Bigger SA Key: Silver Surfer 1 or Iron Man 1?

[BarryAllen]

I agree, the market is moving in that direction.

 

It will be really interesting to see what happens when all the Baby-boomers completely retire and go into "fixed income mode."

 

Then, because we haven't valued any of the modern books what so ever, I am sure that all the forthcoming generations will really appreciate the uber expensive comics books that they have never seen before. Particularly because they are very hands-on when it comes to their reading material as it is and prefer physical books versus digital.

 

You can rant and rave all you want. If the collector's of today don't find a way to ensure that books from every era have value there won't be a market in 30 years to sell $5,000 comic books, let alone $1,000,000 ones.

 

 

[BarryAllen]

To be clear, my entire point is that I want the comics I value so highly to be worth something someday when I give them to my children.

[ItsJustRyan]

We have had this debate before (another thread)...

 

One school of thought is:

 

"The definition of key is any book that is more sought after that like books of the time."

 

Another school of thought is:

 

"There are many levels of key: highly desirable books, minor keys, mega keys, and elite keys."

 

I'm sure this will continue to be debated for eons, but I consider a 'key' as a first appearance of a significant character and/or a #1 issue of said characters series. Other books are highly desirable IMHO.

 

Let the debate continue

 

I concur, first appearances and number 1's are key issues whether we consider them as major or minor keys.

 

Bottom line: it is good for the future of collecting to include more comics into the spectrum of keys. Books that are more recent (silver, bronze, rare modern, etc.) should be and are included.

 

If all we ever did was include super elite mega stupendous books as "keys," there would be no future for collecting due to price of entry. Very few people can afford a $5,000 comic, let alone one for $1,000,000.

 

Everyone should get the opportunity to feel good about what they are collecting, just my

 

That's absurd. With all the re-numberings and #1's since the mid-80's, I can't wait to see you apply that to Coppers and Moderns.

 

This doesn't have to be applied to coopers and moderns ( but there are cooper and modern keys ). Which would you prefer of the above two schools of thought... only "mega" keys that you would call keys (ie: AF #15, B&B #28, Tec #27) or a tiered systems where you had some elite keys (Action #1), mega keys (AF #15), keys (Hulk #181, ASM #1), and some highly desirable issues (Class of '68)?

 

No collector will ever agree 100% on such a list, but that's the great thing about collecting. My contention is that if you are pursuing a book... it's a key for your collection. I think 'key' is a word that gets thrown around a lot, like love - and in the end it's different for everyone and hard to describe... but you know it when you see it.

[Orange-migration]

We have had this debate before (another thread)...

 

One school of thought is:

 

"The definition of key is any book that is more sought after that like books of the time."

 

Another school of thought is:

 

"There are many levels of key: highly desirable books, minor keys, mega keys, and elite keys."

 

I'm sure this will continue to be debated for eons, but I consider a 'key' as a first appearance of a significant character and/or a #1 issue of said characters series. Other books are highly desirable IMHO.

 

Let the debate continue

 

I concur, first appearances and number 1's are key issues whether we consider them as major or minor keys.

 

Iron Man # 1 is his 62nd (?) appearance. Nothing special about Iron Man # 1 just because of that number. No book is (should be) a key just because it's a #1, there has to be more to it.

 

Bottom line: it is good for the future of collecting to include more comics into the spectrum of keys. Books that are more recent (silver, bronze, rare modern, etc.) should be and are included.

 

So we should lie about certain books just because it might artifically raise their price? No thanks.

 

If all we ever did was include super elite mega stupendous books as "keys," there would be no future for collecting due to price of entry. Very few people can afford a $5,000 comic, let alone one for $1,000,000.

 

Why do people entering the hobby have to start with super mega keys? If they do, they're just speculators like "mintcollector" that we don't need in the hobby (Jay Parrino anyone?). The price of entry into this hobby is the $1 boxes.

