Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[VintageComics]

Well, I personally prefer a numerical system to the old days... if for no other reason than it takes up less room on my labels.

 

Not to mention the fact that the alpha scale makes zero intuitive sense to an outsider/newbie. 2.0 out of 10.0? Yep, easy to see why that grade sucks from an objective standpoint. Explaining why "good" actually means bad, or getting the casual seller to not use "good" to describe a book in decent condition is much tougher.

 

I am all for CGC only using the numerical value.

 

The only reason Overstreet did not go with a numerical scale from the start is likely because he hadn't thought of it as the old system slowly evolved out of phrases. There still was a numerical system in place, it was just hidden. The values were reflected with numerical multiples. 1-3-6 or 1-5-10 or 1-3-6-8 or whatever they were.

 

Most systems evolve over time towards "better" systems.

 

The grading system is what it is, and it is basically a secret code that grew out of a bunch of nerds grading comics before they were worth much more than cover price.

 

Nothing stays the same.

[fantastic_four]

The only reason Overstreet did not go with a numerical scale from the start is likely because he hadn't thought of it as the old system slowly evolved out of phrases.

 

The named grades preceded Overstreet publishing anything, and it seems fairly clear they derived from some of the same designations coins were using. Where else would we get "Mint" from for paper...minting is what they do to coins.

[VintageComics]

I think it's hilarious that the King of Equivocation and Seeing Both Sides of the Argument can't, for a moment, fathom that there might exist a conflict of interest having CI inhouse. Hilarious or sadly self-preserving, I can't figure out which. Or both.

 

You're not even reading what I post any more, you're just making your mind up about me and reacting emotionally rather than keeping to the discussion at hand.

 

I believe that there is a time for equivocating and a time for not and once you've whittled something down to it's simplest form there is no more room for equivocation. That's why I brought up the Chinese Wall several times, but nobody that I was able to read in this thread has really discussed it.

 

I wrote this:

 

If the "Chinese Wall" stands and an investor has no "voting rights" and can not affect the grade outcome of a book, if the Senior consignment director at Heritage who used to be President of CGC can not have any more effect on the grade outcome of a book than his current employer and if the resto expert can not have any more or less affect on the grade of a book than he did when he pressed and removed restoration in Texas, then is it a conflict of interest in reality?

 

I am concerned about the integrity of the system because I have a vested interest in it.

 

I guess that all depends on how secure that wall is.

 

Do you not have anything constructive to add or answer to it or do you just want to call me names?

 

It's basically a question. I asked it because I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the answer.

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

The only reason Overstreet did not go with a numerical scale from the start is likely because he hadn't thought of it as the old system slowly evolved out of phrases.

 

The named grades preceded Overstreet publishing anything, and it seems fairly clear they derived from some of the same designations coins were using. Where else would we get "Mint" from for paper...minting is what they do to coins.

 

I think my point is that if someone had come up with a numerical scale 50 years ago, nobody would be arguing that we need to find alphabetic equivalents.

 

It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc.

 

Metric is not evil but it is portrayed to be as such by those that don't like changing to it. Once the change is made it's day and night easier.

[Dale Roberts]

Is this a debate about who should be the MVP?

 

It certainly is taking on alot of the characteristics of a "sabermetrics" vs old school baseball stats argument.

 

Personally I vote Trout.

[HOTFLIPS]

Is this a debate about who should be the MVP?

 

It certainly is taking on alot of the characteristics of a "sabermetrics" vs old school baseball stats argument.

 

Personally I vote Trout.

 

Finally a topic i know a little about. Enough of this comic stuff. Dude!! Cabrera won the Triple Crown. THE TRIPLE CROWN!! And he got his team to the World Series.

 

Jeff

[Silver Surfer]

 

It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc.

 

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on.

[VintageComics]

 

It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc.

 

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on.

 

More people use it now than they did 30+ years ago when they switched over.

 

[thunsicker]

 

It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc.

 

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on.

 

Pretty much no-one uses the metric system... other than the 6.6 billion people who don't live in the U.S.

[fantastic_four]

 

It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc.

 

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on.

 

I use named designators for such things. Are you Near Obese/Obese, or are you straight up Obese?

[mysterio]

 

It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc.

 

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on.

 

I measure stuff in millimeters and centimeters all the time, but still have a tough time thinking of things in terms of meters, kilometers, kilograms, etc. And don't get me started on degrees Celsius. I know it makes more sense, but when you grow up with Fahrenheit it is tough to adjust.

[fantastic_four]

Pretty much no-one uses the metric system... other than the 6.6 billion people who don't live in the U.S.

 

And they don't count, so yep, nobody uses it.

[VintageComics]

 

It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc.

 

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on.

 

Pretty much no-one uses the metric system... other than the 6.6 billion people who don't live in the U.S.

 

England too.

 

 

And my analogy of the Metric/Imperial conversion was not meant to be a dig at any country, it was just a very real life analogy that would help my point in a way many people would understand.

[VintageComics]

Pretty much no-one uses the metric system... other than the 6.6 billion people who don't live in the U.S.

 

And they don't count, so yep, nobody uses it.

 

My bro in law used to work for Bridgestone/Firestone. They had offices in Italy (I believe), Japan and America. Their largest hindrance between offices was language. Even though they worked for the same company, the language slowed progress down.

 

There is always going to be a progression towards simplification to gain broader appeal. The Metric system is one of those progressions.

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

Is this a debate about who should be the MVP?

 

It certainly is taking on alot of the characteristics of a "sabermetrics" vs old school baseball stats argument.

