(CBLDF) To defend Alan Moore's NEONOMICON in South Carolina

[VintageComics]

I used to think when my kids were under the age of 8 or 10 that if they had heard about sex that I was going to forever scar them. I can't help it, my parents didn't talk to me about that stuff so I had to learn how to teach it without any previous experience in that field.

 

Then one of my kids at a very young age came home drawing dirty pics that they learned from a school friend.

 

Now I have 3 teenage kids ages 13, 15, 17 (boy, girl, girl) and an 11 year old daughter that is right there and you know, they all know about it and it isn't that big of a deal.

 

We talk about it often and keep it in context and I share with my 3 girls and my boy how important it is for them to make good decisions and what the consequences are of making bad decisions...sexually, morally, academically...the works.

 

Stuff happens. They're going to come across this stuff in the real world and I'm trying to prepare them for it now. I definitely don't want to shield them from everything and shock them when they are thrown into the real world. That happened to me to a degree and it was difficult to navigate as a teen. I really could have used my dad's help at the time but didn't get it.

 

It's unfortunate that sometimes they learn without parent's permission but hey, that is life. It's not a perfectly orchestrated concert. I'd rather they learn that it's OK to talk to me about stuff than just avoid it all together until they're stuck in a situation that they can't handle.

 

As a parent, it's my responsibility to equip them for life as best as I can and that includes teaching them to recover from a fumble if they are exposed to something inadvertently that I would have wanted to prevent.

 

It sounds like it was just lazy parenting and it happens. It's really not the end of the world. My kids (at least the younger ones) choose not to listen to explicit lyrics and read explicit books simply because they understand that there will come a time when they will make those choices for themselves.

 

My boy is a typical boy and likes to push the boundaries with his humour. He liked to joke about stuff that is considered off colour but so what? Which young boy didn't?

 

I find North American culture sometimes to be extremely protective of it's youth (this is probably a recent cultural trend as marriage at a very young age was once considered normal) and maybe it's time to re-examine our relationships with kids.

 

I think that is the biggest danger. They are going to get exposed to everything. It's all a click away on the internet. The entire world moving at the speed of light at their finger tips. With parents working full time and kids being raised by technology sometimes the most important thing is missing, and that is not shielding them from the world, it's teaching them how to manage themselves with what they are exposed to.

 

Having said that, this is a touchy subject and I would think that if the book had a mature label on it that both the mother and daughter should have caught it. Ultimately, it's mom and dad's job.

 

Personal responsibility is what is really going to build or break a nation ultimately as a nation is only as strong as the make up of it's individuals.

 

That's my hopefully not too pontificating speaking from experience.

[Theagenes]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound troll-y. Just trying to say that exploring the dark side of human consciousness is pretty integral to, you know, being human. Moore's not doing anything new, or Ennis/Lapham with crossed. You can track this trajectory back to Greek tragedy.

 

Can't disagree with any of that. However, I think (and this is merely personal opinion here) that certain lines can be crossed (no pun itended) and I do question why people feel the need to explore such themes and cross such lines. I also don't find it entertaining in the least.

 

 

I am not one who's easily offended at all, but found little redeeming about Crossed. I thought it was puerile garbage, honestly. Just an attempt to push the envelope for the sake of pushing the envelope with little substance behind it. The very definition of gratuitous. Sometimes, gratuitousness for the sake of gratuitousness can still be entertaining and important in breaking down barriers, but I didn't really feel that with Crossed---others may disagree.

 

I would not put Neonomicon in the same category as Crossed at all.

[drakesfuture]

 

Geez. I swear, some of you only read part of a post then reply.

 

I didn't say that Neonomicon is porn. I said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with Neonomicon. I also said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with porn.

 

My point is that censorship is bad....but common sensical warnings and cautions should be taken so the "wrong" audience (young kids) arent exposed to them.

 

 

Also....implying that the Girl with the Dragon Tatoo and Neonomicon are the same is disingenuous and you know it.

 

Sorry, I don't see how it's disingenuous at all. The tone of your post leaves me thinking that you don't really want to have a discussion. You just want to argue and be the loudest voice.

