Bigger BA Key: ASM 121 or Batman 232?

[bronze johnny]

Which is the more valuable and historically significant Bronze Age key:

 

Amazing Spider-Man 121?

 

or

 

Batman 232?

 

 

[Ken Aldred]

Neal Adams fan, Ra's Al Ghul my favourite Batman villain, so not ASM 121 despite being a great book.

[The Madness]

I might be a little biased, but The Night Gwen Stacy died is my favorite story of all time. The death became a huge part to not only Peter's/Spider-Man's life, but became a huge part in comics in general by killing off such an important character. The cover is iconic itself and it's also been known as the story that ended the silver age/started the bronze age. It was also a love/hate relationship between me and 121. I loved the story, but I hated that Gwen died. Would have loved to see it end the way What If 24 went...

[Cyclops]

Batman #232 for me.

 

[oakman29]

I'm a huge Ras fan,and Bats 232 is my favorite Adams book,but......

ASM 121 The death of Gwen Stacey is a huge book,so my vote is ASM 121. (thumbs u

[Kevin.J]

I'm a huge Ras fan,and Bats 232 is my favorite Adams book,but......

ASM 121 The death of Gwen Stacey is a huge book,so my vote is ASM 121. (thumbs u

 

I couldnt have said it better (thumbs u

[scooter99]

My vote was for ASM121 as well. It was one of the first books I mail ordered and luckily it didn't get ruined in the mail. I think I bought it in 1979 for $10 or $12.

[MK Ultra]

I voted Bats. Ras is a huge villain, heralded arrival of Talia and League of Assassins.

 

I was too young to see the intro of Gwen, don't really recall too much of any effects of it. Death being a part of life, I'd expect everyone to die. Plus this is Marvel; A - the whole universe is a dream of Kang's, and B - they could retconn it tomorrow and then where would I be? Since nobody really dies in Marvel, doesn't realy strike me as big.

[bane]

I voted #232 because I'm a huge Bat fan and haven't read ASM past issue 25.

[Brian48]

ASM 121 for me. Talia was the first girl I ever lusted for, but Gwen was the first I fell in love with.

 

Ras may be a major character (now), but the death of Gwen sent ripples through the comic world that is still remembered to this day.

[mintcollector]

I wasn't aware that ASM 121 is even in the same caliber of Bat 232. ASM 129 yes, but 121...really?

 

Just my opinion.

[bronze johnny]

Generally, a look at the past several decades will demonstrate that ASM 129 has been a major BA key. In fact, ASM 129 has "competed" with the other major BA Marvel keys. Usually placing 4th after the "triumvirate." ASM 121 has historically been priced lower than 129 but placed higher than Bats 232 in the OSPG. Moreover, Bats 234 was up until the recent Batman movies, priced higher than 232. From an historical perspective, the first appearance of Ras has recently grown to a greater degree of importance, I'm wondering whether Ras' intro has now surpassed the historical significance of ASM 121 and is the reason why the question was raised and boardies here were polled. There appears to be an even split as to which is a bigger key according to the poll.

 

John

[Badger]

I voted Bats. Ras is a huge villain, heralded arrival of Talia and League of Assassins.

 

I was too young to see the intro of Gwen, don't really recall too much of any effects of it. Death being a part of life, I'd expect everyone to die. Plus this is Marvel; A - the whole universe is a dream of Kang's, and B - they could retconn it tomorrow and then where would I be? Since nobody really dies in Marvel, doesn't realy strike me as big.

 

Just curious because I don't follow DC that much: Has anyone in the DC Universe ever died and stayed dead?

 

Jason Todd?

Hal Jordan?

Superman?

Batman?

[Cyclops]

Generally, a look at the past several decades will demonstrate that ASM 129 has been a major BA key. In fact, ASM 129 has "competed" with the other major BA Marvel keys. Usually placing 4th after the "triumvirate." ASM 121 has historically been priced lower than 129 but placed higher than Bats 232 in the OSPG. Moreover, Bats 234 was up until the recent Batman movies, priced higher than 232. From an historical perspective, the first appearance of Ras has recently grown to a greater degree of importance, I'm wondering whether Ras' intro has now surpassed the historical significance of ASM 121 and is the reason why the question was raised and boardies here were polled. There appears to be an even split as to which is a bigger key according to the poll.

