HOS #92 CGC 9.6 $8,250.00

[joe_collector]

Just answer the question Banner.

[drbanner]

Just answer the question Banner.

 

Never mind Joe, you just don't ever get it...

[joe_collector]

Just answer the question Banner.

 

Never mind Joe, you just don't ever get it...

 

Just answer the question Banner, and actually contribute to a thread, rather than just stalking me.

[deathlok]

Just answer the question Banner.

 

Never mind Joe, you just don't ever get it...

 

Just answer the question Banner, and actually contribute to a thread, rather than just stalking me.

[Solar]

Even if it wasnt the same character when Len and Bernie's ST series was in publication, it is now

 

Now I don't read current DC books, but did they HOS 92 Swamp Thing come back and replace the one from Swamp Thing #1?

 

That wasnt exactly the clearest line I've written. I'm just going back to the theory from my original post.

There is no Alec Holland Swamp Thing, just a Swamp Thing that thought it was Alec Holland. The Swamp Thing in hos92 thought it was some other guy (who's name I cant remember off the top of my head). Since there is only one ST at a time and a ST can recreate itself from the earth (therefore placing no real value on the physical incarnation of the ST), wouldnt it be logical to assume that it's really the same being recreated by the earth time and again? Kinda like reincarnation.

[joe_collector]

Now I don't read current DC books, but did they HOS 92 Swamp Thing come back and replace the one from Swamp Thing #1?

 

That wasnt exactly the clearest line I've written. I'm just going back to the theory from my original post.

 

 

Okay, even if we are going to take a Moore retcon as the basis for an early 70's key character, tell me again which character that Swamp Thing embodies in plant form? Which human being's skeleton is now sitting at the bottom of the swamp, with only the essense of the soul remaining?

 

Oh yeah, and which issue did he first appear in?

 

You see, no matter which way you look at it, the Swamp Thing in Swamp Thing #1 is Alec Holland, and the ST in Moore's retcon is simply a plant that has absorbed Alec Holland's memories, personality and spirit.

 

Moore's work was never meant to delete Alec Holland from continuity, only to give us a twist ending retcon, and hit Swampy with the realization that he could never "cure himself" and be human again.

[Solar]

Well, the only skeleton still in a swamp right now is the guy from HOS92. ST buried Alec Holland's skeleton in one of the Moore saga issues. The guy in HOS does exist in current continuity though. HOS92 is actually reprinted in another Saga issue as Abby finds out that the "Alec" ST is not the first incarnation of ST. Sure Moore's retcon didnt eliminate Alec Holland or the Other Guy, he just showed us that ST is an earth elemental that is spawned when the earth is in need of a champion. Other Guy ST is one incarnation of that being, Alec ST is another. My arguement boils down to this: both ST's are different aspects/incarnations/personifications/whatever of the same damn being, Swamp Thing and that big ugly green being first appeared in HOS92.

[joe_collector]

Well, the only skeleton still in a swamp right now is the guy from HOS92. ST buried Alec Holland's skeleton in one of the Moore saga issues

 

 

I was referring to Moore's initial retcon, not subsequent BS retcons and revamps that simply sucked bigtime IMHO.

 

Did you read the book, where the surprise reveal shows Alec Holland's skeleton, plays up the part about the plants absorbing his personality/memories/spirit/etc.?

[joe_collector]

My arguement boils down to this: both ST's are different aspects/incarnations/personifications/whatever of the same damn being, Swamp Thing.

 

Then you really have no argument, as that could be retconned away tomorrow and then you'd have to picket OS asking them to change HOS to a prototype. Nothing is less stable than "what a writer says today".

 

I just stick with reality and leave the ever-changing retcon fiction to the hacks.

[Solar]

Well, the only skeleton still in a swamp right now is the guy from HOS92. ST buried Alec Holland's skeleton in one of the Moore saga issues

 

 

I was referring to Moore's initial retcon, not subsequent BS retcons and revamps that simply sucked bigtime IMHO.

 

Did you read the book, where the surprise reveal shows Alec Holland's skeleton, plays up the part about the plants absorbing his personality/memories/spirit/etc.?

 

The Burial wasn't a later retcon. It was something like Moore's 7th issue on Saga I believe. I've only read these in TPB form so I cant give you issue numbers, but the flashback with the plants absorbing Holland was in the first or second chapter of the first Moore TPB and the Burial is the first chapter of the second TPB.

 

There's not really anything that changes between the two stories. In the Burial, ST is haunted by Alec Holland's soul, which is still wandering the swamp. He buries it and gives Alec peace.

