Any love for the Valiant reboot?

[kimik]

At some point your board members are going to have to accept that they've spent so much money on variants that they could've owned an Amazing Fantasy #15 by now.

 

You are hilarious!

 

 

 

-slym

 

Yes, but his quote is likely true. Valiant fans have long been buying and hoarding variants.That being said, you could apply the same comment to Image collectors over the past couple of years as well.

 

I do not mind, though, as the profits from selling variants is readily recycled into SA/BA/CA keys.

[rjrjr]

At some point your board members are going to have to accept that they've spent so much money on variants that they could've owned an Amazing Fantasy #15 by now.

 

You are hilarious!

 

 

 

-slym

 

Yes, but his quote is likely true. Valiant fans have long been buying and hoarding variants.That being said, you could apply the same comment to Image collectors over the past couple of years as well.

 

I do not mind, though, as the profits from selling variants is readily recycled into SA/BA/CA keys.

 

 

Valiant variants? You must have a good source for them that is pricing them correctly (i.e. low) as most places I see that have new Valiant variants at retail price them way too high. I don't see anyone ever making a profit off the Valiant variants buying them from DCBS, for example. A collector is buying them at those prices because they really, really want those variants. There is nothing wrong with this by the way, I do the same with the Star Wars variants, but I know I'm never, ever going to realize the money I put into them when I go to sell them.

 

Actually, with a few exceptions, I cannot think of too many variants that actually go up in value. Using the Star Wars variants as an example, Star Wars 1 Ross sketch cover use to fetch $125-150 raw. Now, if you can make $60-75 (half of what that variant use to sell for), you are doing good.

[Bosco685]

At some point you are going to have to face the fact that Valiant is spending more money than they are earning. At some point your board members are going to have to accept that they've spent so much money on variants that they could've owned an Amazing Fantasy #15 by now. Some of us are debating whether Dynamite's relaunch of the Gold Key characters will further strip Valiant of sales. My prediction is that sales will start dropping further and Valiant will either start reducing titles or tighten up on the budgets they spend on the art. Although I haven't paid much attention to the paper quality, I've read quite a few complaints about the paper they are using.

 

Do you want to discuss comics or would you like to discuss me some more? Evidently, I'm more interesting than the product Valiant is releasing. This thread was dead for about a month.

 

DG

 

Is the new Valiant doing things I totally agree with? I'm not a big fan of multiple variant covers. Someone must appreciate them, or they wouldn't be offering this.

 

Will Dynamite detract from Valiant sales? I don't know yet. But there are threads concerning how much you can make off your books, or demand for books going up or down. This thread was just about the love of the books - not boosting sales.

 

With the latter, this may be where some are reacting the way they are to your posts. And I do realize you have posted some detailed summaries of your positive feelings about Valiant. But there has been more negative towards Valiant than positive.

 

And that is not to say you shouldn't have the freedom to state your opinion. Just realize how it comes across when it repeatedly goes against the purpose of the thread. I could start a thread concerning "How is the new Valiant doing in attracting new customers" and that is where we could debate better marketing and distribution practices.

 

[Gatsby77]

Give it a rest, dgarthwaite--I've likely been a Valiant fan about as long as you (bought X-O 1 off the shelves and collected a set through about Birthquake).

 

The new Valiant line has been exceedingly well-executed, and I was among the most skeptical.

 

And whatever happened to Jim Shooter et. al. literally 20 years ago is irrelevant.

 

Shooter had not one, but separate attempts at a re-boot (w/ Unity 2000 and Dark Horse) and failed both times, where the new VEI line has not.

 

And with all your predictions that VEI is not financially viable, they've managed to produce six titles that have lasted more than a year (12 issues) each. That's a solid achievement by any standard, and a record that best other failed comics companies like Defiant and CrossGen.

[valiantman]

Do you want to discuss comics or would you like to discuss me some more?

Great idea... let's talk about Valiant comics!

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2014/01/21/harbinger-comic-book-series-death/4716471/

 

 

 

 

[Gatsby77]

It'd be awesome if they killed Kris, rather than Torque.

[valiantman]

Joshua Dysart, writer for Harbinger addressed the multiple cover variant, marketing aspects of Valiant.

