Ditko drawing new Dr. Strange and Spider-Man stories! Details on the OCAL!

[glendgold]

Ditko does as Ditko pleases and he does not owe anyone anything.

 

There was also a similar reason for Kirby, related to the characters. Jack would have not felt to work on the Fantastic Four once again, as he returned to Marvel. They would surely have offered it to him, but he preferred to work on different things.

 

As I recall, the offer circa 1975 was for Jack to go back to the FF, but with someone else scripting it. He didn't like that.

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Here is my personal opinion....

It has been admitted much later that the character in Dark Dominion was loosely based upon Steve Ditko. Although Ditko initially found the concepts for the character agreeable, I think he realized it might be a comic inspired by him as a person and he wasn't flattered. Ditko is strongly rooted in principles and morality. An observer could interpret that to mean that Ditko actually sees the evil in the world. The comic is an extension and representation of that. The demons live in a substratum and sit on people's shoulders. I think Ditko was offended and felt the series may have been mocking him.

 

Thanks Doug, I did not know this. But when does this information surfaced? As far as I recall, when I collected the #0 (made available in cards) and bought the early issues, Shooter did not mention it – he just stated more or less what I said.

Wouldn’t it have been silly to base a character on him, have him as the artist, and not telling him? Especially considered I am pretty sure Jim Shooter pretty much admires him.

Besides this, Michael Alexander, a character I have loved deeply even if briefly, is by no means Ditko-like, neither in his phisionomy nor in his attitude (based on his early "philosophic" work, I mean).

I think it is also not correct to say Michael "sees" evil: those evil instances (and not necessarily evil as a persona) are there, in the substratum, and just represent evil – bu they are there. It is not just Michael (or Mercy) that sees them.

It would have been great to see how they’d have treated Bottom, but we never get to see him/it, as the series were canceled.

 

In my opinion, DD was the best Valiant series (Plasm had groundbreaking and disturbing concepts, but was a bit unreal), but they pretty much ruined everything by forcedly imposing a "universal" crossover, as it has been the fad in the last two decades. Too bad.

 

About Ditko’s philosophical reflections themselves: as a believer I found them enjoyable, and enough artistically transfigurated, in the early Mr. A – much like Ayn Rand’s philosophy shines through the movie of "The Fountainhead", but from what I get of randian philosophy after her death, it pretty much degenerated in an extremization, and I find it a lot poorer than the initial concepts.

 

Various written and audio sources online were referenced for me to acquire my opinion. An employee and friend of Jim Shooter gave me some insights through an email exchange. Ditko is very much driven by principles.

 

 

Here are Jim Shooter's words from his blog:

 

http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/11/ditko-at-valiant-and-defiant-part-3.html

 

One of the first things I did was meet with Steve Ditko. We met several times and had a number of conversations. One of them, the first DEFIANT related conversation, I believe, took place in the McDonald’s in Times Square, near where Steve lives.

 

I wanted to create, with Steve, a character ideally suited for him.

 

He wanted a character who wasn’t bitten by a radioactive anything, or from another planet, or injected with chemicals. Whatever the character could do that was special, if anything, he wanted to be the result of his own efforts, his own thinking. If empowered, empowered in some novel, creative way by his own mind. And why does it always have to be a young guy? Why not an older man? Steve also didn’t want another muscular bodybuilder type. No mansions, no Batmobiles, no costumes. And no “official” super hero name. A real, regular person name—though he allowed that others who didn’t know his name might call the guy by some more dramatic appellation.

 

Obviously, this was a collaboration of ideas and impressions from Jim since he used words like "he allowed".

 

Jim Shooter goes on to say...

I know I’ve told this tale before, but….

 

Halfway through the book, Steve came to the office to see me. He gave me the pages he’d done and said he couldn’t do the rest of the story.

 

“Why not?!’

 

Because, he said, the story and the character were Platonic and he was Aristotelian.

 

“You’re gonna have to explain that to me, Steve.”

 

Simple. Plato believed in the world one can’t see as well as the world one can. Aristotle believed that what you see is what you get. Period. Dark Dominion was Platonic, and therefore, anathema.

 

I argued. You can’t see viruses, I said, but they can make you sick. And what about all the other things invisible and unknown to Aristotle that have since been discovered?

 

He wouldn’t budge.

 

I did get him to agree not to leave me high and dry on #0, after we’d already solicited it, after we’d advertised the fact that he was doing it.

 

He reluctantly agreed to finish the book.

 

Steve didn’t do any more work for DEFIANT after that. Not because there were any hard feelings either way, mind you. He had plenty of offers around that time and we didn’t really have much that interested him.

 

We remained, and remain friends.

 

I've heard more background on this than Jim explains. Regardless, it gives you a snapshot of how Ditko feels about certain things.

