Eastern Color Proof/File Copies?

[fantastic_four]

Also, I don't believe Friesan nor Litch would call a book restored merely because of the stamp. Aside from my more-than-a-decade's worth of experience looking at and endeavoring to understand their work (learning restoration detection was the main reason I joined this forum and participated in it from 2002 through 2005 or so), in the case of trimming, they always tell you which edges are trimmed, and that fact alone rules out the possibility of them just blanket assuming there is restoration--they can't just assume Dupcak trimmed all three edges as he doesn't always do that, and I've seen multiple examples of them noting only one or two edges as trimmed on a Dupcak-restored book.

[JesterSB]

And that bottom edge definitely looks trimmed from your scan--the interior poking out through the bottom is the opposite of what you expect to see, the vast majority of books have the cover overflashing past the interior on the bottom, which is the case on that 8.0 you posted an image of--there's so much cover overflash on that one that it's partially creased up under the book, which is very, very common. Dupcak almost always trims bottom edges, possibly because it's the last place collectors tend to notice. Your top edge looks suspect just because it's so straight, but I don't think it's possible for us to tell from the scan as untrimmed top edges can look like that.

I'm not convinced this book is trimmed from those photos. There is just as much overhang on the top of the book as there is page showing on the bottom. That said, the cover could easily be married which would could explain the overhang/trimmed look.

[fantastic_four]

I'm not convinced this book is trimmed from those photos. There is just as much overhang on the top of the book as there is page showing on the bottom. That said, the cover could easily be married which would could explain the overhang/trimmed look.

 

Marriage on this book is likely--as previously mentioned some or all of these file copies had married covers from proofs, but proof covers usually have to be trimmed to fit an interior. Dupcak could have trimmed the proofs to actually include overhang, but I've never seen examples from this run of him doing that, it has always been covers which snugly fit the interiors.

[comicwiz]

Also, I don't believe Friesan nor Litch would call a book restored merely because of the stamp. Aside from my more-than-a-decade's worth of experience looking at their work, in the case of trimming, they always tell you which edges are trimmed, and that fact alone rules out the possibility of them just blanket assuming there is restoration--they can't just assume Dupcak trimmed all three edges as he doesn't always do that, and I've seen multiple examples of them noting only one or two edges as trimmed on a Dupcak-restored book.

 

They wouldn't normally make that call, but there is no doubt in my mind the stamp would automatically route the book towards a resto check.

 

I'll say my piece, regardless of whether or not it prompts a parade of "locked thread" contestants

 

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Steve B.

 

It may have taken a decade, but things are clearer now with hindsight than they have ever been, and no disrespect to Steve, but reading that CBG article just had me shaking my head.

 

As a sideline observer to how CGC has evolved from its inception, their primary objective had to be about acting as a legitimate check point of trust in the online marketplace.

 

Maybe this was a necessary step.

 

But to counter this verification checkpoint, the web-based evidence seems to suggest that no matter how many warnings and watch outs, rotten apples or not, as long as collectors get their fix, they are willing to overlook the fact that they are being dragged knowingly or not, in that sellers corner every time a deal is made.

 

Over time, we've come to realize that some of those corners are getting darker and stranger with each passing year.

 

And make no mistake about it, CGC had its own reasons and motivations to see to it that their grading model did everything possible to cut off and alienate Dupcak and prevent the mail-order transgressions of Fantazia from repeating a runaway and unstoppable iteration in online marketplaces.

 

Enabling someone with a history of butchering books, marrying Eastern covers and/or reassembling them to mimic pristine examples was a triple risk this hobby could no longer shoulder.

 

But what transpired is the exact opposite. The hobby didn't get safer. It just tolerated and followed far more heinous activities to the tipping point of a forward-moving, planar strategy to keep the hobby ticking, and whatever didn't get pushed off the edge, was treated as a modernized and requisite change, even though the community might have been fundamentally opposed to it.

 

To some degree, the transgressions of Ewart and the way CGC has been changing the rules to accommodate activity it deems can't properly be regulated or detected has become an accepted way for businesses to adjust to the money-making enterprise the hobby has become.

