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Dead Beat Bidder AF 15

Started by pc1009,

3,340 posts in this topic

Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted
This is quite silly.

 

The mods, if they wanted to, could have locked this down a long time ago. It's obviously not going to get locked unless someone mentions Hitler.

 

As long as no one mentions Hitler, this thread will just continue on and on with useless posts and half-nekkid women pics.

 

Someone please mention Hitler and let's get this thread shut down.

 

Even Hitler would be happy if the thread got either deleted or locked.

 

Hitler just wants it to stop!!! :frustrated:

 

Umm....no.

 

But almost.

 

(tsk)

 

 

I fear to post this. For if this, the finest piece of Western Music ever written, resides here the Mods may decide to selectively delete posts and leave this thread infinitely alive.

 

 

Mozart is magnificent but I have always been more of a Bach guy.

 

:foryou:

 

Brandenburg concertos, Toccato and Fugue in D minor and everything else that boy had a hand in.

 

OK, I'm a sucker for Vivaldi too.

 

:pullhair:

 

Mozart is perfect. Bach isn't. I prefer imperfect because it reflects our imperfect humanity.

 

 

In western Music I prefer only specific pieces: Mozart's Requiem actually IS my favorite. It is transcendental.

 

But my favorite music is the Classical North Indian. 80-90% improvised yet improvsed within such a structure that the slightest mistake is immediately perceived.

 

Aside form my teacher, one of my favorites is Asad Ali KHan, who passed away just a few months ago.

 

Here is a short sample of his playing covering slow, fast and composition with drum. This performance lasted about an hour, so the clip is quite limited. But to the Western ear it is usually more than enough.

 

(yes, this is the instrument I study)

 

 

Of course it reminds me of....

 

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
This is quite silly.

 

The mods, if they wanted to, could have locked this down a long time ago. It's obviously not going to get locked unless someone mentions Hitler.

 

As long as no one mentions Hitler, this thread will just continue on and on with useless posts and half-nekkid women pics.

 

Someone please mention Hitler and let's get this thread shut down.

 

Even Hitler would be happy if the thread got either deleted or locked.

 

Hitler just wants it to stop!!! :frustrated:

 

Umm....no.

 

But almost.

 

(tsk)

 

 

I fear to post this. For if this, the finest piece of Western Music ever written, resides here the Mods may decide to selectively delete posts and leave this thread infinitely alive.

 

 

Mozart is magnificent but I have always been more of a Bach guy.

 

:foryou:

 

Brandenburg concertos, Toccato and Fugue in D minor and everything else that boy had a hand in.

 

OK, I'm a sucker for Vivaldi too.

 

:pullhair:

 

Mozart is perfect. Bach isn't. I prefer imperfect because it reflects our imperfect humanity.

 

 

In western Music I prefer only specific pieces: Mozart's Requiem actually IS my favorite. It is transcendental.

 

But my favorite music is the Classical North Indian. 80-90% improvised yet improvsed within such a structure that the slightest mistake is immediately perceived.

 

Aside form my teacher, one of my favorites is Asad Ali KHan, who passed away just a few months ago.

 

Here is a short sample of his playing covering slow, fast and composition with drum. This performance lasted about an hour, so the clip is quite limited. But to the Western ear it is usually more than enough.

 

(yes, this is the instrument I study)

 

 

Of course it reminds me of....

 

 

Regrettably, thye way the Beatles used sitar and also esraj tend to represent the Western ear's perception. I was saddened by this realization.

 

But to delve further, the music I study is dhrupad. The Beatles was a faux-kheyal based music.

 

Dhrupad is far more ancient, going back millenia. While Kheyal is a mere one and a half centuries old.

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
This is quite silly.

 

The mods, if they wanted to, could have locked this down a long time ago. It's obviously not going to get locked unless someone mentions Hitler.

 

As long as no one mentions Hitler, this thread will just continue on and on with useless posts and half-nekkid women pics.

 

Someone please mention Hitler and let's get this thread shut down.

 

Even Hitler would be happy if the thread got either deleted or locked.

 

Hitler just wants it to stop!!! :frustrated:

 

Umm....no.