 

At the level Valiant is now playing, and with the amount of money they've invested in these properties, they have to do whatever it takes to sell books. Quality and readership loyalty totally sells books. But, sadly, so does multiple covers, crossovers, character deaths and narratives driven by marketing. Right now part of the energy of Harbinger that everyone likes is, in part, because every single arc has to have a marketing hook. I had hoped that at some point the numbers on our book would've gotten to the place where we could've relaxed and just told good stories well and each issue didn't have to be a huge event or built around a news worthy headline. But that's just not the case. Harbinger has received a lot of critical acclaim, but it isn't very strong in sales. So now the mission becomes to take those creative choices that are, unquestionably, designed as marketing hooks and execute them in the best way possible and hope that readers come. But at the end of the day, I just want to be proud of the work, whatever the engine was for the creative decisions. And Valiant may be doing what other publishers have to do to survive, but they've never backed me so far into a corner that I didn't get to work in my own voice, and I am very, very, very proud of what we've done with Harbinger. Regardless of compromises.

[valiantman]

It'd be awesome if they killed Kris, rather than Torque.

 

 

Official Press Release:

 

Anyone can be killed.

 

This April, the critically lauded, best-selling series Harbinger will deliver its most gut-wrenching story yet when a beloved member of Valiant’s band of Renegades pays the ultimate price. Peter. Kris. Zephyr. Flamingo. Torque. Standing head-to-head against Toyo Harada, the superhuman CEO behind the Harbinger Foundation, one of these daring teenage heroes is about to lay their life on the line.

 

...

 

“We’re losing one of our most important characters forever,” said Valiant Executive Editor Warren Simons. “This isn’t a decision we take lightly – there was heated debate about this in all quarters – but it’s a necessary choice, even if it means breaking the hearts of our beloved Harbinger fans.”

 

http://comicbastards.com/valiant-announces-death-of-a-renegade/

[kimik]

At some point your board members are going to have to accept that they've spent so much money on variants that they could've owned an Amazing Fantasy #15 by now.

 

You are hilarious!

 

 

 

-slym

 

Yes, but his quote is likely true. Valiant fans have long been buying and hoarding variants.That being said, you could apply the same comment to Image collectors over the past couple of years as well.

 

I do not mind, though, as the profits from selling variants is readily recycled into SA/BA/CA keys.

 

 

Valiant variants? You must have a good source for them that is pricing them correctly (i.e. low) as most places I see that have new Valiant variants at retail price them way too high. I don't see anyone ever making a profit off the Valiant variants buying them from DCBS, for example. A collector is buying them at those prices because they really, really want those variants. There is nothing wrong with this by the way, I do the same with the Star Wars variants, but I know I'm never, ever going to realize the money I put into them when I go to sell them.

 

Actually, with a few exceptions, I cannot think of too many variants that actually go up in value. Using the Star Wars variants as an example, Star Wars 1 Ross sketch cover use to fetch $125-150 raw. Now, if you can make $60-75 (half of what that variant use to sell for), you are doing good.

 

That is why you buy and flip variants asap.

 

I was picking up the earlier ones for cover at a couple of LCSs that did separate them out as they sat on the racks anyway (most were snagged at 50% off of cover during sales). I will admit I have not bought any for a while now so I do not know if that has changed, but I do not believe so. I will have to check the next time I am there.

 

[Bosco685]

It'd be awesome if they killed Kris, rather than Torque.

 

 

Official Press Release:

 

Anyone can be killed.

 

This April, the critically lauded, best-selling series Harbinger will deliver its most gut-wrenching story yet when a beloved member of Valiant’s band of Renegades pays the ultimate price. Peter. Kris. Zephyr. Flamingo. Torque. Standing head-to-head against Toyo Harada, the superhuman CEO behind the Harbinger Foundation, one of these daring teenage heroes is about to lay their life on the line.

 

...

 

“We’re losing one of our most important characters forever,” said Valiant Executive Editor Warren Simons. “This isn’t a decision we take lightly – there was heated debate about this in all quarters – but it’s a necessary choice, even if it means breaking the hearts of our beloved Harbinger fans.”

 

http://comicbastards.com/valiant-announces-death-of-a-renegade/

 

I like the thought process here. When you are taking on an enemy as powerful as Harada, he is so dangeous to the point there is a high risk someone is going to go down permanently. As much as it may hurt to see a key historic Valiant character killed off, if done right then this is the right path to take. Otherwise, the villains of Valiant will be like so many others without any teeth behind their growl.

