Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[Transplant]

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

You forgot the Plitch groin thrust damage.

[VintageComics]

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

You forgot the Plitch groin thrust damage.

 

No, he didn't. He has added that particular move to his own personal arsenal and was trying to hide it by not mentioning it.

[Dale Roberts]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

 

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

 

Roy is right that the encapsulation process can shift the cover slighty so that the staple will appear impacted. I have seen it. I don't know if Smashed corner syndrome might also affect staple impact if the book hit on the edge of the spine.

 

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

[comicwiz]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

 

crotch-ramming

 

Just in case anyone gets the idea that it is necessary to disclose this, I'm good with not needing to know

[COI]

Ultimately, this is a futile discussion. Individuals who feel their books have been damaged by pressing will post their evidence or experience, those who suckle at the CPR tit will either deny or minimize whatever is presented because it's in their interests to do so, and round and round we will continue to go.

 

I don't know if pressing damages books. My advice to those who are concerned about it would be don't get your books pressed.

[Transplant]

Roy is right that the encapsulation process can shift the cover slighty so that the staple will appear impacted. I have seen it. I don't know if Smashed corner syndrome might also affect staple impact if the book hit on the edge of the spine.

 

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

Agreed. Damage while at CGC is an underdiscussed topic here. For most people who've noticed it, I hear the response has also been "prove it".

 

Dale:

 

What is your opinion on the CI acquisition?

[VintageComics]

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

 

And this is exactly why I would rather pay for a premium service and have someone take their time than get a cheap rush job or have graders and encapsulators work long hours into the wee hours of the night.

 

I generally believe you get what you pay for, over all.

[TupennyConan]

I don't know if pressing damages books. My advice to those who are concerned about it would be don't get your books pressed.

 

My advice is to run a cost benefit on a per book basis & then decide for yourself.

[Dale Roberts]

Roy is right that the encapsulation process can shift the cover slighty so that the staple will appear impacted. I have seen it. I don't know if Smashed corner syndrome might also affect staple impact if the book hit on the edge of the spine.

 

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

Agreed. Damage while at CGC is an underdiscussed topic here. For most people who've noticed it, I hear the response has also been "prove it".

 

Dale:

 

What is your opinion on the CI acquisition?

 

Until I see a problem which results from the acquisition, I have no problem with it.

 

I honestly don't see anything happening which has not been done before. Books have been getting pressed by CI, they submit them to CGC, books get graded. Should be the exact same process now.

 

Is there the appearance of a possibility of conflict of interest? Sure. However, if Paul and the other graders really don't know whose books they are grading, then I don't see how it is a problem.

 

The only difference I see is that Matt's pockets are more full than they were before, CCG is getting a portion of the pressing money, and now you know for sure that CGC's stance on pressing will never change.

 

To me, this thread should have been about 3 pages long.

 

I would much rather see 100 pages about getting the submissions back on schedule.

[VintageComics]

I don't know if pressing damages books. My advice to those who are concerned about it would be don't get your books pressed.

 

Pressing itself technically does not damage books that are healthy candidates but I can see spines splitting on unhealthy candidates that are brittle.

 

If damage occurs, it usually happens through either poor handling at some point along the way or using a book that wasn't a good candidate - something not always apparent because people are not used to scrutinizing every book all the time.

 

This is a post I made last week in the grading/resto forum that describes my experience with pressing and damage.

 

 

Absolutely correct. I'm not going to paint it as a lost cause but I have repeatedly stated that it's not a win-win situation 100% of the time and quite honestly, if you don't like risk I'd think about it before doing it.

 

Here are a few things that can happen:

 

Book is handled multiple times so more exposure to possible damage from handling.

Book is shipped multiple times to more exposure to possible shipping loss and damage.

Some pressing procedures introduce moisture and you can have moisture damage or water spots

Heat and pressure is involved and damage can happen to books (spine splits, wrinkles, staple pulls, foreign materials imbedding into books, materials on the books like colour or glue reacting to press and moisture, etc).

CGC missing resto or trim the first time around and finding it the second time around - book goes from blue to another coloured label.

Book staying the same grade even though pressable defects are removed.