 

Alec's soul wasn't somehow ingested by the plants, they just absorbed his personality through some BS pseudoscience. Remember the part of the initial retcon issue you decribe above where the evil plant guy (Fluero Man?) figures out ST's origin by comparing him to some sort of fluke worm that scientists have shown to absorb memories when it eats another worm?

[Solar]

I just stick with reality and leave the ever-changing retcon fiction to the hacks.

 

Alan Moore is a hack.

[Solar]

I just stick with reality and leave the ever-changing retcon fiction to the hacks.

 

This is actually one of the funniest lines I've ever read. We're talking about a giant, green, walking, talking, intelligent plant creature that stars in a comic book called Swamp Thing and you want to stick to reality. Nice.

[joe_collector]

The Burial wasn't a later retcon. It was something like Moore's 7th issue on Saga I believe.

 

 

Nevermind. It's obvious you're having trouble with the "Swamp Thing is a plant retcon" and exactly where it occured in Moore's Swamp Thing.

 

It's like me saying, "remember when the Green Goblin bought in ASM 122?" and having you reply "Hey, he's not dead!"

 

"I know, but do you remember the issue?"

 

"Remember what loser, he's alive - check it out!!"

 

Grrrrrrr....

[joe_collector]

This is actually one of the funniest lines I've ever read. We're talking about a giant, green, walking, talking, intelligent plant creature that stars in a comic book called Swamp Thing and you want to stick to reality. Nice.

 

You know, you are sounding a lot like a drooling fanboy, where if someone disagrees with the latest retcon, you get all fired up.

 

Reality: Publishing schedule, character name chosen by writer, number of issues starring said character, number of issues in run, duration of series.

 

Check it out!!!

[PovertyRow]

I just stick with reality and leave the ever-changing retcon fiction to the hacks.

 

This is actually one of the funniest lines I've ever read. We're talking about a giant, green, walking, talking, intelligent plant creature that stars in a comic book called Swamp Thing and you want to stick to reality. Nice.

 

At The Outer Limits comc shop Massachusetts, Steve Higgins (the owner) and some of us customers were discussing the then-upcoming LOIS AND CLARK tv show. At the same time was another new show - SEA-something - the show with Stacy Haiduck and "starring" a talking dolphin and a submarine. Anyway, Steve said that submarine show looked silly because the talking dolphni was so far-fetched, and that he was interested in LOIS AND CLARK. So I said "OK, you have trouble with a talking dolphin but see nothing far-fetched about an alien baby shot from a spacehip, landing on earth, that can fly, has super-strength, invulnerability and x-ray vision?" We all broke up, but it IS an interesting perceptive thing.

[Solar]

! That's hilarious. I cant believe I've been arguing about this for 2 hours now. When you really take a step back and look at these discussions, they're pretty damn funny. If I showed this thread to my girlfriend, she'd probably have me committed and dump me (not necessarily in that order).

[awe4one]

The Alec Holland Swamp Thing mythos (sans retcon) encompassed 11 years and two series of 45 issues. That storyline was the definitive origin until Moore decided to change it. Based on that, HOS #92 has to be regarded as a prototype that was retconned into basic continuity.

 

Jim

[Solar]

This is actually one of the funniest lines I've ever read. We're talking about a giant, green, walking, talking, intelligent plant creature that stars in a comic book called Swamp Thing and you want to stick to reality. Nice.

 

You know, you are sounding a lot like a drooling fanboy, where if someone disagrees with the latest retcon, you get all fired up.

 

Reality: Publishing schedule, character name chosen by writer, number of issues starring said character, number of issues in run, duration of series.

 

Check it out!!!

 

My "latest retcon" was circa 1985. This has been the character's origin ever since. I think it's pretty much safe to say that Swamp Thing isnt going to be Alec Holland again any time soon.

[Solar]

The Alec Holland Swamp Thing mythos (sans retcon) encompassed 11 years and two series of 45 issues. That storyline was the definitive origin until Moore decided to change it. Based on that, HOS #92 has to be regarded as a prototype that was retconned into basic continuity.

 

Jim

 

Sure. That origin was accepted for 11 years, but it's not accepted now. It all depends what you want to base your own personal criteria for a 1st appearance on.

 

The difference between this and other prototypes is that the prototype has become a valid character through the retcon. The Swamp Things began as 2 different characters but have since been merged. That's good enough for me, but perhaps not for others. To each his own.

[deathlok]

! That's hilarious. I cant believe I've been arguing about this for 2 hours now. When you really take a step back and look at these discussions, they're pretty damn funny. If I showed this thread to my girlfriend, she'd probably have me committed and dump me (not necessarily in that order).

 

Start a thread on who is stronger Hulk or Thor.