 

Even talking about or questioning this ideology, or sharing opinions on this loose form of authentication and regulation is construed as being bad for business, and I can already hear the parade boots marching.

 

Tying this back to my reaction from reading that article, I have to think crying Big Bad Wolf either badly backfired or the use of fear as a motivation was not as effective as they had intended, because all it did was breed more wolves, and gave the weasels back-stage access to the hobby's henhouse.

[fantastic_four]

They wouldn't normally make that call, but there is no doubt in my mind the stamp would automatically route the book towards a resto check.

 

What do you mean? All books get resto-checked. I'm sure it would cause Friesan or Litch to nod their heads and look for the same type of restoration on these books they've already seen dozens of times before, but other than an internal reaction by the resto checker and a possible higher amount of scrutiny of the edges, not sure what else would change in their process.

 

 

Enabling someone with a history of butchering books, marrying Eastern covers and/or reassembling them to mimic pristine examples was a triple risk this hobby could no longer shoulder.

 

But what transpired is the exact opposite. The hobby didn't get safer. It just tolerated and followed far more heinous activities to the tipping point of a forward-moving, planar strategy to keep the hobby ticking, and whatever didn't get pushed off the edge, was treated as a modernized and requisite change, even though the community might have been fundamentally opposed to it.

 

CGC improved the hobby's grading by making it tighter, and it reduced the free proliferation of restoration by making it harder to get away with. What are the "more heinous activities" you're referring to?

[matter-migration]

They wouldn't normally make that call, but there is no doubt in my mind the stamp would automatically route the book towards a resto check.

 

What do you mean? All books get resto-checked. I'm sure it would cause Friesan or Litch to nod their heads and look for the same type of restoration on these books they've already seen dozens of times before, but other than an internal reaction by the resto checker and a possible higher amount of scrutiny of the edges, not sure what else would change in their process.

 

 

Enabling someone with a history of butchering books, marrying Eastern covers and/or reassembling them to mimic pristine examples was a triple risk this hobby could no longer shoulder.

 

But what transpired is the exact opposite. The hobby didn't get safer. It just tolerated and followed far more heinous activities to the tipping point of a forward-moving, planar strategy to keep the hobby ticking, and whatever didn't get pushed off the edge, was treated as a modernized and requisite change, even though the community might have been fundamentally opposed to it.

 

CGC improved the hobby's grading by making it tighter, and it reduced the free proliferation of restoration by making it harder to get away with. What are the "more heinous activities" you're referring to?

 

You're cute when you're playing coy

[fantastic_four]

You're cute when you're playing coy

 

I'm not coy, I'm just not as creative with facts as some are, and as is true with everyone, not in possession of every fact available to be had. So please, do elaborate.

[comicwiz]

They wouldn't normally make that call, but there is no doubt in my mind the stamp would automatically route the book towards a resto check.

 

What do you mean? All books get resto-checked. I'm sure it would cause Friesan or Litch to nod their heads and look for the same type of restoration on these books they've already seen dozens of times before, but other than an internal reaction by the resto checker and a possible higher amount of scrutiny of the edges, not sure what else would change in their process.

 

I don't think it's like an assembly line, where every book goes through a thorough resto check. I don't know for certain, but I've always regarded it more as a trained-eye looking over the book, and only going through a thorough resto checkpoint if they found anything off. The stamp would be an automatic red flag, just as it would if someone included a printout of the completed auction listing along with their submission form, and the seller they bought from was robo or hammer.

 

Enabling someone with a history of butchering books, marrying Eastern covers and/or reassembling them to mimic pristine examples was a triple risk this hobby could no longer shoulder.

 

But what transpired is the exact opposite. The hobby didn't get safer. It just tolerated and followed far more heinous activities to the tipping point of a forward-moving, planar strategy to keep the hobby ticking, and whatever didn't get pushed off the edge, was treated as a modernized and requisite change, even though the community might have been fundamentally opposed to it.

 

CGC improved the hobby's grading by making it tighter, and it reduced the free proliferation of restoration by making it harder to get away with. What are the "more heinous activities" you're referring to?

