Gerry Conway Is Requesting Help For All Creators

[Ares]

I can't stand Gerry Conway. He killed Gwen Stacy.

 

Best thing he ever did! Everyone knows Redheads are more fun.

 

You can sleep with a blonde and a brunette.....But you never get any sleep with a redhead

 

Is that a bad thing?

 

Oh Hell No...

 

 

You go to bed with a red head.... Just never get any sleep

[shadroch]

Wow, I'm shocked at how many on a message board about collecting comics, really don't get it.

 

Go collect your comics, search for references and appearances that will make you a little extra on eBay. Try not to think about how many of the people responsible for those books can't make their rent, afford medication, or afford food. Don't think about how many died unknown and penniless. This is a way for you to give back a little bit, but please, don't go to any real effort. I'm sure someone else will do it.

 

I'm sure when Jerry Siegel was living in a one room roach infested apartment in the mid-70's, practically penniless, there were some fans who shrugged and said, "Oh well."

Sad. People who grew up reading stories of heroic behavior, not only don't have the same compassion for other people as their heroes, they don't even have it for the people who CREATED those heroes.

 

I'm much too busy drowning kittens and feeding rat poison to the neighborhood kids to worry about stuff like this.

[MedicAR]

Some of the same people who complain about how lame modern Marvel and DC comics are, also think work for hire contracts of the past (in an industry of creativity) are just fine and 'they should've known what they were signing'.

It's directly related.

Once creators realized that any ideas they produced for the Big Two under these terms, they'd see no further financial benefit from, the new characters, new villains, and new ideas started to dry up. The 'House of Ideas' became the 'House of rehashing Old Ideas'.

DC paved the way for changing this, no matter what BS Jim Shooter tries to annotate history with, but the amount of merchandising is just so vast, that it'd be impossible to keep up with.

He's just asking for fans who appreciate the work of these creators to help... Not go out and do a bunch of research or go out of their way... But just if they notice something, to drop an e-mail and point it out.

 

See I wonder about all this though. Didn't they know what they were getting in to when they created their work? Don't creators now know what they are getting in to when they create characters. It is and comes with the job.

 

I'm amazed at how many collectors use the "they should have known better" defense. If you go back to Siegel and Shuster, there was no way they could have known what was coming. No way to even suspect that their character would go on to make billions of dollars. Jump forward to the 60s. Marvel was on life support when Fantastic Four and Spider-Man were introduced. Even looking at DC as an example of what might be possible, there was no way to guess what it might grow into. Legally, the companies are off the hook. They got what they paid for, just like fans did when they bought the books off the stand. Morally, even a 5 year old can see that they owe these people something. I'm not saying they should make them rich or buy them their own island. But they shouldn't have to hope that the HERO Initiative helps them out either. That's all this is, a request for help so that the people that created something we enjoy can live without having to worry.

 

And to blame the Big Two for the loss of creativity again makes me scratch my head. If people didn't have enough integrity to do their job because they didn't feel like they were getting paid than that is on them. They should have gone and created their own company Blaming your boss for not paying you well enough is just an immature attitude.

 

Look at where the real creativity is now. What are the most innovative and best quality comics on the stands now? Sixth Gun (Oni), Mind MGMT (Dark Horse), Walking Dead (Image), Thief of Thieves (Image) all have a few things in common, the most obvious is that they didn't come from the big two. They are all creator owned properties, too. What is Marvel's latest opus? "Age of Ultron"? Look at what "Age of Ultron" is, it's an old character (created by Roy Thomas and John Buscema) fighting old heroes. When all the dust settles, what has changed? Will fans look at it five years from now and talk about how it changed the Marvel U and in turn, the hobby? Will it be collected in format after format? Is it the next "Dark Knight Returns"?

 

The integrity has been there for a very long time, look at Neal Adams. He crusaded for creator rights in the late 60s and early 70s. Most creators didn't join him for fear that they would never work again. The 80s came along and the indy craze blew up, what do we have from that era now? TMNT is still here, Cerebus completed what Dave Sim said it would, but most creators didn't have the money or the business skill to make a good run at the industry. Creativity and business acumen are a rare paring. Finally the 90s came along and Image was born. The superstars from the big two had finally been paid enough to do the very thing you are suggesting. The started their own company. They allowed creators to retain the rights to their creations and had a foothold in the printing and distribution of those creations so they could get wide distribution and advertising.