 

Growl on, Harada, and make the books that much better!

 

[slym2none]

At some point you are going to have to face the fact that Valiant is spending more money than they are earning. At some point your board members are going to have to accept that they've spent so much money on variants that they could've owned an Amazing Fantasy #15 by now. Some of us are debating whether Dynamite's relaunch of the Gold Key characters will further strip Valiant of sales. My prediction is that sales will start dropping further and Valiant will either start reducing titles or tighten up on the budgets they spend on the art. Although I haven't paid much attention to the paper quality, I've read quite a few complaints about the paper they are using.

 

Do you want to discuss comics or would you like to discuss me some more? Evidently, I'm more interesting than the product Valiant is releasing. This thread was dead for about a month.

 

DG

 

Is the new Valiant doing things I totally agree with? I'm not a big fan of multiple variant covers. Someone must appreciate them, or they wouldn't be offering this.

 

Will Dynamite detract from Valiant sales? I don't know yet. But there are threads concerning how much you can make off your books, or demand for books going up or down. This thread was just about the love of the books - not boosting sales.

 

With the latter, this may be where some are reacting the way they are to your posts. And I do realize you have posted some detailed summaries of your positive feelings about Valiant. But there has been more negative towards Valiant than positive.

 

And that is not to say you shouldn't have the freedom to state your opinion. Just realize how it comes across when it repeatedly goes against the purpose of the thread. I could start a thread concerning "How is the new Valiant doing in attracting new customers" and that is where we could debate better marketing and distribution practices.

 

 

Only people he wants to see him as negative will see the negative in that post, remember.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[VEI Reborn]

It'd be awesome if they killed Kris, rather than Torque.

 

 

I have a feeling it will be Charlene.

 

 

"We tried to look at all the angles, and realize we're walking into a potential firestorm"

[Bosco685]

That's it!

 

After all this "Valiant love" talk, now I have go back and re-read some of my favorite titles again. Maybe I will start with Shadowman.

 

[Buzzetta]

It'd be awesome if they killed Kris, rather than Torque.

 

 

Official Press Release:

 

Anyone can be killed.

 

This April, the critically lauded, best-selling series Harbinger will deliver its most gut-wrenching story yet when a beloved member of Valiant’s band of Renegades pays the ultimate price. Peter. Kris. Zephyr. Flamingo. Torque. Standing head-to-head against Toyo Harada, the superhuman CEO behind the Harbinger Foundation, one of these daring teenage heroes is about to lay their life on the line.

 

...

 

“We’re losing one of our most important characters forever,” said Valiant Executive Editor Warren Simons. “This isn’t a decision we take lightly – there was heated debate about this in all quarters – but it’s a necessary choice, even if it means breaking the hearts of our beloved Harbinger fans.”

 

http://comicbastards.com/valiant-announces-death-of-a-renegade/

 

I like the thought process here. When you are taking on an enemy as powerful as Harada, he is so dangeous to the point there is a high risk someone is going to go down permanently. As much as it may hurt to see a key historic Valiant character killed off, if done right then this is the right path to take. Otherwise, the villains of Valiant will be like so many others without any teeth behind their growl.

 

Growl on, Harada, and make the books that much better!

 

 

I agree -

 

I remember reading GI Joe when they actually killed off some of the Joes in a botched mission in one of he the issues... (112?) and it was at that point that the antagonists suddenly became "real". Up to that point, cobra troops were killed in the the books. B-level characters that never had figures or background characters were killed. In the Joe-verse dead meant dead. Characters had been shot but never killed. It delivered a real message to the fans that anyone, outside of snake eyes was expendable.

 

Side note to any joe fans - yes I know that they revived sneak peak in he the IDW continuation of the marvel series but that was an admitted editorial mistake later ret-conned that his death was staged in order for him to go under deep cover.

[Bosco685]

A villain has to be a real and deadly threat, or else they weaken what otherwise may be a fantastic story.

 

[whetteon]

A villain has to be a real and deadly threat, or else they weaken what otherwise may be a fantastic story.