Book goes down in grade even though pressable defects are removed and no damage is introduced - CGC just feels differently about the book 2nd time around

 

How do I know these things happen? Each and every one of them has happened to me or someone I know.

[COI]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

 

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

 

Roy is right that the encapsulation process can shift the cover slighty so that the staple will appear impacted. I have seen it. I don't know if Smashed corner syndrome might also affect staple impact if the book hit on the edge of the spine.

 

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

 

I don't disagree with any of this, and you and Roy are exponentially more experienced with handling books and the whole press-submit process than I ever will be.

 

The problem I'm having is that IF pressing is causing these problems, what little evidence exists will be denied and minimized by the majority. Even if this denial is done on a logical basis, if pressing is indeed causing damage of this nature, it won't be acknowledged.

 

It's convenient, that's all I'm saying.

[gyro-1]

Ultimately, this is a futile discussion. Individuals who feel their books have been damaged by pressing will post their evidence or experience, those who suckle at the CPR tit will either deny or minimize whatever is presented because it's in their interests to do so, and round and round we will continue to go.

 

I don't know if pressing damages books. My advice to those who are concerned about it would be don't get your books pressed.

Sanity has entered this topic at last !

 

 

[TupennyConan]

Ultimately, this is a futile discussion. Individuals who feel their books have been damaged by pressing will post their evidence or experience, those who suckle at the CPR tit will either deny or minimize whatever is presented because it's in their interests to do so, and round and round we will continue to go.

 

I don't know if pressing damages books. My advice to those who are concerned about it would be don't get your books pressed.

Sanity has entered this topic at last !

 

 

Almost.

[COI]

I don't know if pressing damages books. My advice to those who are concerned about it would be don't get your books pressed.

 

My advice is to run a cost benefit on a per book basis & then decide for yourself.

 

A cost benefit analysis per book would be prudent for the individual, but it doesn't take into consideration that damaging 40+ year-old books unnecessarily is unfortunate and short-sighted.

[Dale Roberts]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

 

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

 

Roy is right that the encapsulation process can shift the cover slighty so that the staple will appear impacted. I have seen it. I don't know if Smashed corner syndrome might also affect staple impact if the book hit on the edge of the spine.

 

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

 

I don't disagree with any of this, and you and Roy are exponentially more experienced with handling books and the whole press-submit process than I ever will be.

 

The problem I'm having is that IF pressing is causing these problems, what little evidence exists will be denied and minimized by the majority. Even if this denial is done on a logical basis, if pressing is indeed causing damage of this nature, it won't be acknowledged.

 

It's convenient, that's all I'm saying.

 

Look at it this way....

 

Pressing probably damages about 1 in 100 books. The other 99 books, pressing makes better.

 

Submitting books to CGC probably damages 2 in 100 books(due to more people handling the books and encapsulation process). The other 98 books remain exactly as they were.

 

Both are clearly a money grab. Which is worse?

[COI]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

 

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

 

Roy is right that the encapsulation process can shift the cover slighty so that the staple will appear impacted. I have seen it. I don't know if Smashed corner syndrome might also affect staple impact if the book hit on the edge of the spine.

 

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

 

I don't disagree with any of this, and you and Roy are exponentially more experienced with handling books and the whole press-submit process than I ever will be.

 

The problem I'm having is that IF pressing is causing these problems, what little evidence exists will be denied and minimized by the majority. Even if this denial is done on a logical basis, if pressing is indeed causing damage of this nature, it won't be acknowledged.

 

It's convenient, that's all I'm saying.

 

Look at it this way....

 

Pressing probably damages about 1 in 100 books. The other 99 books, pressing makes better.

 

Submitting books to CGC probably damages 2 in 100 books(due to more people handling the books and encapsulation process). The other 98 books remain exactly as they were.

 

Both are clearly a money grab. Which is worse?

 

I see your logic, but even if those numbers are correct, and they may not be, you're not taking into account what happens to the probability that a book will be damaged when you combine both practices.

[Transplant]

Until I see a problem which results from the acquisition, I have no problem with it.