 

Comics have long been a art form, and the business model of the publishers plays a huge roll in that image. Without a doubt, publishers took the risk of printing and distributing new material and deserve to make a good profit. At the same time, shouldn't they share the profits with the creators that made them possible? Legally, no. Morally and ethically, yes. Unfortunately, we live in a society where legality is the primary consideration behind everything.

 

 

Now I respect Gerry Conway and what he did for comics - Spider-Man especially. If I stumbled upon one of these moments I'd help him out. But the truth is that he should do the work himself or have kept better records back then. If I was getting paid with the possibility that my characters would make tons of money I'd keep a pretty good record of the characters I created.

 

That's just it. LIke Siegel and Shuster, no one ever imagined that these creations would make money, much less jump to other formats. I don't read his request as wanting anyone to spend their nights and weekends scouring books so he or other creators can make money. I see it as a request for you to let them know if you should see a character that you recognize as being from comics in another format. I don't keep up with new books like I used to despite still being a collector, so it's no surprise to me that the creators may miss seeing their characters in trading cards, movies, games, or TV shows.

 

I prefer to think of it as an Amber Alert for characters. Not in the sense that they are actually missing, but by putting this in front of as many fans as possible, the likelihood that these creators will get what they are entitled to increases exponentially. If you don't want to help, that's fine. I like to help out people that have done things for me, like providing years or entertainment. If I can cost a giant corporation a little (minuscule, really) money in the process, so much the better.

 

 

[vaillant]

But the truth is that he should do the work himself or have kept better records back then. If I was getting paid with the possibility that my characters would make tons of money I'd keep a pretty good record of the characters I created.

 

Well, maybe it’s just because we aren’t of his generation. Can you precisely figure how "metodic" work could have been in the 1970s? Authors were happy do work on their comics, and the (reasonable) worry of possible future income surely comes a bit later.

[vaillant]

And to blame the Big Two for the loss of creativity again makes me scratch my head. If people didn't have enough integrity to do their job because they didn't feel like they were getting paid than that is on them. They should have gone and created their own company Blaming your boss for not paying you well enough is just an immature attitude.

 

Are you kidding, Chris?

Do you really think "going and create your own company" was a thing you could actually do as easily as McFarlane and Rob Liefeld, covered in money, did in the 1990s? How old are you, if I may ask? It‘s such an unthinkable statement!

[ChrisInBaltimore]

And to blame the Big Two for the loss of creativity again makes me scratch my head. If people didn't have enough integrity to do their job because they didn't feel like they were getting paid than that is on them. They should have gone and created their own company Blaming your boss for not paying you well enough is just an immature attitude.

 

Are you kidding, Chris?

Do you really think "going and create your own company" was a thing you could actually do as easily as McFarlane and Rob Liefeld, covered in money, did in the 1990s? How old are you, if I may ask? It‘s such an unthinkable statement!

 

You think, in the 70s, that if Gerry Conway and let's say John Romita Sr, had gone off to create their own company it would have been that difficult? I can't imagine it would have been impossible.

 

And I'm 28. I understand how impossible it is to start your own business. After I started a business proposal for my own restaurant and realized what it'd take I decided to stay in school.

 

But some of the creators were so well established they could have had a following. Conway was a well established creator by the time he was working for DC.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Some of the same people who complain about how lame modern Marvel and DC comics are, also think work for hire contracts of the past (in an industry of creativity) are just fine and 'they should've known what they were signing'.

It's directly related.

Once creators realized that any ideas they produced for the Big Two under these terms, they'd see no further financial benefit from, the new characters, new villains, and new ideas started to dry up. The 'House of Ideas' became the 'House of rehashing Old Ideas'.

DC paved the way for changing this, no matter what BS Jim Shooter tries to annotate history with, but the amount of merchandising is just so vast, that it'd be impossible to keep up with.

He's just asking for fans who appreciate the work of these creators to help... Not go out and do a bunch of research or go out of their way... But just if they notice something, to drop an e-mail and point it out.