 

 

[rjrjr]

A quote from the Valiant Comics Fan Group Facebook page concerning the death of a Harbinger story:

 

I'll be honest with you. At the level Valiant is now playing, and with the amount of money they've invested in these properties, they have to do whatever it takes to sell books. Quality and readership loyalty totally sells books. But, sadly, so does multiple covers, crossovers, character deaths and narratives driven by marketing. Right now part of the energy of Harbinger that everyone likes is, in part, because every single arc has to have a marketing hook. I had hoped that at some point the numbers on our book would've gotten to the place where we could've relaxed and just told good stories well and each issue didn't have to be a huge event or built around a news worthy headline. But that's just not the case. Harbinger has received a lot of critical acclaim, but it isn't very strong in sales. So now the mission becomes to take those creative choices that are, unquestionably, designed as marketing hooks and execute them in the best way possible and hope that readers come. But at the end of the day, I just want to be proud of the work, whatever the engine was for the creative decisions. And Valiant may be doing what other publishers have to do to survive, but they've never backed me so far into a corner that I didn't get to work in my own voice, and I am very, very, very proud of what we've done with Harbinger. Regardless of compromises.

[dgarthwaite-migration]

At some point you are going to have to face the fact that Valiant is spending more money than they are earning. At some point your board members are going to have to accept that they've spent so much money on variants that they could've owned an Amazing Fantasy #15 by now. Some of us are debating whether Dynamite's relaunch of the Gold Key characters will further strip Valiant of sales. My prediction is that sales will start dropping further and Valiant will either start reducing titles or tighten up on the budgets they spend on the art. Although I haven't paid much attention to the paper quality, I've read quite a few complaints about the paper they are using.

 

Do you want to discuss comics or would you like to discuss me some more? Evidently, I'm more interesting than the product Valiant is releasing. This thread was dead for about a month.

 

DG

 

Is the new Valiant doing things I totally agree with? I'm not a big fan of multiple variant covers. Someone must appreciate them, or they wouldn't be offering this.

 

Will Dynamite detract from Valiant sales? I don't know yet. But there are threads concerning how much you can make off your books, or demand for books going up or down. This thread was just about the love of the books - not boosting sales.

 

With the latter, this may be where some are reacting the way they are to your posts. And I do realize you have posted some detailed summaries of your positive feelings about Valiant. But there has been more negative towards Valiant than positive.

 

And that is not to say you shouldn't have the freedom to state your opinion. Just realize how it comes across when it repeatedly goes against the purpose of the thread. I could start a thread concerning "How is the new Valiant doing in attracting new customers" and that is where we could debate better marketing and distribution practices.

 

 

I came here to discuss a financial reality that affects sustainability and longevity of the product. The title of this topic ends with a question mark. I have said nothing off topic based upon the chosen punctuation in the title.

 

From your response I gather that this thread was never intended to "discuss" anything, it was instead intended to be an open solicitation for people to post praise about everything Valiant does. Greg has a forum for that.

 

What your post tells me, is that no one cares that Valiant's marketing choices are dooming them to a guaranteed failure, and that the investors will lose the maximum amount of their investment before anyone questions their choices.

 

I watched a video of a CEO say an interesting quote this past week. He said "You better tell the people the truth, because they already know it anyway." He was right.

 

If I saw someone lighting a cigarette too close to a gas pump, I'd say something to the person. I would not yell out "Hey, you smoke a great brand of cigarettes." I would warn the guy of the dangers of having a open flame near gasoline vapors. I guess by the logic of everyone posting in this thread, I should just compliment the guy.

 

My point earlier in the thread is that whitewashing the facts, dishing out unjustified flattering praise, and suppression of the realities of the situation is one of the WORST things you could be doing. If you want Valiant to survive and prosper, you need to be seriously analyzing why all this marketing is NOT working. They have been creative, but when you are fishing out of a barrel and the fish still aren't biting in reasonable numbers, then it might be time to look at what the consumers really want and find out what they really expect.

 

In my occupation, lives are affected by whether I speak up and complain. I don't hesitate to vocalize what I see wrong. For every one person who tries to shoot the messenger, there are a dozen who pay attention and actually listen to what I'm saying. They may not agree 100%, but they know my reasons for saying it are not to sabotage the product.

