NEWSARAMA Has First 14 Pages Of Ultimate Nightmare Posted Online

[Ares]

http://www.newsarama.com/pages/Marvel/Ultimate_Night1/UltNtmr1.htm

[awe4one]

Didn't really grab me at all though the art was nice.....

 

Jim

[rob_react]

I thought it was an interesting set-up. Quite a few typical Ellis moments already.

[chrisco37]

I thought the "Ultimate Nightmare" was out already:

 

[AlexH]

I thought the "Ultimate Nightmare" was out already:

 

 

[delekkerste]

Didn't really grab me at all though the art was nice.....

 

Jim

 

I was on the fence about this one, being a fan of both Ultimate X-Men and the Ultimates, but not being a fan of all these $hite mini-series Marvel keeps pumping out. I'm glad I saw this preview so I can cross this book off my list. Ultimate Nightmare? Ultimate Rip-Off is more like it. Those 14 pages took about 90 seconds to read (about as fast as my computer could load them). I know there's a massive deflation in the amount of text per comic book (backed up by the excellent expose in the latest CBG), but this is just ridiculous. This issue probably has 1/12th the amount of words a typical SA book has.

 

Count me out.

[rob_react]

Didn't really grab me at all though the art was nice.....

 

Jim

 

I was on the fence about this one, being a fan of both Ultimate X-Men and the Ultimates, but not being a fan of all these $hite mini-series Marvel keeps pumping out. I'm glad I saw this preview so I can cross this book off my list. Ultimate Nightmare? Ultimate Rip-Off is more like it. Those 14 pages took about 90 seconds to read (about as fast as my computer could load them). I know there's a massive deflation in the amount of text per comic book (backed up by the excellent expose in the latest CBG), but this is just ridiculous. This issue probably has 1/12th the amount of words a typical SA book has.

 

Count me out.

 

It's set up.

[rob_react]

And does EVERYTHING have to be a $$ call with you? It's a rip-off because Ellis decides that the best way to tell this part of the story is visual? The word per dollar ratio isn't high enough for you?

[rob_react]

I'm reading War and Peace now. I've just decided that it's the greatest novel ever written. Not because of Tolstoy's skill as a writer but because the number of words per dollar spent is so high...

[delekkerste]

And does EVERYTHING have to be a $$ call with you? It's a rip-off because Ellis decides that the ebst way to tell this part of the story is visual? The word per dollar ratio isn't high enough for you?

 

Hey, don't bash me just because I don't share your messianic zeal for Ellis' writing. Like Jim, the "story" (what little there was of it) didn't move me at all - it was yet another $hite first issue where nothing happens - all of the "set-up" could have been condensed into 4 pages by a writer focused on producing quality comic books, not churning out page volume to package a 2-issue story into a watered-down 5-issue "ready for TPB" arc. Fair enough?

[rob_react]

No, it's just humorous to me the way you frame many things in terms of monetary value. The complaining you do about IDW, this word per issue thing, "why buy a frazetta when I can get five of artist X for the same money," etc. It's your thing. That's fine. It's just funny to me.

 

It's also hilarious that you spent x gazillion dollars for the art from a book with NO dialogue and are now complaining about word per issue ratios as if telling a story visually is some sort of kiss off death. The irony of that is rich and rewarding.

 

And for the record, I don't think this is the greatest thing Ellis has ever written. I don't expect him to do that for Marvel. But I do take issue with draggin $$ into a discussion about the quality of a work. I mean... do you really think it's a good idea for writers to sit around worrying that there might not be enough words on the page instead of worrying about how best to tell the story?

[AlexH]

[rob_react]

In short (since you're probably quoting the heck out of the last one to write a novella and you just edited your post out from underneath me and I don't want to do the same to you...) if you're going to argue against decompressed storytelling and you want me to take you seriously, please frame the argument in terms of artistic merit. I honestly couldn't tell you the cover price of half the books I buy.