 

But almost.

 

(tsk)

 

 

I fear to post this. For if this, the finest piece of Western Music ever written, resides here the Mods may decide to selectively delete posts and leave this thread infinitely alive.

 

 

Mozart is magnificent but I have always been more of a Bach guy.

 

:foryou:

 

Brandenburg concertos, Toccato and Fugue in D minor and everything else that boy had a hand in.

 

OK, I'm a sucker for Vivaldi too.

 

:pullhair:

 

Mozart is perfect. Bach isn't. I prefer imperfect because it reflects our imperfect humanity.

 

 

In western Music I prefer only specific pieces: Mozart's Requiem actually IS my favorite. It is transcendental.

 

But my favorite music is the Classical North Indian. 80-90% improvised yet improvsed within such a structure that the slightest mistake is immediately perceived.

 

Aside form my teacher, one of my favorites is Asad Ali KHan, who passed away just a few months ago.

 

Here is a short sample of his playing covering slow, fast and composition with drum. This performance lasted about an hour, so the clip is quite limited. But to the Western ear it is usually more than enough.

 

(yes, this is the instrument I study)

 

 

Of course it reminds me of....

 

 

Regrettably, thye way the Beatles used sitar and also esraj tend to represent the Western ear's perception. I was saddened by this realization.

 

But to delve further, the music I study is dhrupad. The Beatles was a faux-kheyal based music.

 

Dhrupad is far more ancient, going back millenia. While Kheyal is a mere one and a half centuries old.

 

Here is a more contemporary, kheyal form played on sitar. It is lighter and more rhythmic than on the rudra veena of my previous video.

 

If any musicians are reading this I encourage you to listen to even the first minute.

 

On the sitar (which I also study), as with my rudra veena, sliding aloing the fret for four or five pitches is the norm. Lets see the guitarists do that!

 

This is Nikhil Banerjee - he died far too young of heart failure. One of the absolute greatest sitar players to ever live. He was a friend to my teacher. I met him in the green room in New York before a concert. He gave me on of his cigarettes. A gentle, very humble man who had insane chops.

 

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted
This is quite silly.

 

The mods, if they wanted to, could have locked this down a long time ago. It's obviously not going to get locked unless someone mentions Hitler.

 

As long as no one mentions Hitler, this thread will just continue on and on with useless posts and half-nekkid women pics.

 

Someone please mention Hitler and let's get this thread shut down.

 

Even Hitler would be happy if the thread got either deleted or locked.

 

Hitler just wants it to stop!!! :frustrated:

 

Umm....no.

 

But almost.

 

(tsk)

 

 

I fear to post this. For if this, the finest piece of Western Music ever written, resides here the Mods may decide to selectively delete posts and leave this thread infinitely alive.

 

 

Mozart is magnificent but I have always been more of a Bach guy.

 

:foryou:

 

Brandenburg concertos, Toccato and Fugue in D minor and everything else that boy had a hand in.

 

OK, I'm a sucker for Vivaldi too.

 

:pullhair:

 

Mozart is perfect. Bach isn't. I prefer imperfect because it reflects our imperfect humanity.

 

 

In western Music I prefer only specific pieces: Mozart's Requiem actually IS my favorite. It is transcendental.

 

But my favorite music is the Classical North Indian. 80-90% improvised yet improvsed within such a structure that the slightest mistake is immediately perceived.

 

Aside form my teacher, one of my favorites is Asad Ali KHan, who passed away just a few months ago.

 

Here is a short sample of his playing covering slow, fast and composition with drum. This performance lasted about an hour, so the clip is quite limited. But to the Western ear it is usually more than enough.

 

(yes, this is the instrument I study)

 

 

Of course it reminds me of....

 

 

Regrettably, thye way the Beatles used sitar and also esraj tend to represent the Western ear's perception. I was saddened by this realization.

 

But to delve further, the music I study is dhrupad. The Beatles was a faux-kheyal based music.

 

Dhrupad is far more ancient, going back millenia. While Kheyal is a mere one and a half centuries old.