 

If I were to show non-comic buyers a cover on most modern comics, most potential consumers would not say "Hey, I'd like to see that." The covers don't reach out and pique curiosity. The logos are often flat and blend into the background. The comics move so slowly, that you don't learn how the characters interrelate or why you should even care what happens to them. The product is marketed to people who have already decided they were interested. From that point forward, the best you can achieve is to not annoy the consumer and hope they keep buying it. Excessive variants annoy the consumer. It's insulting to anyone with common sense because it's like dangling a carrot from a stick in front of the horse's face to make him walk. You can definitely get him to walk, but you never get him what he wants. People are smart enough to quit walking and they are smart enough to know who is making a fool out of them over time.

 

I do expect cynicism. If you aren't blaming me of sabotage and the end of the day, you'll be saying I was right.

 

I can point you to a thread on Greg board praising Dinesh. It's the most blatant brown nosing I've seen in my life. When I was a supervisor, the brown nosers annoyed me more than they did when I worked alongside them. I knew they did it for favors and as soon as there was someone with more favors to offer walking by, their loyalty was gone.

 

DG

[Bosco685]

I came here to discuss a financial reality that affects sustainability and longevity of the product. The title of this topic ends with a question mark. I have said nothing off topic based upon the chosen punctuation in the title.

 

I'm not sure a punctuation distinguishes between a thread meant to recognize an appreciation for Valiant Comics and the associated characters and a deep discussion about assumed marketing missteps and company financial challenges. That would seem a stretch.

 

But I can tell there is some deep baggage between you and long-time Valiantfans members. To the point I think it clouds the waters between healthy comic dialogue, and trying to drive home points concerning suggestions that may or may not have been ignored by Valiant.

 

My suggestions were an attempt to get back to fun discussions about the comics. I'll leave it to you all to fight over history and company decisions.

[dgarthwaite-migration]

I came here to discuss a financial reality that affects sustainability and longevity of the product. The title of this topic ends with a question mark. I have said nothing off topic based upon the chosen punctuation in the title.

 

I'm not sure a punctuation distinguishes between a thread meant to recognize an appreciation for Valiant Comics and the associated characters and a deep discussion about assumed marketing missteps and company financial challenges. That would seem a stretch.

 

But I can tell there is some deep baggage between you and long-time Valiantfans members. To the point I think it clouds the waters between healthy comic dialogue, and trying to drive home points concerning suggestions that may or may not have been ignored by Valiant.

 

My suggestions were an attempt to get back to fun discussions about the comics. I'll leave it to you all to fight over history and company decisions.

 

The punctuation selected designates a question. The answer can be yes. The answer can be no. Personally, I'm more interested in how people respond to the question and how they respond to modern comics in general.

 

There is definitely baggage between me and the Valiantfans site.

 

I have endured censorship, threats, blatant lies, stalking my board members, and general misinformation about creators & the hobby.

I would go so far as to say that the valiantfans site has done a bigger disservice to the hobby and fan base than anything I could ever do or say.

I would like to stress that the bulk of the problems come from a select few individuals with the rest acting out of complete ignorance to the facts.

 

I generally talk to people on the level in which they demonstrate that they want to talk. If someone wants to be haughty, I can be more haughty. If someone wants to be nice, I can be extremely nice. If someone wants to be condescending, I can be extremely condescending. I am highly opinionated because opinions are necessary to make decisions. I welcome anyone who can intelligently sway my opinion with facts as opposed to those who seek only to pander to people's emotions through lies and misinformation.

 

I do carry on fun discussions about comics. It's really difficult to do when cliques are more concerned about their agendas and creators are more concerned with a steady paycheck. I not only discuss fun things about comics, but I bring raw information to the hobby to discuss that which hasn't been discussed online prior.

 

I've been compiling a Charlton Checklist for the last few years even though I thought Charlton was inferior when I was a kid. By today's standards Charlton comics are masterpieces which supplied diversity. Their presence on the newsstands gave balance to the market's selection. They broadened the range of consumers that might be exposed to comics. Superheroes endure because they provide hope to overcome obstacles through extraordinary means, but many people see them as childish. Image is catching people's attention with diversity, not quality.

 

Valiant has to persuade people they aren't childish, they have to provide a message of hope to overcome, and they have to persuade people they are not just third tier rip-offs of DC & Marvel characters. They also need to appeal to the largest possible demographics without alienating kids, religious institutions, or any subset of collectors.

 

Marvel & DC are relying on shock stories and gimmicks. There's no reason why anyone couldn't be stealing market share with their content alone.

 

DG