 

 

ok.

[drakesfuture]

People keep misinterpreting me. I don't know why.

 

 

To be clear.

 

1) Neonomicon is "out there". That is an easily agreed upon statement. Maybe the term "out there" is disagreeable, so I'll use outside the norms of general entertainment.

 

2) There is nothing wrong whatsoever with Neonomicon. It is just as legitimate a form of entertainment as the friggin' Muppets or Batman or whatever.

 

3) Neonomicon should be allowed to be carried in public libraries.

 

4) When in a public library, common sensical precautions should be taken so that people of an age too young to understand it aren't exposed to it.

 

 

Why are people making me out to be some Tipper Gore type censor who isn't open to discussion?

I think that the four things I have asserted are easily agreed upon.

 

I won't post again on this subject. I've already said my piece anyways and some of the same people who seem to rail against censorship of neonomicon seem to want to censor me.

[mikenyc]

Because your original post was logical and not argumentative and that does not sit well.

[TheWatcher]

4) When in a public library, common sensical precautions should be taken so that people of an age too young to understand it aren't exposed to it

 

Above and beyond the safety measures already in place by the library, what would you consider "common sensical precautions"?

[Heresy]

People keep misinterpreting me. I don't know why.

 

 

To be clear.

 

1) Neonomicon is "out there". That is an easily agreed upon statement. Maybe the term "out there" is disagreeable, so I'll use outside the norms of general entertainment.

 

2) There is nothing wrong whatsoever with Neonomicon. It is just as legitimate a form of entertainment as the friggin' Muppets or Batman or whatever.

 

3) Neonomicon should be allowed to be carried in public libraries.

 

4) When in a public library, common sensical precautions should be taken so that people of an age too young to understand it aren't exposed to it.

 

 

Why are people making me out to be some Tipper Gore type censor who isn't open to discussion?

I think that the four things I have asserted are easily agreed upon.

 

I won't post again on this subject. I've already said my piece anyways and some of the same people who seem to rail against censorship of neonomicon seem to want to censor me.

 

If that was what your first post said then there wouldn't be a discussion about it. Instead you said "In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find something like it in most libraries." which is blatantly untrue, there are much more graphic books widely available in public libraries and "removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means" which is the opposite of what you say in this post.

[Theagenes]

People keep misinterpreting me. I don't know why.

 

 

To be clear.

 

1) Neonomicon is "out there". That is an easily agreed upon statement. Maybe the term "out there" is disagreeable, so I'll use outside the norms of general entertainment.

 

I would very much disagree that Neonomicon is outside the norms of general entertainment in terms of content. It is comparable to many of the adult-themed shows like Game of Thrones that are on pay cable and have a huge mainstream viewership.

 

2) There is nothing wrong whatsoever with Neonomicon. It is just as legitimate a form of entertainment as the friggin' Muppets or Batman or whatever.

 

Agreed.

 

3) Neonomicon should be allowed to be carried in public libraries.

 

Agreed.

 

4) When in a public library, common sensical precautions should be taken so that people of an age too young to understand it aren't exposed to it.

 

Agreed. In my opinion, this was done. The book was not in the children's section or the YA section. In a public library anything that is not in those two sections may have content that is not age-appropriate for younger readers. This is an assumption that parents should make and if they let their kids check out books from the general stacks, they should use more due diligence.

 

Why are people making me out to be some Tipper Gore type censor who isn't open to discussion?

I think that the four things I have asserted are easily agreed upon.

 

I won't post again on this subject. I've already said my piece anyways and some of the same people who seem to rail against censorship of neonomicon seem to want to censor me.

 

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are trying to censor you. I think the main disagreement with your arguments was your characterization of the work as "out there." I don't think that is something that is easily agreed upon as it depends on a subjective interpretation of what the normative baseline is. In fairness, Neonomicon probably is "out there" by South Carolina standards, as would be many other works that most of us would consider "normal."

[seanfingh]

4) When in a public library, common sensical precautions should be taken so that people of an age too young to understand it aren't exposed to it

 

Above and beyond the safety measures already in place by the library, what would you consider "common sensical precautions"?