 

DG

[dgarthwaite-migration]

There are rumors that Marvel (not Stan Lee) had been promising Jack & Steve a bigger stake in what Marvel was making off of the characters they helped create. I've heard it said that both realized that the promises were not going to be kept at some point and it created a resentment from both. From what I've read from and about Steve, it seems like a very plausible reason for him to leave. Mark Evanier said that many years later, Jack was infuriated that Marvel was making money off the superhero toys for his characters and he was getting nothing. Jack didn't even want to look at them.

 

DG

[vaillant]

Thanks Doug,

this pretty much explains what Shooter already implied in his short explanation from the early DD issues. And comes as no surprise, I guessed it even before reading that.

But Ditko is excessively rigid on that: I admit that I share part of his concern, as this was precisely the aspect I found more problematic with Dark Dominion, but if you oppose Plato and Aristotle, there is a root misunderstanding here.

 

However, no matter what they could have explained you, I still can’t see how you can conceive a character inspired by Ditko and not tell him, especially if they started to collaborate on it early on – sounds silly.

 

Nonetheless he did a breathtaking job: Dark Dominion #0 is one of the comics which moved me more of the early 1990s.

[dgarthwaite-migration]

However, no matter what they could have explained you, I still can’t see how you can conceive a character inspired by Ditko and not tell him, especially if they started to collaborate on it early on – sounds silly.

 

Jim historically has always wanted a comics legend working for his companies. A name with clout. He had BWS & Steve Ditko at Valiant. He had Steve Ditko (briefly), Len Wein & Dave Cockrum at DEFIANT. He tried to get Curt Swan to draw Star Seed at Broadway. Curt Swan pages are supposed to be out there somewhere.

 

I don't think anyone intentionally set out to model the Michael Alexander character after Steve Ditko. I think that as Jim and Steve discussed the character and ruled out what Steve didn't want to do, that Jim started aligning the character with Steve's beliefs and the pitch worked. The character being an older intellectual man that seemed normal and wanted to do what is right eventually aligned with who Steve was. From there it's not a huge leap to take it a step closer to who Steve is by having the character see evils that no one else sees. I believe it was just an honest attempt to persuade Steve to work for the company.

 

DG

[suspense39]

I wonder if most of that "pile" is marvel dr. Strange art. There certainly doesn't appear to be a lot out there floating around. Either way I'm happy if it exists.

[vaillant]

Jim historically has always wanted a comics legend working for his companies. A name with clout. He had BWS & Steve Ditko at Valiant. He had Steve Ditko (briefly), Len Wein & Dave Cockrum at DEFIANT. He tried to get Curt Swan to draw Star Seed at Broadway. Curt Swan pages are supposed to be out there somewhere.

 

I don't think anyone intentionally set out to model the Michael Alexander character after Steve Ditko. I think that as Jim and Steve discussed the character and ruled out what Steve didn't want to do, that Jim started aligning the character with Steve's beliefs and the pitch worked. The character being an older intellectual man that seemed normal and wanted to do what is right eventually aligned with who Steve was. From there it's not a huge leap to take it a step closer to who Steve is by having the character see evils that no one else sees. I believe it was just an honest attempt to persuade Steve to work for the company.

 

Well, this honors Shooter. And if it happened that way, say, naturally, I can’t see why Ditko should feel uneasy about it. More reasonable the basic explanation we figured out, deeply rooted in his beliefs and philosophy.

 

I still think however that Michael Alexander hwasn’t so Ditko, except the points we have seen. And you’re right: that was what I loved about the character: that he was an aging character questioning himself with mystery and meaning. A similar thing that I thoroughly enjoyed in Kazumasa Takayama’s master work "Kisotengaku" (I think it is unpublished in english) – although the main character here has… little surprises up his sleeve…

 

[Koa]

What a great "what if" scenario ! What really drives me mad is that these things shouldn't be what if! Why aren't Marvel and DC aren't doing everything in their power to publish new work by Ditko and other legends at this stage. Stan lee is 90 and still active, he should be working on the character he helped give life to in some way. There should be a special projects line that just let's guys like Ditko, Stan lee ,Romita Sr produce work without worrying about BS continuity. Just publish their work darn it!

 

For the same reason that Morrissey and Johnny Marr turned down $5,000,000 to go on tour as Morrissey and Marr (Without Rourke and Joyce as the Smiths)....

 

They just did not want to do it and felt as artists that they were above it.

 

Ditko does as Ditko pleases and he does not owe anyone anything.

 

I didn't say Ditko owed anyone. I said I wish MARVEL and DC had a special projects division where legends like Ditko could work, unencumbered on the characters or with the companies they gave life to or helped build.

 

Marvel should have an open door for ICONS like Ditko, Stan lee and many others. These guys are older now, we'll be losing the opportunity to see work by them one day. Yes, maybe steve wouldn't publish with them or maybe he would. The opportunity should be there is all i'm saying.