 

Personally I vote Trout.

 

Finally a topic i know a little about. Enough of this comic stuff. Dude!! Cabrera won the Triple Crown. THE TRIPLE CROWN!! And he got his team to the World Series.

 

Jeff

 

Cabrera was the best offensive player. Trout was the most valuable player. Value in baseball is about wins. Wins is a factor of runs scored vs runs allowed.

 

There is a high correlation between run differential (or Runs scored vs runs allowed) and wins. As evidence of this, no team with a below .500 record had a positive run differential this year. That is a fancy way of saying they scored less runs than they allowed. Every team with a .500 or better record scored more runs than they allowed. This fact tells me that there are at least 2 components to determining value, that is runs created and runs saved. Defense does make a difference.

 

Offensive value should come from primarily 1 area...runs created. Runs created encompasses so many different factors of offense, from hitting, to effective slugging, to baserunning. It also includes factors which are not included in sabermetric stats, such as the ability to hit a sacrifice fly, or drive in a run from 3rd base on a ground ball to the 2nd baseman. These 2 things have value, even though they are not factored in to the advanced metrics. There are new stats such as extra base taken%, but these are all included in runs scored. An extra base taken or a stolen base which does not score, generally has zero value. In actual value(runs created), the only stats that really have an impact on the club's win total are runs scored and runs driven in.

 

So my formula to determine the most valuable player would be the player who creates the most runs on offense and the player who saves the most runs on defense. Runs created + runs saved = MVP. Runs saved is extremely hard to judge, so going with metrics of plus or minus runs saved above average from Fan Graphs and the Fielding Bible.

 

Cabrera - 139 RBI + 109 runs - 44 HRs +(-8 PMRS) = 196

Trout - 83 RBI + 129 runs - 30 HRs + (21 PMRS) = 203

 

When you include defense, it is clear that Trout is in fact more valuable to his team than Cabrera. I was somewhat surprised by this outcome, but I feel it is a very fair way to evaluate who is the Most Valuable.

 

 

[skypinkblu]

We're talking about comic books, right? Whether they are in plastic or not, right?

 

And 95% of the back issue market deals in Alpha grades. They are not going anywhere and that proportion of the market that they're recognised in isn't going to change much.

 

So why does a very small proportion of the same hobby not use Alpha like everybody else?

 

And it's not a 'natural progression'. It's a simplification. It's describing a condition, rather like 'beautiful', 'sexy' or 'dog-rough' describe. Now, unless you're suggesting that those adjectives will soon be replaced by '3267', '10097' and '72', it's not a 'natural progession'. It's a code, just as the Alpha scale was a code, and when one code dominates 95% of the market, I have to wonder why the numbers are actually needed?

 

In fact, they could be a barrier to new blood coming into the slabbed market. Without the Alpha code, there are people who will not understand - and consequently not trust - what they are actually getting.

 

 

Tradition is the only answer I can come up with.

 

That's a pretty good answer and one I hadn't thought of. Maybe that tradition does have a place for the time being.

 

I'm truly lost, Roy...are you saying the answer you wrote is a good one?

 

I have to agree with Nick, most people I deal with on eBay, or when I talk to people at shows, identify slabs by numerical grades, raw books by letter (word) grades.

 

It seemed to me that the changing to numerical grades was an effort to make the new system special.

 

 

[Logan510]

Is this a debate about who should be the MVP?

 

It certainly is taking on alot of the characteristics of a "sabermetrics" vs old school baseball stats argument.

 

Personally I vote Trout.

 

Finally a topic i know a little about. Enough of this comic stuff. Dude!! Cabrera won the Triple Crown. THE TRIPLE CROWN!! And he got his team to the World Series.

 

Jeff

 

'nuff said

[VintageComics]

I'm truly lost, Roy...are you saying the answer you wrote is a good one?

 

I have to agree with Nick, most people I deal with on eBay, or when I talk to people at shows, identify slabs by numerical grades, raw books by letter (word) grades.

 

It seemed to me that the changing to numerical grades was an effort to make the new system special.

 

 

Nope, I was trying to show that it's because of tradition that we do it and it may have it's place for now.

 

And to me the numerical grades make things easier, and certainly more easy for the average person to understand since people understand 1-10 much easier than G/GVG/VG/VGF etc.

 

Again, I'm not being pushy about it. Just discussing it. Like MCMiles said, I personally don't care either way as I can see the appeal for both sides (equivocating spoiler) but I tend to favour the numerical one for obvious reasons (non-equivocating spoiler).

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

I'm truly lost, Roy...are you saying the answer you wrote is a good one?

 

I have to agree with Nick, most people I deal with on eBay, or when I talk to people at shows, identify slabs by numerical grades, raw books by letter (word) grades.

 

It seemed to me that the changing to numerical grades was an effort to make the new system special.

 

 

Nope, I was trying to show that it's because of tradition that we do it and it may have it's place for now.

 

And to me the numerical grades make things easier, and certainly more easy for the average person to understand since people understand 1-10 much easier than G/GVG/VG/VGF etc.

 

Again, I'm not being pushy about it. Just discussing it. Like MCMiles said, I personally don't care either way as I can see the appeal for both sides (equivocating spoiler) but I tend to favour the numerical one for obvious reasons (non-equivocating spoiler).

 

\

 

Obviously, you don't care at all.....

 

You have only posted 46 times in this thread since yesterday...

[VintageComics]

Obviously, you don't care at all.....

 

You have only posted 46 times in this thread since yesterday...

 

I care about the "why" in every discussion, not the "what". That's why it's a discussion.