 

I honestly don't see anything happening which has not been done before. Books have been getting pressed by CI, they submit them to CGC, books get graded. Should be the exact same process now.

 

Is there the appearance of a possibility of conflict of interest? Sure. However, if Paul and the other graders really don't know whose books they are grading, then I don't see how it is a problem.

 

That's a mighty big if. Before, CGC had no direct financial interest in knowing whose book is being graded. Now they do. That's the problem to me.

[Dale Roberts]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples).

 

Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem.

 

Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production.

The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

 

So essentially, what you're saying is that since indented staples exist independent of pressing, it's not a defect you would associate with pressing, and on that basis you're concluding that the staple on Bob's book, and that indented staples in general, cannot be attributed to pressing.

 

This is convenient for people who make money on pressing, since it essentially amounts to "PROVE IT". And the kind of proof required to circumvent the above reasoning would have to be nothing short of videotaping the person who pressed the book as he indents the staple.

 

or you can just provide a before and after pic.....

 

That wouldn't be sufficient by Roy's logic though, since the damage could happen in transit from owner to presser, in transit from presser to CGC, during the grading process due to crotch-ramming, or in transit from CGC back to the submitter.

 

Roy is right that the encapsulation process can shift the cover slighty so that the staple will appear impacted. I have seen it. I don't know if Smashed corner syndrome might also affect staple impact if the book hit on the edge of the spine.

 

Clearly, anything where a book is handled can result in damage. Pressing, grading, or handing the books to someone for submission to be packed in a box.

 

I think most of the problems occur when someone is not taking the appropriate amount of time to handle the book correctly, regardless of the reason.

 

If you want to keep your books in pristine condition, keep them in a mylar in your closet. If you want to sub them (in any way), you are taking a risk.

 

I don't disagree with any of this, and you and Roy are exponentially more experienced with handling books and the whole press-submit process than I ever will be.

 

The problem I'm having is that IF pressing is causing these problems, what little evidence exists will be denied and minimized by the majority. Even if this denial is done on a logical basis, if pressing is indeed causing damage of this nature, it won't be acknowledged.

 

It's convenient, that's all I'm saying.

 

Look at it this way....

 

Pressing probably damages about 1 in 100 books. The other 99 books, pressing makes better.

 

Submitting books to CGC probably damages 2 in 100 books(due to more people handling the books and encapsulation process). The other 98 books remain exactly as they were.

 

Both are clearly a money grab. Which is worse?

 

I see your logic, but even if those numbers are correct, and they may not be, you're not taking into account what happens to the probability that a book will be damaged when you combine both practices.

 

Oh, there is no doubt that CGC has damaged more of MY books than pressing has......and its not even close.

[TupennyConan]

I don't know if pressing damages books. My advice to those who are concerned about it would be don't get your books pressed.

 

My advice is to run a cost benefit on a per book basis & then decide for yourself.

 

A cost benefit analysis per book would be prudent for the individual, but it doesn't take into consideration that damaging 40+ year-old books unnecessarily is unfortunate and short-sighted.

 

Unless the individual running the C/B takes into consideration as part of that C/B that damaging 40+ year-old books might be something they may view as being unnecessary after running that C/B & that they may also determine that it is unfortunate and short-sighted or they might go for it & crush those puppies into maximum big money profit & in so doing make those books more lovely & glittery in the end.

[Dale Roberts]

Until I see a problem which results from the acquisition, I have no problem with it.

 

I honestly don't see anything happening which has not been done before. Books have been getting pressed by CI, they submit them to CGC, books get graded. Should be the exact same process now.

 

Is there the appearance of a possibility of conflict of interest? Sure. However, if Paul and the other graders really don't know whose books they are grading, then I don't see how it is a problem.

 

That's a mighty big if. Before, CGC had no direct financial interest in knowing whose book is being graded. Now they do. That's the problem to me.

 

Well, that has always been a problem. Especially for walk through books.

 

It is short sighted to think they would risk the integrity of their business over the relatively few books that Matt presses, in relation to the overall number of books subbed to CGC.

 

The fact is, Matt is very good at what he does. He doesn't need CGC to provide him a bump on grades. Most of the books that he presses will get that bump anyway.