 

One thing that is out there, that I didn't realize, is that many libraries (I haven't been in one except a law library in 20 years) don't have an "adult" or "mature" section, where you need to be 18 or whatever to get stuff.

 

They have a "kids" section with picture books and whatnot, and then the "Adult" section is everything else - Diary of Anne Frank, Watership Down, Tropic of Cancer, Neonomicon etc. So the mom allowing the child to get stuff from the "Adult" section may have been the "Everything that doesn't have a 20 page story with big pictures" section.

 

That is a distinction with a difference to me.

[seanfingh]

 

I would very much disagree that Neonomicon is outside the norms of general entertainment in terms of content. It is comparable to many of the adult-themed shows like Game of Thrones that are on pay cable and have a huge mainstream viewership.

 

 

[MisterX]

People keep misinterpreting me. I don't know why.

 

4) When in a public library, common sensical precautions should be taken so that people of an age too young to understand it aren't exposed to it.

 

The mom had to sign a piece of paper giving her daughter permission to check out the book because it came from the Adults Only section.

 

What else do you want, exactly?

 

I'm a parent, and if I were at the library with my kids and one of them wanted to check out a book that the librarian told me I had to sign permission for because it came from the Adults Only section, I would look inside to make sure what the heck was in there.

 

The library did their job. The parent did not.

[Theagenes]

 

I would very much disagree that Neonomicon is outside the norms of general entertainment in terms of content. It is comparable to many of the adult-themed shows like Game of Thrones that are on pay cable and have a huge mainstream viewership.

 

 

 

Seriously. Game of Thrones has violence, plenty of sex and full frontal nudity, rape, incest, baby dragons suckling from a human girl's breasts. Is Neonomicon really that much more "out there"?

[Theagenes]

One thing that is out there, that I didn't realize, is that many libraries (I haven't been in one except a law library in 20 years) don't have an "adult" or "mature" section, where you need to be 18 or whatever to get stuff.

 

They have a "kids" section with picture books and whatnot, and then the "Adult" section is everything else - Diary of Anne Frank, Watership Down, Tropic of Cancer, Neonomicon etc. So the mom allowing the child to get stuff from the "Adult" section may have been the "Everything that doesn't have a 20 page story with big pictures" section.

 

That is a distinction with a difference to me.

 

Most libraries today also have a young adult section for series like Twilight, Hunger Games, etc.

[VintageComics]

4) When in a public library, common sensical precautions should be taken so that people of an age too young to understand it aren't exposed to it

 

Above and beyond the safety measures already in place by the library, what would you consider "common sensical precautions"?

 

One thing that is out there, that I didn't realize, is that many libraries (I haven't been in one except a law library in 20 years) don't have an "adult" or "mature" section, where you need to be 18 or whatever to get stuff.

 

They have a "kids" section with picture books and whatnot, and then the "Adult" section is everything else - Diary of Anne Frank, Watership Down, Tropic of Cancer, Neonomicon etc. So the mom allowing the child to get stuff from the "Adult" section may have been the "Everything that doesn't have a 20 page story with big pictures" section.

 

That is a distinction with a difference to me.

 

I was under the same impression as you - I didn't realize adult was a general term for anything above toddler age.

 

Sorry Sal.

 

[MisterX]

We don't know very much about the library in question.

 

It probably has a "Kids" section. And then there's the rest of the library, which is for grown-ups.

 

However, all libraries categorize their books. Literature, sports, non-fiction, etc. If I want to read "1984" I go to literature, if I want to read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," I go to history, etc.

 

If this library in SC categorized the Moore books as Adults Only, and it was in an Adults Only section, I say they still did their job.

 

But if it was shelved next to Ultimate Spider-Man, OK, maybe not a good call on the part of the librarian.

 

However, I'm just guessing, since I've never been there and most articles about the incident are not that specific.

 

It doeesn't change the fact that the parent was warned, gave permission, "messed-up," and is looking to deflect blame somewhere else for her mistake.

[seanfingh]

 

I would very much disagree that Neonomicon is outside the norms of general entertainment in terms of content. It is comparable to many of the adult-themed shows like Game of Thrones that are on pay cable and have a huge mainstream viewership.

