

That is my favorite comic cover of all time. I have a large recreation that Creig Flessel did for me before he died (and also a recreation of Tec 15) which my two sons will fight over some day to determine who gets which one.

 

It's a gorgeous book. I could not care less about the color of the label. I would be proud to own it!

[tabcom]

Thanks, EffEffBee.

 

In the spirit of the current discussion, how would you feel about cracking open a restored comic book from its holder if you owned one?

[divad]

Thanks, EffEffBee.

 

In the spirit of the current discussion, how would you feel about cracking open a restored comic book from its holder if you owned one?

 

Scott (FFB), Jim and I cracked open an Amazing Fantasy #15 of his a few years back - I forget the details, but it was a serious frankenbook

[divad]

which my two sons will fight over some day to determine who gets which one.

 

 

Ah! So that's what you've been up to!

[OldGuy]

.....it is up to each collector to understand what this information actually means. To look past the color of the label, and appreciate what exactly was, or more importantly was not done to a book.

 

But I don't want to have to think for myself, I want CGC to do it for me. As a matter of fact, in a perfect world, CGC would grade my comic, photo copy it, store the comic away for safe keeping and send me a slab with a label and photo copy in place of the comic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You best be quiet, or I will tell everyone you had a book conserved and ruin your rep.

 

You know I've never had a problem with restoration. My problem is with undisclosed restoration. (thumbs u

 

And thanks again for the beautiful work.

[Ze-man]

You know I've never had a problem with restoration. My problem is with undisclosed restoration. (thumbs u

 

 

I know Brian, but can see how others might take my joke otherwise.

 

And whatever do you mean by undisclosed restoration?