 

Oh for sure. It's very difficult to break out of the mold and acquire new perceptions. But I think what the Beatles did was beautiful fusion. It's amazing that rock could accommodate these new sounds and beats...even if highly Westernized. I wish there were more experimentation like this, rather than digging the same old trenches ever deeper.

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
This is quite silly.

 

The mods, if they wanted to, could have locked this down a long time ago. It's obviously not going to get locked unless someone mentions Hitler.

 

As long as no one mentions Hitler, this thread will just continue on and on with useless posts and half-nekkid women pics.

 

Someone please mention Hitler and let's get this thread shut down.

 

Even Hitler would be happy if the thread got either deleted or locked.

 

Hitler just wants it to stop!!! :frustrated:

 

Umm....no.

 

But almost.

 

(tsk)

 

 

I fear to post this. For if this, the finest piece of Western Music ever written, resides here the Mods may decide to selectively delete posts and leave this thread infinitely alive.

 

 

Mozart is magnificent but I have always been more of a Bach guy.

 

:foryou:

 

Brandenburg concertos, Toccato and Fugue in D minor and everything else that boy had a hand in.

 

OK, I'm a sucker for Vivaldi too.

 

:pullhair:

 

Mozart is perfect. Bach isn't. I prefer imperfect because it reflects our imperfect humanity.

 

 

In western Music I prefer only specific pieces: Mozart's Requiem actually IS my favorite. It is transcendental.

 

But my favorite music is the Classical North Indian. 80-90% improvised yet improvsed within such a structure that the slightest mistake is immediately perceived.

 

Aside form my teacher, one of my favorites is Asad Ali KHan, who passed away just a few months ago.

 

Here is a short sample of his playing covering slow, fast and composition with drum. This performance lasted about an hour, so the clip is quite limited. But to the Western ear it is usually more than enough.

 

(yes, this is the instrument I study)

 

 

Of course it reminds me of....

 

 

Regrettably, thye way the Beatles used sitar and also esraj tend to represent the Western ear's perception. I was saddened by this realization.

 

But to delve further, the music I study is dhrupad. The Beatles was a faux-kheyal based music.

 

Dhrupad is far more ancient, going back millenia. While Kheyal is a mere one and a half centuries old.

 

Oh for sure. It's very difficult to break out of the mold and acquire new perceptions. But I think what the Beatles did was beautiful fusion. It's amazing that rock could accommodate these new sounds and beats...even if highly Westernized. I wish there were more experimentation like this, rather than digging the same old trenches ever deeper.

 

It wasn't fusion. It is impossible to have fusion with Classical North Indian Music. The main reason being, that every raga (think of a raga as a formal music set like, for example, a sonata) has such strict rules, although mostly improvised, that as soon as you break the rules you lose the raga. So what is fused? Just a "sound". But the music itself is totally lost then.

 

But I have to respect your post and your sentiments: When you say "It's amazing that rock could accommodate these new sounds and beats...even if highly Westernized. I wish there were more experimentation like this, rather than digging the same old trenches ever deeper." it makes me think well of you.

 

Do you play music?

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted
This is quite silly.

 

The mods, if they wanted to, could have locked this down a long time ago. It's obviously not going to get locked unless someone mentions Hitler.

 

As long as no one mentions Hitler, this thread will just continue on and on with useless posts and half-nekkid women pics.

 

Someone please mention Hitler and let's get this thread shut down.

 

Even Hitler would be happy if the thread got either deleted or locked.

 

Hitler just wants it to stop!!! :frustrated:

 

Umm....no.

 

But almost.

 

(tsk)

 

 

I fear to post this. For if this, the finest piece of Western Music ever written, resides here the Mods may decide to selectively delete posts and leave this thread infinitely alive.

 

 

Mozart is magnificent but I have always been more of a Bach guy.

 

:foryou:

 

Brandenburg concertos, Toccato and Fugue in D minor and everything else that boy had a hand in.

 

OK, I'm a sucker for Vivaldi too.

 

:pullhair:

 

Mozart is perfect. Bach isn't. I prefer imperfect because it reflects our imperfect humanity.

 

 

In western Music I prefer only specific pieces: Mozart's Requiem actually IS my favorite. It is transcendental.