 

John

 

It's a great question - those are two books you wouldn't necessarily think to compare but, as the poll shows, opinions are pretty evenly split.

 

I still think that the introduction of a character outweighs the "death" of a character, even one as shocking as Gwen's was.

 

And the WAY R'as was introduced - that striking cover, the gorgeous art, the perfect storytelling - it puts #232 into a league of it's own for me. It's a masterpiece.

[jaeldubyoo]

The death of Gwen Stacy is still more significant to me than the first appearance of Ra’s al Ghul. I guess you had to experience the sudden shock of Gwen’s death at the time it was written to truly understand the impact it had in comics. However, with the passing of time, the first appearance of Ra's al Ghul has become more prominent while the significance of Gwen's death has lessened.

[MK Ultra]

I voted Bats. Ras is a huge villain, heralded arrival of Talia and League of Assassins.

 

I was too young to see the intro of Gwen, don't really recall too much of any effects of it. Death being a part of life, I'd expect everyone to die. Plus this is Marvel; A - the whole universe is a dream of Kang's, and B - they could retconn it tomorrow and then where would I be? Since nobody really dies in Marvel, doesn't realy strike me as big.

 

Just curious because I don't follow DC that much: Has anyone in the DC Universe ever died and stayed dead?

 

Jason Todd?

Hal Jordan?

Superman?

Batman?

 

Both publishers have lots that were brought back.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deceased_American_comic_book_characters

 

But the pont isn't that only Marvel did this. My point was that a death isn't that big of a deal because it happens. Quite often. Egro, a death may, or may not, be a death and thus should never be a bigger key than the first appearance of a major villain.

[Ken Aldred]

Shocking at the time because we assumed the death would be treated with respect. Now we know, from years of experience, that in a comic book universe it's a temporary, minor ailment.

 

For me it's an important two-part story, and just as significant is the development of MJ's character in the final page of ASM 122, where she shows tremendous empathy towards Parker's grief, that she's been misjudged and is a lot more than just a two-dimensional, selfish, hedonistic airhead.

[kimik]

This poll question depends on two questions:

 

1) Did you read DC or Marvel when the books came out?

 

2) Were you even born when these books came out?

 

As someone who was born after the books case out, the death of Gwen Stacy means zip to me as MJ was the leading lady in ASM when I started to collect comics. As a Marvel fanboy starting out, ASM #42 was more important for me to snag than whatever issue Gwen first appeared in.

 

Batman #232 is the first appearance of arguably the #2 Batvillain, which is more significant to me.

[Ken Aldred]

 

Batman #232 is the first appearance of arguably the #2 Batvillain, which is more significant to me.

 

Yup. Joker or Ra's Al Ghul.

 

My favourite is the Demon.

[bronze johnny]

- Perhaps the saturation and re-birth of most comic book characters has had a negative impact on "death keys?" It's funny how in one sense the BA comic book realism that may have started with GL 76 and perhaps taken to the highest level with Gwen's death at some later point saw a reaction to the inevitability of death in the medium we love and collect- the "fantasy" of comic book characters returning from the dead was the "cure" that publishers later provided (Gwen being the exception), providing a "fantasy-based" approach contrary to the BA "Spirit of (GL) 76."

 

- Ras Is perhaps, the greatest villian to come out of Bronze and remains consistent with the "darker approach" started in Tec 395 that is a generation later expanded upon by Miller's Dark Knight. Interestingly, the evolution of Batman throughout the period following Miller generally remains consistent with the Adams "model" of a darker realism that started with Bronze. While the recent movies have helped to make Ras a more "popular," could the introduction of Ras very well be the apex of the BA Batman era of realism?

 

- As a collector of 1st apps. I tend to always give more weight to a character's intro but Gwen's death is not your typical one. Other than the introduction of the antihero, these two books provide the additional BA "realism" contributions to the history of this great American medium.

Putting aside our preferences for Bats or Spidey, Gwen's death or Ras' "birth?"

 

Thanks to all the boardies here for your great contributions and fantastic insights to this thread!

 

John