 

See I wonder about all this though. Didn't they know what they were getting in to when they created their work? Don't creators now know what they are getting in to when they create characters. It is and comes with the job.

 

I'm amazed at how many collectors use the "they should have known better" defense. If you go back to Siegel and Shuster, there was no way they could have known what was coming. No way to even suspect that their character would go on to make billions of dollars. Jump forward to the 60s. Marvel was on life support when Fantastic Four and Spider-Man were introduced. Even looking at DC as an example of what might be possible, there was no way to guess what it might grow into. Legally, the companies are off the hook. They got what they paid for, just like fans did when they bought the books off the stand. Morally, even a 5 year old can see that they owe these people something. I'm not saying they should make them rich or buy them their own island. But they shouldn't have to hope that the HERO Initiative helps them out either. That's all this is, a request for help so that the people that created something we enjoy can live without having to worry.

 

I feel like after a few creators got screwed, like Siegel and Shuster, someone like Conway had to have known what he was doing. I also imagine they signed a contract somewhere down the line.

 

And let's not kid ourselves, the creators made a living off this stuff for years. It sucks there was no pension and it is why I support the Heroes Initiative. It's also why I've never complained about paying for a signature at a con.

 

But at the end of the day they signed a contract somewhere. I used to live in Wyoming and a ton of people retire out there. My aunt was friends with a women who was part of the team that created the saying, "The other white meat." Now I'm not sure how big a part she had in the creation of the saying, but she isn't credited with it. The company was. However, she made a good living and has now retired to a pretty nice house in Wyoming because she was good at her job. That is the reality of working in an industry like that.

 

I'm not trying to take away what these creators did though. Conway did an incredible job on a lot of books I read. I'm simply expressing some ideas on the issues.

[revat]

I think its a reasonable request by Conway, and reasonable for people to want to help, some more zealously than others.

 

But I also think that if you don't feel as strongly about helping, its not a very big deal either.

 

There are millions of people with a million times more need and less opportunity in the world who need a lot more than some talented people who were at one point PAID to create pages with words and pictures of flying men on them. They weren't killing themselves in the mines for pennies, or putting their lives on the line to fight crime or defending their countries (although some of them may have had those occupations as well), they CHOSE to be artists, a historically low income and underappreciated profession. And there is nothing wrong with that, I believe that there is a lot of true genius and beauty in art.

 

There are and were a million starving hard working artists out there, many who die or give up there dreams because while they have the passion, they lack the talent (or in some cases dumb luck) to achieve greatness (or even mediocreness). Do they deserve more or less of your sympathy? Howabout the young artist/writer mother who would create the next Superman but her husband died in war and she's got 2 young kids.

 

We can turn our nose up at Marvel or DC, but what would you do if you were on the board of directors or the CEO? Who do you answer to? Who is your duty to? People you used to employ (many of them as contractors)? Or people you employ now and your shareholders and your family?

 

 

How much should a person make in profit before they feel obligated to share the rewards? If I hire you to design and build me a house, then pay you after you're done, and I sell it for 5X, 10x, 100x more than I originally thought I would because it was built and designed so well by you, do I owe you more money? What if your wife divorced you and you lost all your money in an investment gone bad? Should I pay you more? What if the market tanked right after you finished? Can I ask you for a discount? No. I fronted the money, the risk is mine. Just because the unforeseeable profits were so astronomical, does it change the basic principle of doing business? What if I made a zillion dollars on the house but then my kid got some incurable disease and I spent a zillion dollars trying to cure him? Should I pay you the extra money above what we AGREED upon?

 

I'm saying its tough to impose a person's own 'morals' on another person, even tougher on a corporation, especially in a business setting. People should try to help the people they feel led to help. But they should also realize that there are many good and 'moral' people (and some jerks) out there who might not feel led in the same way to help in a specific situation (and have well reasoned arguments against it, even if not thoughtfully presented).

[jjonahjameson1]

And to blame the Big Two for the loss of creativity again makes me scratch my head. If people didn't have enough integrity to do their job because they didn't feel like they were getting paid than that is on them. They should have gone and created their own company Blaming your boss for not paying you well enough is just an immature attitude.

 

Are you kidding, Chris?

