Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[COI]

Perhaps if so many people weren't so fixated on grades and motivated by greed this wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is. Oh well.

 

People were fixated on grades because a 40 year-old, fragile piece of newsprint originally intended for consumption by children that somehow managed to survive the ravages of time in pristine NM+ or NM/MT was a special thing. I remember cruising ebay in 2001 and seeing some early ASMs being sold in CGC 9.6 condition; this was early on, before the census was up, and I was absolutely floored that books from 1963 were in such high grade. Looking at those books, the premium made sense, as did the demand.

 

What it comes down to is low hanging fruit. A process that can turn books that are relatively common in grade into a higher, much more uncommon, and much sought after grade was bound to catch on like wildfire. I used to agree with your sentiment that the high grade collector created this monster, but time as made me change that position. This was almost inevitable, as those who don't like pressing left and were replaced - in the context of e-commerce and an increased interest in superheroes and comic books as a whole - by collectors entering the fray who are either blissfully unaware of pressing, or come into the game embracing it. Not only does this new breed accept it, they fail to grasp why anyone is bothered by it at all.

[Transplant]

Steven Eichenbaum, CEO of the Certified Collectibles Group, comments on this move: “Our primary purpose has always been to act in a protective role to the collectibles fields in which we operate. While I feel the value that PCS brings to the market has been misunderstood, we have always listened to all sides of every argument and responded to collectors and hobbyist as a fundamental component of our business development. Ultimately we did not feel that we were serving in the collectors’ best interest if there was a perception of conflict between CGC and PCS.”

[oakman29]

Franky I never really understood the huge multiples keys get going from 9.2 to 9.4,9.4 to 9.6 and 9.6 to 9.8. There really isn't that much of a difference grade wise as apposed to prices fetched.

[comicwiz]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

Thanks for posting that. (thumbs u

 

I've said this many times in the past, and I'll say it again in light of this clear illustration: pressing completely defeats the purpose of high grade collecting, or at least, it defeats the purpose of paying a premium for high grade books.

 

Maybe CGC's new acquisition will accelerate the speed at which collectors grasp that fact, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

We can only hope the days of marginal 9.8s (i.e. all the 9.4-9.6 books sitting in 9.8 holders) commanding 2-3-4x the 9.6 price are soon to be over. And of course when that happens the incentive for pressing books to begin with will dissipate. If price multiples compress then it will no longer be worthwhile financially to CPR.

 

Right. And when coin examples are brought into the discussion in an effort to draw parallels to the "health" of markets using manipulative practices to eke out the Benjamins, there is definitely a noticeable resistance in both movement and value attainment for coins known and/or even suspected to have been "improved" or "conserved." I would say that once the trust factor becomes suspect even for graded items (remember this is supposed to be the safe haven for people looking to spend big bucks who aren't interested in burrowing down on a lengthy learning curve), it's a pretty clear signal that the collector market might be readying itself for a full retreat and in search of another hobby.

[mysterio]

I know I'm getting really tired of gift grades from pre-hero Marvels that I've both submitted myself and purchased through various auction houses and/or eBay. That might be contributing to some of the price relaxation that we've seen too. If you are paying premium money you want a premium book (or at least an accurately graded one), and when you get a 9.4 book with a 9.8 label or a 5.5 book with a 6.5 label it starts getting discouraging. This, more than anything else it seems to me, is what has opened the door for something like CVA, as there are plenty of books out there lately that don't deserve the label they have.

[VintageComics]

 

Bumped because I'm easy going and don't mind being the butt of Sean's jokes.

 

And because I'm right.

 

Nothing personal man, I just thought the Litch groin bump was pretty funny.

 

Oh, I know. Sean is one of the funniest guys I know.

 

And I'm still right.

 

[COI]

I know I'm getting really tired of gift grades from pre-hero Marvels that I've both submitted myself and purchased through various auction houses and/or eBay. That might be contributing to some of the price relaxation that we've seen too. If you are paying premium money you want a premium book (or at least an accurately graded one) and when you get a 9.4 book with a 9.8 label or a 5.5 book with a 6.5 label it starts getting discouraging.

 

I don't see how anyone who collects books and not labels or registry point wouldn't be discouraged at this point.

[Transplant]

Classic reading on the about face of PCS last time.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1139470#Post1139470

 

Well, we did try and tell them it was a stinker.

[VintageComics]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

[drbanner]

I know I'm getting really tired of gift grades from pre-hero Marvels that I've both submitted myself and purchased through various auction houses and/or eBay. That might be contributing to some of the price relaxation that we've seen too. If you are paying premium money you want a premium book (or at least an accurately graded one), and when you get a 9.4 book with a 9.8 label or a 5.5 book with a 6.5 label it starts getting discouraging. This, more than anything else it seems to me, is what has opened the door for something like CVA, as there are plenty of books out there lately that don't deserve the label they have.

 

Indeed, a 9.2 or 9.4 used to be a pretty nice book with maybe a few spine stresses, a teeny corner crease, a bit of wear at the spine corners, etc.,. These days I see 9.4/9.6's all the time with multiple spine stresses that are clearly obvious from a scan. So, the quality of the product has declined at the same time the supply has increased (and will do so even more dramatically moving forward). Same thing with low and mid-grades, of which I am the proud owner of many from 2.0 on up.