 

But my favorite music is the Classical North Indian. 80-90% improvised yet improvsed within such a structure that the slightest mistake is immediately perceived.

 

Aside form my teacher, one of my favorites is Asad Ali KHan, who passed away just a few months ago.

 

Here is a short sample of his playing covering slow, fast and composition with drum. This performance lasted about an hour, so the clip is quite limited. But to the Western ear it is usually more than enough.

 

(yes, this is the instrument I study)

 

 

Of course it reminds me of....

 

 

Regrettably, thye way the Beatles used sitar and also esraj tend to represent the Western ear's perception. I was saddened by this realization.

 

But to delve further, the music I study is dhrupad. The Beatles was a faux-kheyal based music.

 

Dhrupad is far more ancient, going back millenia. While Kheyal is a mere one and a half centuries old.

 

Here is a more contemporary, kheyal form played on sitar. It is lighter and more rhythmic than on the rudra veena of my previous video.

 

If any musicians are reading this I encourage you to listen to even the first minute.

 

On the sitar (which I also study), as with my rudra veena, sliding aloing the fret for four or five pitches is the norm. Lets see the guitarists do that!

 

This is Nikhil Banerjee - he died far too young of heart failure. One of the absolute greatest sitar players to ever live. He was a friend to my teacher. I met him in the green room in New York before a concert. He gave me on of his cigarettes. A gentle, very humble man who had insane chops.

 

 

It's beautiful. The extreme string bending allows for a lot of emotion. It's very bluesy to my ears. It's weird...I'm surrounded by Indian/Pakistani people, but none of them listen to this kind of music...they seem to be hooked on their own versions of pop music...which I'm not all that fond.

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted

It's beautiful. The extreme string bending allows for a lot of emotion. It's very bluesy to my ears. It's weird...I'm surrounded by Indian/Pakistani people, but none of them listen to this kind of music...they seem to be hooked on their own versions of pop music...which I'm not all that fond.

 

The string bending does. It is also damned hard on the fingers!

 

Don't be surprised by the Indian/Pakistani reaction to this music. Essentially it is like Western Classical music. Talk to most Westerners and they cannot name cellists, violinists, etc for the most part. They may recognize a few popularized pices like Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture or Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. But even then only the more famous portions.

 

Same thing in India/Pakistan. Pop music is king there, just as here. The funny thing is that a lot of pop music is based in the classical ragas. But the listeners are not aware of it.

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted
This is quite silly.

 

The mods, if they wanted to, could have locked this down a long time ago. It's obviously not going to get locked unless someone mentions Hitler.

 

As long as no one mentions Hitler, this thread will just continue on and on with useless posts and half-nekkid women pics.

 

Someone please mention Hitler and let's get this thread shut down.

 

Even Hitler would be happy if the thread got either deleted or locked.

 

Hitler just wants it to stop!!! :frustrated:

 

Umm....no.

 

But almost.

 

(tsk)

 

 

I fear to post this. For if this, the finest piece of Western Music ever written, resides here the Mods may decide to selectively delete posts and leave this thread infinitely alive.

 

 

Mozart is magnificent but I have always been more of a Bach guy.

 

:foryou:

 

Brandenburg concertos, Toccato and Fugue in D minor and everything else that boy had a hand in.

 

OK, I'm a sucker for Vivaldi too.

 

:pullhair:

 

Mozart is perfect. Bach isn't. I prefer imperfect because it reflects our imperfect humanity.

 

 

In western Music I prefer only specific pieces: Mozart's Requiem actually IS my favorite. It is transcendental.

 

But my favorite music is the Classical North Indian. 80-90% improvised yet improvsed within such a structure that the slightest mistake is immediately perceived.

 

Aside form my teacher, one of my favorites is Asad Ali KHan, who passed away just a few months ago.

 

Here is a short sample of his playing covering slow, fast and composition with drum. This performance lasted about an hour, so the clip is quite limited. But to the Western ear it is usually more than enough.

 

(yes, this is the instrument I study)

 

 

Of course it reminds me of....