[Orange-migration]

To be clear, my entire point is that I want the comics I value so highly to be worth something someday when I give them to my children.

 

[ItsJustRyan]

Orange...

 

So if books like IM #1 are not key, why are they highly sought after?

 

I'm not claiming it is a key, but I would put it in the category of highly desirable books (first issue of first series devoted to the character).

 

My

[BarryAllen]

We have had this debate before (another thread)...

 

One school of thought is:

 

"The definition of key is any book that is more sought after that like books of the time."

 

Another school of thought is:

 

"There are many levels of key: highly desirable books, minor keys, mega keys, and elite keys."

 

I'm sure this will continue to be debated for eons, but I consider a 'key' as a first appearance of a significant character and/or a #1 issue of said characters series. Other books are highly desirable IMHO.

 

Let the debate continue

 

I concur, first appearances and number 1's are key issues whether we consider them as major or minor keys.

 

Iron Man # 1 is his 62nd (?) appearance. Nothing special about Iron Man # 1 just because of that number. No book is (should be) a key just because it's a #1, there has to be more to it.

 

Bottom line: it is good for the future of collecting to include more comics into the spectrum of keys. Books that are more recent (silver, bronze, rare modern, etc.) should be and are included.

 

So we should lie about certain books just because it might artifically raise their price? No thanks.

 

If all we ever did was include super elite mega stupendous books as "keys," there would be no future for collecting due to price of entry. Very few people can afford a $5,000 comic, let alone one for $1,000,000.

 

Why do people entering the hobby have to start with super mega keys? If they do, they're just speculators like "mintcollector" that we don't need in the hobby (Jay Parrino anyone?). The price of entry into this hobby is the $1 boxes.

 

 

You're right, $1 boxes as entry points are going to appeal to anyone 20 years from now when an entire generation of children have never bought a paper book. Everything will be digital. Think the future of comics, not the current environment. If we don't change the way the culture to include a broader audience, we will price everyone out of the market long-term.

 

 

I am ok with your definition of keys, but I don't agree that it is the sole one that counts. That being said, the value of IM 1 is going up and so is the value of SS 1. Neither being a first appearance. The whole point of the discussion is that the description of "key" is and should be subjective.

 

Ultimately any approach to not include books based on a single opinion alone is exactly what is wrong with collecting. It is unnecessary and could be construed as elitist.

[Orange-migration]

Orange...

 

So if books like IM #1 are not key, why are they highly sought after?

 

People are stupid, are completists/have OCD, or are speculators. I am free of all of these character flaws so the obvious is clearer to me.

[oakman29]

Orange...

 

So if books like IM #1 are not key, why are they highly sought after?

 

People are stupid, are completists/have OCD, or are speculators. I am free of all of these character flaws so the obvious is clearer to me.

Wow!

[ItsJustRyan]

Orange...

 

So if books like IM #1 are not key, why are they highly sought after?

 

People are stupid, are completists/have OCD, or are speculators. I am free of all of these character flaws so the obvious is clearer to me.

Wow!

 

Okay, Orange. Your words speak for themselves.

[jimjum12]

My criteria is simple...... if I can't afford it, it's a key..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[bronze johnny]

Whether Iron Man 1 and Silver Surfer 1 are key books is not even a debatable issue. We can discuss however, to what degree they are in terms of their being keys. They are lesser keys relative to books like Hulk 1, FF1, TTA 27, etc.

 

 

[ItsJustRyan]

My criteria is simple...... if I can't afford it, it's a key..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

[Kevin.J]

My criteria is simple...... if I can't afford it, it's a key..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

[jjonahjameson1]

Whether Iron Man 1 and Silver Surfer 1 are key books is not even a debatable issue. We can discuss however, to what degree they are in terms of their being keys. They are lesser keys relative to books like Hulk 1, FF1, TTA 27, etc.

 

 

Very well, I'll bite.

What is your definition of an SA Key?