 

Unfortunately, CVA doesn't address the loosening of grading standards objectively since they've stated that their label is intended to be a hybrid analysis of both the technical grade, and the eye appeal of a book. To me, for the most part these are independent traits of any given book. So...FAIL for them.

[comicwiz]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

Outside of the post-press damage scenario, there is the very real possibility that outer facing covers clinging to the inner well, combined with a free-floating interior and the sudden or hazardous shifting and/or movement towards the outer edge during shipment, may be as much a culprit.

[VintageComics]

You can even get a 9.6:

 

What is really neat is how the top of the staple is further indented than the bottom of the staple.

 

I wonder how a press did that. Or it didn't and the top prong is just tighter than the bottom one from production.

 

 

Again, you've lost track. This was presented as an example of a comic that can have an impacted staple and still garner a 9.6 from CGC.

 

That staples are sometimes indented during the production process has no bearing on the examples of staple indentation from books pressed by CCG's new pressing service.

 

You've got this picture magnified several times and some people can still barely see the "impacted" staple. I imagine in hand it's hardly even noticeable and may not prevent the book from garnering a 9.8, let alone a 9.6.

 

 

Comics were not manufactured to exacting standards. If they were throw away magazines made for kids they are going to have inherent defects from production. Those defects are going to range in severity defending on whether the guy running the presses was flirting with the admin secretary or not. We can strain under microscopes and find all kinds of reasons why a book should not grade even a VG if we want to, but to the naked eye, at arms length I don't think a defect like this would even be caught by many people.

[Dale Roberts]

Worldwide I'd bet that 75% or better of comic collectors aren't interested in graded books at all.

I continue to be surprised at the low percentage of graded books at most smallish to mid-sized shows. The thousands of slabs that are for sale on ebay any given week always give me the impression that the market for slabs is far larger. But I still routinely hear dealers explaining to prospective buyers terms like CGC, slabbing, resto checks, etc.

 

So yeah, there is a big percentage of the hobby that has never got on the carousel.

 

Look at the cost of getting a Bronze Age or earlier graded - $25 give or take after discount, including sh/ins, etc. I suspect the vast majority of books at most shows are worth $50 or less, so slabbing these books doesn't make financial sense. As such, I imagine the vast majority of books in this hobby are not affected by CGC, slabbing, or pressing. Likewise, I suspect the vast majority of money made by dealers and collectors in this hobby is affected by CGC, slabbing, pressing, and this wonderful (d)evolution in our hobby. Follow the $$!

 

Actually, I will get into this type of discussion several times of years with collectors who want to know why I don't have more of my inventory graded. If you have seen what I carry, most of my raw SA stuff (probably 90%) is in the 8.0 to 9.4 range. People ask why I don't get more of that stuff graded.

 

It is simple math. If you take a $100.00 book, for which you (hopefully) paid $50. By the time you press it, grade it, then you are into the book for $80. Right there tells you it leaves little profit. Then, if you figure a 6 month grading time, and the buyer asking for a discount, it is pretty evident it doesn't make any sense.

 

 

 

For the majority of your raw SA stock, you pay 50% of what you think you can get for a comic? I would have thought that would be a lot lower.

 

As I said, almost all my raw stock is high grade as well. And I try to keep high grade copies of most SA Marvel & DCs in stock. That means paying solid prices on stuff. Obviously, I will buy cheaper if I get the opportunity, but if someone has something I don't have in inventory, I will pay at least 50% of what I sell it for, and often times considerably more depending upon the book and the grade.

 

With people selling their own stuff on ebay and other places (auctions, the boards, etc), I am paying more and more for inventory all the time.

 

As

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Why do you think people still sell a few HG SA comics to you rather than getting FMV on ebay or some such? Convenience?

 

If you could get FMV on ebay, that would be a good question. However, since most of the time, you get about 70% of FMV on ebay (or less), and then have to pay shipping, deal with returns, pay feebay and paypal, you are looking at getting basically the same money that I would pay you with none of the headaches.

 

I also buy alot of stuff that would not bring anywhere near FMV on ebay, but books that I have customers for. Plus, I don't just buy one book at a time. I will buy the whole collection, or at least all of the high grade stuff.

 

And of course, the better the stuff is, the more I pay for it. Sometimes I pay double guide or more for certain books in certain grades.

[COI]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

[Chespirito]

This is a weird conversation

[Dale Roberts]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

[COI]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

 

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Franky I never really understood the huge multiples keys get going from 9.2 to 9.4,9.4 to 9.6 and 9.6 to 9.8. There really isn't that much of a difference grade wise as apposed to prices fetched.

Digital 9s= artificial value= profit $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Edited November 19, 2012 by ComicConnoisseur

[VintageComics]

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

More or less.

 

I already stated that if I ran a business that pressed books for people I wouldn't offer any sort of a guarantee against damage during the process. It's a risk, comics are too fragile and not made to any real exacting mechanical standards and the risk should be on the owner of the book making the decision to press the book and not the company doing the pressing.

 

The only qualifier would obviously be if there is negligence involved (oops, your book was dropped or someone dropped a pizza slice on it).

 

Since this sort of defect (the impacted staple) occurs on unpressed books and pressed books and because it it likely related to production, it can't possibly be the fault of just the press.

 

So who do you go after for "damaging" the book?

 

That's what the diagnostic tech in me says, anyway.

 

 

[VintageComics]

This is a weird conversation

 

Yes, I much prefer your "normal" posts.