HOS #92 CGC 9.6 $8,250.00

[Solar]

I have. They took an existing character and changed his origin to be more appealing to a wider audience. Retcon? Retcon.

[joe_collector]

I have. They took an existing character and changed his origin to be more appealing to a wider audience. Retcon? Retcon.

 

 

Man, are you a comedian or just on a roll today?

 

If you want to know what a retcon *really* is, look it up on the Internet, as I have no more time to waste with .

 

According to you, Marvel characters like Hulk, Thing, Thor, Spider-man and many others are all retcons, as they were "prototyped" earlier and then totally revamped into new characters for their own book's release?

 

Call Stan Lee now, Solar is calling him a retcon artist!!!

[Solar]

Provide your definition then. HOS92 was a tryout, but it was a tryout featuring the character. Same name and same appearance. The origin was modernized for the actual book. The old tryout characters were OBVIOUSLY not even close to the same in most cases.

 

Oh and there's really no reason to be such an antagonistic .

[joe_collector]

I'll give you a hint, in order to have retroactive continuity, you need a good stretch of continuity to begin with.

 

Def: the property of a continuous and connected period of time

 

It's totally impossible to retcon a character after a single try-out issue.

[Solar]

See edit to above post. Also there is continuity established in a story, wether it is one issue or many. How many issues does it take to have continuity? 5, 10, 20? Specify. I'd argue that there is continuity between panels and pages of one book. The character is established and then modified.

 

And again, what reason for the namecalling?

[awe4one]

Personally, I think that Phantom Stranger #14 should be the first DC Swamp Thing prototype....

 

 

Jim

[Solar]

Now THAT's a prototype...

[joe_collector]

Bullseye is very similar to the Swamp Thing prototype in HOS 92, as he debuted as a villain in Nick Fury, and then was later revamped in Daredevil.

 

The key is, that they were never the same person, and since Nick's Bullseye only appeared in a single issue, while the DD character became popular, and naturally DD 131 is the key issue.

 

It's pretty obvious Overstreet made a mistake with HOS 92 early on, and due to values spiking and potential collector/dealer portfolio impact, Bob just can't go back and make it right. Too much history, too many $$$ and not enough payoff to make it wothwhile.

 

To the detractors, I would like to see another example of a ultra-valuable key issue where the character in question made on a single appearance, and subsequently another character took over the name and went on to an illustrious comic book run.

 

On the other hand, I could list off tons of examples of just the opposite.

[drbanner]

Personally, I think that Phantom Stranger #14 should be the first DC Swamp Thing prototype....

 

 

Jim

 

Another Adams classic, which is more like a Man-Thing prototype!!

[joe_collector]

which is more like a Man-Thing prototype!!

 

I was thinking the same thing.

[joe_collector]

See edit to above post. Also there is continuity established in a story, wether it is one issue or many. How many issues does it take to have continuity? 5, 10, 20? Specify. I'd argue that there is continuity between panels and pages of one book. The character is established and then modified.

 

Then explain to me how Swamp Thing #1 is a retcon of HOS 92?

[PovertyRow]

And again, what reason for the namecalling?

 

The main reason is that JC simply cannot tolerate any views other than his own, is incredibly narrow-minded and tends to resort to name-calling as an alternative to valid debate. Also, if you disagree with JC on most anything he will, after violently oppose you and name-calling, try to spiral you down through an ever-narrowing logic pool so that the final point bears little resemblance to the original argument.

 

I really liked your assessment of ST. It makes a lot of sense to me.

[joe_collector]

The main reason is that JC simply cannot tolerate any views other than his own, is incredibly narrow-minded and tends to resort to name-calling as an alternative to valid debate.

 

Hey, even OS agrees with me in principle.

 

The problem is, that there are so many people who own this issue, and may want to sell it in the future, that reality and logic seldom enter into any debate. And sure, this preoccupation with $$$ does tend to irritate me.

[awe4one]

Bullseye is very similar to the Swamp Thing prototype in HOS 92, as he debuted as a villain in Nick Fury, and then was later revamped in Daredevil.

 

I happen to agree with you in regards to HOS #92. It's clearly a prototype. Different timeframe and person altogether. ST #1 clearly lays out the Holland/ST as it's own character and backstory. No ties whatsoever with HOS #92 were suggested.

 

Moore's retcon doesn't negate that fact.

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

I happen to agree with you in regards to HOS #92. It's clearly a prototype. Different timeframe and person altogether. ST #1 clearly lays out the Holland/ST as it's own character and backstory. No ties whatsoever with HOS #92 were suggested.

 

Yep, and I have an Overstreet where an irate reader letter is answered in much the same way, but I guess the $$$ dealers didn't allow this to be corrected.

 

And how ST #1 can be considered a retcon of HOS 92 is so bizarre it defies explanation.

 

Threads like this really make me wonder how many participants have read HOS 92 and ST 1, or if they're just perusing Overstreet and looking at the covers through the shiny slab.

[drbanner]

There is no Alec Holland Swamp Thing, just a Swamp Thing that thought it was Alec Holland. The Swamp Thing in hos92 thought it was some other guy (who's name I cant remember off the top of my head). Since there is only one ST at a time and a ST can recreate itself from the earth (therefore placing no real value on the physical incarnation of the ST), wouldnt it be logical to assume that it's really the same being recreated by the earth time and again? Kinda like reincarnation.

 

What are you gibbering about?

 

Swamp Thing as featured in...

 

You're an excitable little fellow arent you?

 

 

Haven't you learned by now that if you disagree with Joe, then you simply must be out of touch with the real world?

 

Or the real world according to Joe anyway...

[joe_collector]

Haven't you learned by now that if you disagree with Joe, then you simply must be out of touch with the real world?

 

Instead of mouthing off, stand up and be counted.

 

HOS 92: Prototype or Swamp Thing?

[Solar]

That's the kind of reply I was looking for. You must have found your Prozac!

 

I see what you're saying and it makes sense if you accept that the original ST and the current ST are clearly 2 different characters. My view though is that HOS92 ST is the same character that still exists in DC continuity. Even if it wasnt the same character when Len and Bernie's ST series was in publication, it is now, and ST has had enough of a run during and after Moore, that this book deserves its current status as a bronze mega key. Even if, I concede that this is a different ST, which I dont, this is the beginning of Swamp Thing's story.

 

In current continuity, it seems to me that ST is similar to Sandman. The ST in HOS92 is dead, like Morpheus, and a new aspect of ST has replaced him, like Daniel. If, God forbid, Sandman was ever relaunched with Daniel as the lead, his first appearance (Sandman 21 or 22) would become a minor key like the first Moore on Saga, but the book that would benefit the most is the one that started it all, Sandman 1..

 

Edit: Oops forgot to quote on this. I was referring to the Bullseye post.

[drbanner]

Haven't you learned by now that if you disagree with Joe, then you simply must be out of touch with the real world?

 

Instead of mouthing off, stand up and be counted.

 

HOS 92: Prototype or Swamp Thing?

 

You're not trying to violently oppose me and spiral me down through an ever-narrowing logic pool so that the final point bears little resemblance to the original argument, are you?

[joe_collector]

Even if it wasnt the same character when Len and Bernie's ST series was in publication, it is now

 

Now I don't read current DC books, but did they HOS 92 Swamp Thing come back and replace the one from Swamp Thing #1?