[ItsJustRyan]

Whether Iron Man 1 and Silver Surfer 1 are key books is not even a debatable issue. We can discuss however, to what degree they are in terms of their being keys. They are lesser keys relative to books like Hulk 1, FF1, TTA 27, etc.

 

 

I agree with this... it sounds like a tiered system would be the way to go, but the books in what tier would be different for each person.

 

Example:

 

Elite Keys

 

AF #15

Tec #27

Action #1

 

Mega Keys

 

ASM #1

Superman #1

Batman #1

Hulk #1

FF #1

ToS #39

 

Keys

 

Showcase #22

Hulk #181

ASM #121/122

 

Minor Keys

 

You name it...

 

Highly Desirable Issues

 

Hulk #340

Wolverine Limited Series #1

 

 

These are just examples that you may or may not agree with as belonging. It's much simpler to go with the first definition, that being that "key" is just a more highly sought after issue for the time period when compared with other issues. For example, Walking Dead keys would be 1, 19, 27, 48, 53, 61, and 92.

 

Next, let's talk about what "art" is from a philosophical standpoint

 

 

[bronze johnny]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

[BarryAllen]

Whether Iron Man 1 and Silver Surfer 1 are key books is not even a debatable issue. We can discuss however, to what degree they are in terms of their being keys. They are lesser keys relative to books like Hulk 1, FF1, TTA 27, etc.

 

 

I agree with this... it sounds like a tiered system would be the way to go, but the books in what tier would be different for each person.

 

Example:

 

Elite Keys

 

AF #15

Tec #27

Action #1

 

Mega Keys

 

ASM #1

Superman #1

Batman #1

Hulk #1

FF #1

ToS #39

 

Keys

 

Showcase #22

Hulk #181

ASM #121/122

 

Minor Keys

 

You name it...

 

Highly Desirable Issues

 

Hulk #340

Wolverine Limited Series #1

 

 

These are just examples that you may or may not agree with as belonging. It's much simpler to go with the first definition, that being that "key" is just a more highly sought after issue for the time period when compared with other issues. For example, Walking Dead keys would be 1, 19, 27, 48, 53, 61, and 92.

 

Next, let's talk about what "art" is from a philosophical standpoint

 

 

Now THAT is what I am talking about!

[BarryAllen]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I agree they are key, not in the same league as an AF15 or even Showcase 22, but key none the less.

 

Iron Man 1 - went on to redefine the character and evolve into the Tony Stark we know today (minus the movie version). It is a key issue because he earned his own title, this is important distinction for any leading protagonist/antagonist.

 

Silver Surfer 1 - same deal as Iron Man, only more significant because of his transformation from anti-hero lackey into hero with a meaningful back-story. As a result he became a major part of the Marvel universe.

 

Pivotal moments define characters and genres. These issues are pivotal moments.

[Jo Seph]

Whether Iron Man 1 and Silver Surfer 1 are key books is not even a debatable issue. We can discuss however, to what degree they are in terms of their being keys. They are lesser keys relative to books like Hulk 1, FF1, TTA 27, etc.

 

 

I agree with this... it sounds like a tiered system would be the way to go, but the books in what tier would be different for each person.

 

Example:

 

Elite Keys

 

AF #15

Tec #27

Action #1

 

Mega Keys

 

ASM #1

Superman #1

Batman #1

Hulk #1

FF #1

ToS #39

 

Keys

 

Showcase #22

Hulk #181

ASM #121/122

 

Minor Keys

 

You name it...

 

Highly Desirable Issues

 

Hulk #340

Wolverine Limited Series #1

 

 

These are just examples that you may or may not agree with as belonging. It's much simpler to go with the first definition, that being that "key" is just a more highly sought after issue for the time period when compared with other issues. For example, Walking Dead keys would be 1, 19, 27, 48, 53, 61, and 92.

 

Next, let's talk about what "art" is from a philosophical standpoint

 

 

JIM #83?