[delekkerste]

No, it's just humorous to me the way you frame many things in terms of monetary value. The complaining you do about IDW, this word per issue thing, "why buy a frazetta when I can get five of artist X for the same money," etc. It's your thing. That's fine. It's just funny to me.

 

You make it sound like I'm the only one out there saying these things. Do you think CBG just did a big cover story article on the word deflation issue for no reason? Haven't you heard the numerous complaints on this Forum about new comics not delivering value at $2.99 for a 5-minute read? Do you read other message boards? What I said about IDW and Grimjack is nothing that other fans (you know, the kind that actually read new books and couldn't care less about slabs) haven't been saying. $3.99 per regular issue...$6.99 per one-shot? People in the industry like Heidi MacDonald are saying that comics need to provide a satisfying chunk of entertainment at a price that delivers value for consumers. While you're wrapped up in your worship of the Ellises, the Millars and the Bendises of the world, I think there's a serious question of what is artistic license and what is just putting filler in books to make them palatable to the TPB market.

 

And when did I ever question anyone's decision to buy a Frazetta? I can't remember if I ever made a price comparison about his work with other artists (maybe I said that I, personally, would rather have 5 Enric or Sanjulian paintings, but that is just my personal preference)...I am 100% sure, however, that I never said that anyone else should buy 5 paintings by someone else instead; furthermore, I have always maintained that Frazetta is in a league of his own.

 

 

It's also hilarious that you spent x gazillion dollars for the art from a book with NO dialogue and are now complaining about word per issue ratios as if telling a story visually is some sort of kiss off death. The irony of that is rich and rewarding.

 

No, because if artwork were valued on a per-word basis, panel pages would be worth far more than covers and splashes. Furthermore, the G.I. Joe #21 example is something you should really take a look at - that is a book that actually *did* convey an excellent story with a paucity of words. Go re-read it - the first page is a splash, but the rest have numerous panels to convey different parts of the story. Furthermore, the entire story is told in a single issue. Shocking! Yes, an entire, complete, extremely memorable story is conveyed in, gasp, ONE ISSUE! I'm not against solely the lack of text in today's books, but also that the $hite artwork and cr@p storytelling doesn't make up for it.

 

 

And for the record, I don't think this is the greatest thing Ellis has ever written. I don't expect him to do that for Marvel. But I do take issue with draggin $$ into a discussion about the quality of a work. I mean... do you really think it's a good idea for writers to sit around worrying that there might not be enough words on the page instead of worrying about how best to tell the story?

 

I think a lot of writing today has become extremely loose and sloppy because writers have to churn out 5 and 6-issue story arcs for the TPB market. And, if they get too lazy, not a problem - Marvel will just make 1602 an 8-issue mini-series instead of a 7-issue one or extend Ultimate Six by an extra issue. Same watered-down story spread out over one more issue to sell another 100,000 copies.

[delekkerste]

You know, Rob, for someone who rails against how intolerant J_C, for example, can be, you can be pretty, shall we say, opinionated yourself when someone touches one of your sacred cow issues like the quality of new books or the ethics of the collecting/dealer community (and by no means do you have overwhelming popular support behind these views). Some might even find this to be just a tad ironic itself.

[awe4one]

[i think a lot of writing today has become extremely loose and sloppy because writers have to churn out 5 and 6-issue story arcs for the TPB market.

 

I have to admit the TPB was one of the things that crossed my mind also when I read the preview. And essentially, that's the problem with it.....in 14 pages, I still don't know what the heck is going on....and I'm not curious to find out either.....

 

At least with the Avengers #500 preview, I got a good idea what was happening.....

 

Jim

[rob_react]

You know, Rob, for someone who rails against how intolerant J_C, for example, can be, you can be pretty, shall we say, opinionated yourself when someone touches one of your sacred cow issues like the quality of new books or the ethics of the collecting/dealer community (and by no means do you have overwhelming popular support behind these views). Some might even find this to be just a tad ironic itself.