 

 

Regrettably, thye way the Beatles used sitar and also esraj tend to represent the Western ear's perception. I was saddened by this realization.

 

But to delve further, the music I study is dhrupad. The Beatles was a faux-kheyal based music.

 

Dhrupad is far more ancient, going back millenia. While Kheyal is a mere one and a half centuries old.

 

Oh for sure. It's very difficult to break out of the mold and acquire new perceptions. But I think what the Beatles did was beautiful fusion. It's amazing that rock could accommodate these new sounds and beats...even if highly Westernized. I wish there were more experimentation like this, rather than digging the same old trenches ever deeper.

 

It wasn't fusion. It is impossible to have fusion with Classical North Indian Music. The main reason being, that every raga (think of a raga as a formal music set like, for example, a sonata) has such strict rules, although mostly improvised, that as soon as you break the rules you lose the raga. So what is fused? Just a "sound". But the music itself is totally lost then.

 

But I have to respect your post and your sentiments: When you say "It's amazing that rock could accommodate these new sounds and beats...even if highly Westernized. I wish there were more experimentation like this, rather than digging the same old trenches ever deeper." it makes me think well of you.

 

Do you play music?

 

You're right. It's just a fusion of sound in the most basic sense. But the Beatles were my first exposure to it. I love musical fusion. It's akin to hybrid vigor in my opinion. New strength and perspective comes from it.

 

Yeah, I've played guitar all my life, although not much lately. I started out on the violin.

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
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Don't be surprised by the Indian/Pakistani reaction to this music. Essentially it is like Western Classical music. Talk to most Westerners and they cannot name cellists, violinists, etc for the most part. They may recognize a few popularized pices like Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture or Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. But even then only the more famous portions.

 

Same thing in India/Pakistan. Pop music is king there, just as here. The funny thing is that a lot of pop music is based in the classical ragas. But the listeners are not aware of it.

 

I suspected this might be the case, but I wasn't sure. I hope it isn't in danger of being lost.

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

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Posted

Actually the Beatles brought the sound to my ear. Seeing a Ravi Shankar concert in 1973 I thought it was just "interesting". But interesting enough to make me buy one record. I bought the right one (or the wrong one based on perception) because that was the one Ravi Shankar record that made me say "I HAVE to learn this instrument". A most compelling raga called Malkauns. Intended to be played from midnight to 3AM and elictiting deep feelings.

 

It ihas a pentatonic scale in both ascent and descent:

 

C, E-flat, F, A-flat, B-flat

 

Very heady. Here is an example of Malkauns in its darkness. (the first couple of mins are tuning as it is a live performance)

 

 

A week later I had a sitar and a teacher. He is still my teacher to this day - first for sitar and later for the rudra veena.

 

The violin is also used as a solo instrument in Indian Classical Music, especially because of the ability to do those long slides. There is a European woman who p[lays the older dhrupad on cello - also most effective as the older dhrupad is pitched lower (for example, my sitar has C# as the tonic but my rudra veena has G (below middle C) as the tonic).

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
Don't be surprised by the Indian/Pakistani reaction to this music. Essentially it is like Western Classical music. Talk to most Westerners and they cannot name cellists, violinists, etc for the most part. They may recognize a few popularized pices like Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture or Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. But even then only the more famous portions.

 

Same thing in India/Pakistan. Pop music is king there, just as here. The funny thing is that a lot of pop music is based in the classical ragas. But the listeners are not aware of it.

 

I suspected this might be the case, but I wasn't sure. I hope it isn't in danger of being lost.

 

Funny you say that. Some feel it is being lost. The most popular modern performers tend to go for the super-fast stuff, when the core of the music is found in the slower parts (the music is broken up into slow, medium and fast solo movements followed by a section with the drums which can be either a relatively brief medium piece (the dhrupad of my veena) or a slow, medium and fast piece (sitar etc. playing kheyal style). An average performance of either kheyal or dhrupad, done right, lasts 45 minutes to an hour or more for one piece.

 

The slower, more meditative dhrupad was almost lost but now it is having a resurgence of popularity. Oddly, much of that is in the West.