 

 

 

Seriously. Game of Thrones has violence, plenty of sex and full frontal nudity, rape, incest, baby dragons suckling from a human girl's breasts. Is Neonomicon really that much more "out there"?

 

All with humans. Not Old One manphibians.

 

I admit that I have a problem with Neonomicon. I love Lovecraft and I love Alan Moore. I had hoped for something amazing and got something disturbingly prurient. That is not anyone's problem but my own, but I figured I'd explain my prejudices.

[VintageComics]

 

I would very much disagree that Neonomicon is outside the norms of general entertainment in terms of content. It is comparable to many of the adult-themed shows like Game of Thrones that are on pay cable and have a huge mainstream viewership.

 

 

 

Seriously. Game of Thrones has violence, plenty of sex and full frontal nudity, rape, incest, baby dragons suckling from a human girl's breasts. Is Neonomicon really that much more "out there"?

 

All with humans. Not Old One manphibians.

 

I admit that I have a problem with Neonomicon. I love Lovecraft and I love Alan Moore. I had hoped for something amazing and got something disturbingly prurient. That is not anyone's problem but my own, but I figured I'd explain my prejudices.

 

How do you figure Heatmiser procreates?

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

I would very much disagree that Neonomicon is outside the norms of general entertainment in terms of content. It is comparable to many of the adult-themed shows like Game of Thrones that are on pay cable and have a huge mainstream viewership.

 

 

 

Seriously. Game of Thrones has violence, plenty of sex and full frontal nudity, rape, incest, baby dragons suckling from a human girl's breasts. Is Neonomicon really that much more "out there"?

 

All with humans. Not Old One manphibians.

 

I admit that I have a problem with Neonomicon. I love Lovecraft and I love Alan Moore. I had hoped for something amazing and got something disturbingly prurient. That is not anyone's problem but my own, but I figured I'd explain my prejudices.

 

How do you figure Heatmiser procreates?

 

 

Hopefully intra-species with Heatmistress.

[Park]

Can anyone make a valid argument as to why that particular title should be in a publicly funded institution?

 

Why would the CBLDF choose to defend this book when it depicts our hobby in a horrible light. The gratuitous rape and murder and torture may not espouse the public's support.

 

 

Because Alan Moore is comicdom's canonical modern author, end of story.

 

Start scrubbing literature because it features too much sex and violence, and you lose the Western canon in minutes.

 

You lose the Bible, too. That's got more rape, murder, and torture than anything Moore has ever offered up.

 

 

If that piece of mess represents the work of our modern day anything, we are screwed.

 

I bought and read every issue and the term gratuitous seems an apt adjective as any. How many rapes are needed to move the plot along? How much violence is needed? It's like being a Robert Deniro fan and saying his work in "Rocky and Bullwinkle" was incredible.

 

Not every King book is "The Shining", not every Beatles song is "Hey Jude", sometimes a popular artist just doesn't succeed. It's when people defend an obvious miss that it starts to sound like a sycophant who can't see the forest for the trees.

 

It's also typical of our culture as Americans to believe that everything at anytime should be completely available, without restriction. Any limitation is immediately accused as being the catalyst to lead to an Orwellian like society. In reality, censorship occurs everyday on TV, in your child's schools, at your place of business, on these very boards.

 

There is a distinction between moderation and censorship. The decisions that are necessary to balance freedom of speech with social responsibility are necessary and you must look at the motivation behind the decision. When I'm with my friends at the bar and tell the joke about the priest, rabbi and a 10 pound salami, I don't see the problem. When I'm at my office, if I tell the same joke to my assistant it is frowned upon. Is management at my company censoring me?

 

Should everything that is printed be required to be placed in a library? The answer is no, there should be some standards used by the educated individuals who populate the library. If there were unlimited resources than maybe that's a different conversation, but if you must work within a budget I guarantee there are better ways to allocate those monies.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for telling us what is acceptable and what isn't based on your own biases and opinions...wait...

[Ryan.]

removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means.

 

Explain how what i described is censorship. Go 'head.