 

That would be really ironic if I were anything like him at all. But count the number of people that can't stand me around here and then count the number of people who can't stand him and then re-run that analogy. I shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as him. In fact I can count on one hand the number of people I've ever "gotten into it" with around here, how that compares to him is beyond me.

 

There's also the fact that his posts are overwhelmingly negative and mine, on the topic of new books, are overwhelmingly positive...

 

I don't know, come to think of it, maybe I am intolerant of blanket statements from people who don't really have all that much experience with what's out there right now, in general I have very little patience for people who take stabs in the dark like that.

 

As for the issue of ethics in the deal/collector community, I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you're referring to the fact that I give people around here [!@#%^&^] for being paranoid about the bogeyman of the month and looking for something new to gossip about on occasion, then sure... I'm certainly something. I'm just not sure it's intolerant. I just have a hard time with the knee jerk reactions to the scandal of the month and how it slowly starts to creep across the whole board until it gets to be ridiculous ("every bronze book is pressed even though we all know there are stacks of them out there"). Do I think the hobby is clean? No, not at all. I've know some of these people for a long time, I'd have to be both blind and stupid to think that. I also don't think it's as bad as some around here make it out to be, basically for the same reason.

[lighthouse]

So a glowing image in space just happens to take on the exact appearance of the Ebola Virus???

 

Ebola Virus:

 

Page 10 of Ultimate Nightmare:

 

Ignoring for a moment the fact that it would only "look" like the Ebola virus from one specific point of view (just like our "constellations" don't exist from other star systems)... WTF would a space entity look like the Ebola virus in the first place?

 

On a side note... I actually liked the visual story-telling of the Tunguska impact... But the Ebola Virus in space?

[rob_react]

No, it's just humorous to me the way you frame many things in terms of monetary value. The complaining you do about IDW, this word per issue thing, "why buy a frazetta when I can get five of artist X for the same money," etc. It's your thing. That's fine. It's just funny to me.

 

You make it sound like I'm the only one out there saying these things.

 

 

No, but you ARE the only out there saying these things AND writing 100,000 words a year about how overvalued comics are as a collectible.

 

 

Do you think CBG just did a big cover story article on the word deflation issue for no reason? Haven't you heard the numerous complaints on this Forum about new comics not delivering value at $2.99 for a 5-minute read? Do you read other message boards? What I said about IDW and Grimjack is nothing that other fans (you know, the kind that actually read new books and couldn't care less about slabs) haven't been saying. $3.99 per regular issue...$6.99 per one-shot? People in the industry like Heidi MacDonald are saying that comics need to provide a satisfying chunk of entertainment at a price that delivers value for consumers.

 

I don't disagree with a lot of that. Although I have to admit simply presenting me with the "collective wisdom" is about as effective as any number of people here presenting you with the "collective wisdom" when it comes to the future prospects of the comic book market. Like you, I'm not going to be bowled over by a flood of popular opinion.

 

What I have a hard time with is blanket statements and the idea that $$ is the final arbiter of what's good and what's bad out there.

 

Do I wish IDW books were cheaper? Sure, I do. But do I also enjoy the heck out of them? Enough to justify the extra $1 or whatever it costs? Yes. I'm PERFECTLY happy to pay that extra bit to keep a NICHE publisher afloat and maybe, just maybe allow them to continue to employ the people they've been employing. In that I'm also hoping that if they keep at it and keep churning out great books, maybe economies of scale will kick in and they'll be able to bring the prices more in line with what the bigger companies charge.

 

 

While you're wrapped up in your worship of the Ellises, the Millars and the Bendises of the world, I think there's a serious question of what is artistic license and what is just putting filler in books to make them palatable to the TPB market.

 

Worship? I don't "worship" anyone in any field. I never had it in me to do that from the time I was a kid and since then I've met/ interviewed enough famous people to cement the fact that they're just like you or me.