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted

Actually the Beatles brought the sound to my ear. Seeing a Ravi Shankar concert in 1973 I thought it was just "interesting". But interesting enough to make me buy one record. I bought the right one (or the wrong one based on perception) because that was the one Ravi Shankar record that made me say "I HAVE to learn this instrument". A most compelling raga called Malkauns. Intended to be played from midnight to 3AM and elictiting deep feelings.

 

It ihas a pentatonic scale in both ascent and descent:

 

C, E-flat, F, A-flat, B-flat

 

Very heady. Here is an example of Malkauns in its darkness. (the first couple of mins are tuning as it is a live performance)

 

A week later I had a sitar and a teacher. He is still my teacher to this day - first for sitar and later for the rudra veena.

 

The violin is also used as a solo instrument in Indian Classical Music, especially because of the ability to do those long slides. There is a European woman who p[lays the older dhrupad on cello - also most effective as the older dhrupad is pitched lower (for example, my sitar has C# as the tonic but my rudra veena has G (below middle C) as the tonic).

 

I wonder if there is a Chinese influence to this music, or if there is a Chinese analog to this music and/or instruments. Are these all steel strings, or some other material?

 

You may think this is silly, but that piece immediately reminded me of Skip James. It's similar on some levels. Again, that bluesy sound in it that I seem to hear.

 

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

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Posted

I just listened to your piece again. The closest Western analog that comes to my mind is actually "Welcome to the Machine" by Pink Floyd. Don't hate me. :D I know it's very different in many complex ways. Funny though...we're all human...and there are so many common threads among cultures.

 

That's good stuff! I think it could grow on me.

 

Good Night.

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted

 

I wonder if there is a Chinese influence to this music, or if there is a Chinese analog to this music and/or instruments. Are these all steel strings, or some other material?

 

You may think this is silly, but that piece immediately reminded me of Skip James. It's similar on some levels. Again, that bluesy sound in it that I seem to hear.

 

 

Not silly. Many western musicians hear influences in Indian Classical music. It is a matter of perception and of how various notes are combined.

 

The roots of this music goes back to 1000 BC and earlier. Some say 2000BC and more.

 

Really not related to Chinese music. Except the scales may be less "Western" and more "Eastern". In Indian music the scale is broken out into 22 micro-tones (called srutis). Various Ragas, while having, for example, a "komal re" (the term fora flat 2nd - komal means flat) - that note may be a bit more flattened or sharpened depending on the raga that is being played.

 

BTW - the scale has a "sliding tonic". As I said earlier my sitar is tuned to C#. That means the first note of the scale is at C# and successive notes play off of it.

 

My veena is tuned to G, so the first note for its scale starts at G.

 

The rhythm is the most complex in the world. It is a cyclical pattern. While in the West we have, for example, 4/4 time - in Indian it would be called "Tintal" and consist of 4 sets of 4 beats. But being cyclical, after you reach the 16th beat, the cycle resumes at the first beat.

 

So the cycle would be

 

1-2-3-4

5-6-7-8

9-10-11-12

3-14-15-16

1-2-3-4

5-6-7-8 etc.

 

Musical ideas are intended to generally end on the first beat. Several cycles may go around but generally the first beat is where things end up (and often begin as well). Thus it is cyclical.

 

There are a huge number of rhythms:

 

Rupaktal is 7 beats counted 1-2-3 4-5 6-7 (3 beats 2 beats 2 beats)

 

Jhaptal is 10 beats counted 1-2 3-4-5 6-7 8-9-10 (2 beats 3 beats 2 beats 3 beats)

 

Dadra is six beats counted 1-2-3 4-5-6 (3 beats 3 beats)

 

On and on.

 

The most common for my veena is called chautal and is 12 beats (3 sets of 4 beats)

 

Then there are tihais - which are the same idea repeated 3 times that land on the first beat.

 

Then there are chakradar tihais - which is a tihai itself repeated 3 times that lands on the first beat.

 

It is a very formal music although, as I have said, is mostly improvised.

 

The cool thing is that, with all of the improvisation, a knowledgeable listener will know within the first minute or so what raga you are playing and if you deviate form its particular rules.

 

 

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