 

When I saw the thread started by mycomicshop, the post describing eBay's eligibility terms of an accepted grading company stood out - this in particular:

 

Stated buyback guaranty in writing for coins later determined to be counterfeit, damaged, over- or mis-graded, or misattributed

 

I have to admit that when I read that thread, I thought the terms were unrealistic and could never be achieved in comics grading. But then it struck me that part of this belief was based on being conditioned to believe such terms are unrealistic, when it actual fact, they might be the way things ought to be.

 

More to the point, if I bought a book as a 9.0, only to later discover that the book was previously in a 4.0 holder, and my understanding of the grade was one based on the belief that it achieved that grade because it was stored away and rarely handled, when in fact, it was worked on in an attempt to return it to its glorious pre-damaged state, would the buyback term eBay's requesting even be honoured if CGC doesn't deem that type of work as restoration?

 

The fact that this type of activity is happening more regularly, and is more widespread than finding a married Eastern cover or file copy, without any requirement to report when a book has been worked on to improve its grade, and the extent of the work performed, is a raw deal.

 

The fact that we can't even meet eBay's eligibility when it comes to grading comics is a reflection of everything that is wrong about our understanding of the necessary checks required for a book to have been properly authenticated.

[comicwiz]

You're cute when you're playing coy

 

I'm not coy, I'm just not as creative with facts as some are, and as is true with everyone, not in possession of every fact available to be had. So please, do elaborate.

 

I'll remember to include a full list of references, footnotes, telephone numbers and addresses of people named, fuel and bandwidth consumption, it that helps with the cred check you're asking from me. (thumbs u

[fantastic_four]

I don't think it's like an assembly line, where every book goes through a thorough resto check. I don't know for certain, but I've always regarded it more as a trained-eye looking over the book, and only going through a thorough resto checkpoint if they found anything off.

 

The back of the label guarantees that one pre-grader and two regular graders have looked at it, and that a restoration check has been performed. An article was written documenting their process and I recall a separate restoration checker being involved on every book. It's worth researching available information on this again, I haven't thought about it in many years.

 

 

More to the point, if I bought a book as a 9.0, only to later discover that the book was previously in a 4.0 holder, and my understanding of the grade was one based on the belief that it achieved that grade because it was stored away and rarely handled, when in fact, it was worked on in an attempt to return it to its glorious pre-damaged state, would the buyback eBay's requesting be honoured if CGC doesn't deem that type of work as restoration?

 

The fact that this type of activity is happening more regularly, and is more widespread than finding a married Eastern cover or file copy, without any requirement to report when a book has been worked on to improve its grade, and the extent of the work performed, is a raw deal.

 

The fact that we can't even meet eBay's eligibility when it comes to grading comics is a reflection of everything that is wrong about our understanding of the necessary checks required for a book to have been properly authenticated.

 

Are you talking about pressing here? I didn't read the thread you're referring to, but NOBODY can detect pressing, anywhere in the world, so I don't know what E-Bay could possibly expect anyone in the comics world to do about pressing upgrades.

[fantastic_four]

You're cute when you're playing coy

 

I'm not coy, I'm just not as creative with facts as some are, and as is true with everyone, not in possession of every fact available to be had. So please, do elaborate.

 

I'll remember to include a full list of references, footnotes, telephone numbers and addresses of people named, fuel and bandwidth consumption, it that helps with the cred check you're asking from me. (thumbs u

 

I don't know what you mean...I was responding to user "matter", not you, and I don't recall asking you for a credibility check. I wasn't thinking of you when I said "I'm just not as creative with facts as some are" if that's what you were thinking--I was actually thinking this 3-week-old "matter" user is a new shill for one of half a dozen possible old users I have in mind, but I'm not sure at all, I suppose we'll see.

[comicwiz]

More to the point, if I bought a book as a 9.0, only to later discover that the book was previously in a 4.0 holder, and my understanding of the grade was one based on the belief that it achieved that grade because it was stored away and rarely handled, when in fact, it was worked on in an attempt to return it to its glorious pre-damaged state, would the buyback eBay's requesting be honoured if CGC doesn't deem that type of work as restoration?

 

The fact that this type of activity is happening more regularly, and is more widespread than finding a married Eastern cover or file copy, without any requirement to report when a book has been worked on to improve its grade, and the extent of the work performed, is a raw deal.