 

 

[Koa]

Well said! Yeah, Disney should open a special projects division that pays tribute to those creators that built Marvel and nurtures them without editorial interference.

 

Why not?

 

I know why not, but still.

 

Thanks Glen. Maybe steve would never allow them to publish his stories, but the sad part is that the publishers don't even want too, that's the tragedy. For all the flack people give the early 1990's at least the majority of the fanbase recognized the artists who made the comics they loved at the time and forced the publishers to acknowledge them as well, for a little while.

[Speedy-D]

I'm sure if Steve Ditko came to Marvel and said he had some new work he wanted them to look at, they'd find time for him.

[Koa]

I'm sure if Steve Ditko came to Marvel and said he had some new work he wanted them to look at, they'd find time for him.

 

That didn't go to well for Barry Windsor smith.

[Speedy-D]

I'm sure if Steve Ditko came to Marvel and said he had some new work he wanted them to look at, they'd find time for him.

 

That didn't go to well for Barry Windsor smith.

What happened?

[vaillant]

I'm sure if Steve Ditko came to Marvel and said he had some new work he wanted them to look at, they'd find time for him.

 

Maybe, but if you read his whole works… well I think he stopped proposing work to publishers since the early Mr. A stories… In most cases he went independent, or was some independent publisher which hired him, as it happened with "The Safest Place" (for Dark Horse) or the Substance series and the stuff published by Fantagraphics.

[Koa]

I'm sure if Steve Ditko came to Marvel and said he had some new work he wanted them to look at, they'd find time for him.

 

That didn't go to well for Barry Windsor smith.

What happened?

If i remember right Joe Quesada rejected his FF GN without even looking at it in 2006. They did ask him for unpublished pages from weapon X for a definitive version of that book, for free while ignoring his request to adjust color levels on collected editions of weapon X.

 

Not the end of the world, but being a popular artist who contributed iconic work to the company does not get you in the door.

[Speedy-D]

I'm sure if Steve Ditko came to Marvel and said he had some new work he wanted them to look at, they'd find time for him.

 

That didn't go to well for Barry Windsor smith.

What happened?

If i remember right Joe Quesada rejected his FF GN without even looking at it in 2006. They did ask him for unpublished pages from weapon X for a definitive version of that book, for free while ignoring his request to adjust color levels on collected editions of weapon X.

 

Not the end of the world, but being a popular artist who contributed iconic work to the company does not get you in the door.

Well, I still think they'd find time for Ditko. Depending on the work, they might not publish it, but they'd take the meeting.

[vaillant]

Well, I still think they'd find time for Ditko. Depending on the work, they might not publish it, but they'd take the meeting.

 

I agree. It is more bound that Ditko is uninterested rather than Marvel refusing to consider his work, and I also think this goes for various artists and writers which had unpleasant experiences.

[Speedy-D]

Well, I still think they'd find time for Ditko. Depending on the work, they might not publish it, but they'd take the meeting.

 

I agree. It is more bound that Ditko is uninterested rather than Marvel refusing to consider his work, and I also think this goes for various artists and writers which had unpleasant experiences.

Exactly. I was saying this in response to the lament that Marvel doesn't have an "Old-Timers" line ... that it's just as likely if not more so that the creators don't want to do it.

[Prince Namor]

I'm sure if Steve Ditko came to Marvel and said he had some new work he wanted them to look at, they'd find time for him.

 

That didn't go to well for Barry Windsor smith.

What happened?

If i remember right Joe Quesada rejected his FF GN without even looking at it in 2006. They did ask him for unpublished pages from weapon X for a definitive version of that book, for free while ignoring his request to adjust color levels on collected editions of weapon X.

 

Not the end of the world, but being a popular artist who contributed iconic work to the company does not get you in the door.

Well, I still think they'd find time for Ditko. Depending on the work, they might not publish it, but they'd take the meeting.

 

There are still a handful of quality artists out there that Marvel and DC either A) wont give the time of day to or B) if they did, wouldn't make it past one issue because of the editorial constraints put on artists these days.

And if you've been a 'troublemaker' in the past, and have made Marvel look bad? Forget about it. I would be shocked and amazed, not only if Marvel initiated it, but if the artist's agreed to it, if Ditko, BWS, Jim Starlin, ever worked for Marvel again.

 

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Ditko doesn't care about the money or conforming to anyone's expectations. I doubt you'll ever see Marvel publish anything new by him again.

 

BWS is all about the quality of the product. He'll take issue with reproduction quality and stuff like that. I could see him working there under new management.

 

Starlin? No idea. Seems like the old school talent should pool together and work with IDW or somebody.

 

DG

[glenbru]

Why did Ditko take assignment work from Marvel in the late 80's like Speedball and Machine Man if he wasn't willing to conform to editorial expectations? Or is he just over it at this point?

 

GB