 

Also, beyond Daredevil, The Pulse and UXM when he wrote it, I don't read a thing that Bendis does, so I wouldn't even say that I'm particularly fond of his work. The other two I do really enjoy most of the time.

 

And I'm not discounting the fact that people are using the banner of decompressed storytelling to pad out trades and do really crappy work. Just like the copycatting that went on post Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen, people are trying to capitalize on the success of this style- and it has been very critically and monetarily successful for several years now. That doesn't mean that done well, this is automatically a bad thing. That seems to be your thesis and I disagree with it.

 

And when did I ever question anyone's decision to buy a Frazetta? I can't remember if I ever made a price comparison about his work with other artists (maybe I said that I, personally, would rather have 5 Enric or Sanjulian paintings, but that is just my personal preference)...I am 100% sure, however, that I never said that anyone else should buy 5 paintings by someone else instead; furthermore, I have always maintained that Frazetta is in a league of his own.

 

I have no idea specifically and don't feel like searching for it, but I remember distinctly reading one of your posts on that very subject and thinking to myself... "but... who cares about those other people, we're talking about Frazetta!"

 

I also remember distinctly thinking to myself, "he's a Frazetta fan now?" when you talked about how excited you were with Icon or Legacy (whichever of the Fritz books it was you picked up.) Maybe my wires are crossed and I misread you, it's happened before.

 

 

It's also hilarious that you spent x gazillion dollars for the art from a book with NO dialogue and are now complaining about word per issue ratios as if telling a story visually is some sort of kiss off death. The irony of that is rich and rewarding.

 

No, because if artwork were valued on a per-word basis, panel pages would be worth far more than covers and splashes. Furthermore, the G.I. Joe #21 example is something you should really take a look at - that is a book that actually *did* convey an excellent story with a paucity of words. Go re-read it - the first page is a splash, but the rest have numerous panels to convey different parts of the story. Furthermore, the entire story is told in a single issue. Shocking! Yes, an entire, complete, extremely memorable story is conveyed in, gasp, ONE ISSUE! I'm not against solely the lack of text in today's books, but also that the $hite artwork and cr@p storytelling doesn't make up for it.

 

You missed the point. You had introduced a new word per issue metric as an arbiter of quality. I used an example near and dear to your heart to illustrate that simply having x percentage less words than a Silver Age comic means that a book is automatically bad.

 

And for the record, I don't think this is the greatest thing Ellis has ever written. I don't expect him to do that for Marvel. But I do take issue with draggin $$ into a discussion about the quality of a work. I mean... do you really think it's a good idea for writers to sit around worrying that there might not be enough words on the page instead of worrying about how best to tell the story?

 

I think a lot of writing today has become extremely loose and sloppy because writers have to churn out 5 and 6-issue story arcs for the TPB market. And, if they get too lazy, not a problem - Marvel will just make 1602 an 8-issue mini-series instead of a 7-issue one or extend Ultimate Six by an extra issue. Same watered-down story spread out over one more issue to sell another 100,000 copies.

 

You may be right. There sure is a lot of garbage being produced today. There's a reason I only read a handful of Marvel titles.

 

But, on the other hand, you could also have made the same "lazy" argument as the norm moved from short stories in the longer form stories in the 60s and 70s. Compared to what Kurtzman did on the EC war titles or what Eisner/Feiffer did in on the Spirit in just 8 pages, even the tightest 20+ page story can look a little padded out. Obviously, there's merit in doing full issue, and mutli-issue stories. Just in the same way there is merit in decompressed storytelling, even if it's only truly realized when the book is collected.

[rob_react]

So a glowing image in space just happens to take on the exact appearance of the Ebola Virus???

 

I read that as sort of a mini-montage moment so that what it represented was some sort of virus, not as a direct, literal continuation of the "comet strike sequence."