 

The fact that we can't even meet eBay's eligibility when it comes to grading comics is a reflection of everything that is wrong about our understanding of the necessary checks required for a book to have been properly authenticated.

 

Are you talking about pressing here? I didn't read the thread you're referring to, but NOBODY can detect pressing, anywhere in the world, so I don't know what E-Bay could possibly expect anyone in the comics world to do about pressing upgrades.

 

Right. Kind of like how you can't detect when a book has been taken apart, and reassembled or had its staples replaced. These kinds of checks and regulations would just bog-down turn around times, and handing out more green or purple labels would be bad for business.

 

eBay might have to ask CGC to help them draft the terms before it's mandated for comic sellers.

[comicwiz]

You're cute when you're playing coy

 

I'm not coy, I'm just not as creative with facts as some are, and as is true with everyone, not in possession of every fact available to be had. So please, do elaborate.

 

I'll remember to include a full list of references, footnotes, telephone numbers and addresses of people named, fuel and bandwidth consumption, it that helps with the cred check you're asking from me. (thumbs u

 

I don't know what you mean...I was responding to user "matter", not you, and I don't recall asking you for a credibility check. I wasn't thinking of you when I said "I'm just not as creative with facts as some are" if that's what you were thinking--I was actually thinking this 3-week-old "matter" user is a new shill for one of half a dozen possible old users I have in mind, but I'm not sure at all, I suppose we'll see.

 

I was uncertain about the "creative facts" bit which is why I used the (thumbs u - my apologies.

[fantastic_four]

Right. Kind of like how you can't detect when a book has been taken apart, and reassembled or had its staples replaced. These kinds of checks and regulations would just bog-down turn around times, and handing out more green or purple labels would be bad for business.

 

In the case of staple replacement, they do try to note it...used to be with a green label, but I haven't seen what they're doing lately. With all of those processes you list here though, sometimes you can detect it, and sometimes you can't...I suspect that if they were all reliably detectable and improved the appearance of a book, CGC would have chosen to note it. However, with the reality of restoration detection being what it is and the additional reality that customers wouldn't take kindly to knowing CGC is fallible even though everyone else on this planet is in the same boat they are, they decided to deem all of the non-additive and non-subtractive procedures as not being restoration. I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same thing in their shoes--it's a tough call. What would you have done?

[comicwiz]

Right. Kind of like how you can't detect when a book has been taken apart, and reassembled or had its staples replaced. These kinds of checks and regulations would just bog-down turn around times, and handing out more green or purple labels would be bad for business.

 

In the case of staple replacement, they do try to note it...used to be with a green label, but I haven't seen what they're doing lately. With all of those processes you list here though, sometimes you can detect it, and sometimes you can't...I suspect that if they were all reliably detectable and improved the appearance of a book, CGC would have chosen to note it. However, with the reality of restoration detection being what it is and the additional reality that customers wouldn't take kindly to knowing CGC is fallible even though everyone else on this planet is in the same boat they are, they decided to deem all of the non-additive and non-subtractive procedures as not being restoration. I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same thing in their shoes. What would you have done?

 

I'm all about solutions. Over the years I've been a member, I've spent considerable time putting forward thoughts, suggestions and ideas.

 

In this particular instance, I really have to say they made their bed, they can continue to lie in it.

[Rip]

Small tape on interior covers/centerfolds seems to be a popular trend these days.

 

Now back to watching FF's sig

[fantastic_four]

Now back to watching FF's sig

 

I can't take my eyes off of my high-grade Fantastic Fours, either.

[jimjum12]

....the ASM 42 could also be just a very high grade copy that only the stamp was added to. There was no shortage of high grade post 65 Marvels back when the Eastern File copies were offered. Certainly no one would have needed to manufacture any. Definitely easier to just stamp one than to go to the trouble of putting one together. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[AtlasFan]

May, 1991 CBG alleged "file copy" ad by Fantazia, the OP may be referring to:

 

 

 

I never understood what all the fuss was about Strange Adventures #180 - Animal Man....who cares or ever cared? You cant give that cr@p away today...

[seanfingh]

 

I would pay $350 for NM/M Strange Adventures 180.