Do you really think "going and create your own company" was a thing you could actually do as easily as McFarlane and Rob Liefeld, covered in money, did in the 1990s? How old are you, if I may ask? It‘s such an unthinkable statement!

 

You think, in the 70s, that if Gerry Conway and let's say John Romita Sr, had gone off to create their own company it would have been that difficult? I can't imagine it would have been impossible.

And I'm 28. I understand how impossible it is to start your own business. After I started a business proposal for my own restaurant and realized what it'd take I decided to stay in school.

 

But some of the creators were so well established they could have had a following. Conway was a well established creator by the time he was working for DC.

 

Atlas re-launch in the mid-70's = flop. Charlton died (revived briefly in the early 80's). Harvey Comics died. So which Comics Company was a successful start-up in the 1970s (other than Dave Sims')?

[DeadpoolJr.]

I think its a reasonable request by Conway, and reasonable for people to want to help, some more zealously than others.

 

But I also think that if you don't feel as strongly about helping, its not a very big deal either.

 

There are millions of people with a million times more need and less opportunity in the world who need a lot more than some talented people who were at one point PAID to create pages with words and pictures of flying men on them. They weren't killing themselves in the mines for pennies, or putting their lives on the line to fight crime or defending their countries (although some of them may have had those occupations as well), they CHOSE to be artists, a historically low income and underappreciated profession. And there is nothing wrong with that, I believe that there is a lot of true genius and beauty in art.

 

There are and were a million starving hard working artists out there, many who die or give up there dreams because while they have the passion, they lack the talent (or in some cases dumb luck) to achieve greatness (or even mediocreness). Do they deserve more or less of your sympathy? Howabout the young artist/writer mother who would create the next Superman but her husband died in war and she's got 2 young kids.

 

We can turn our nose up at Marvel or DC, but what would you do if you were on the board of directors or the CEO? Who do you answer to? Who is your duty to? People you used to employ (many of them as contractors)? Or people you employ now and your shareholders and your family?

 

 

How much should a person make in profit before they feel obligated to share the rewards? If I hire you to design and build me a house, then pay you after you're done, and I sell it for 5X, 10x, 100x more than I originally thought I would because it was built and designed so well by you, do I owe you more money? What if your wife divorced you and you lost all your money in an investment gone bad? Should I pay you more? What if the market tanked right after you finished? Can I ask you for a discount? No. I fronted the money, the risk is mine. Just because the unforeseeable profits were so astronomical, does it change the basic principle of doing business? What if I made a zillion dollars on the house but then my kid got some incurable disease and I spent a zillion dollars trying to cure him? Should I pay you the extra money above what we AGREED upon?

 

I'm saying its tough to impose a person's own 'morals' on another person, even tougher on a corporation, especially in a business setting. People should try to help the people they feel led to help. But they should also realize that there are many good and 'moral' people (and some jerks) out there who might not feel led in the same way to help in a specific situation (and have well reasoned arguments against it, even if not thoughtfully presented).

well said.

[Buzzetta]

Wow, I'm shocked at how many on a message board about collecting comics, really don't get it.

 

Go collect your comics, search for references and appearances that will make you a little extra on eBay. Try not to think about how many of the people responsible for those books can't make their rent, afford medication, or afford food. Don't think about how many died unknown and penniless. This is a way for you to give back a little bit, but please, don't go to any real effort. I'm sure someone else will do it.

 

I'm sure when Jerry Siegel was living in a one room roach infested apartment in the mid-70's, practically penniless, there were some fans who shrugged and said, "Oh well."

Sad. People who grew up reading stories of heroic behavior, not only don't have the same compassion for other people as their heroes, they don't even have it for the people who CREATED those heroes.

 

I'm much too busy drowning kittens and feeding rat poison to the neighborhood kids to worry about stuff like this.

 

That was you?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/birth_of_ween_legend_cp7nItVVtwzB4NQjJlhw3J

[shadroch]

And to blame the Big Two for the loss of creativity again makes me scratch my head. If people didn't have enough integrity to do their job because they didn't feel like they were getting paid than that is on them. They should have gone and created their own company Blaming your boss for not paying you well enough is just an immature attitude.

 

Are you kidding, Chris?

Do you really think "going and create your own company" was a thing you could actually do as easily as McFarlane and Rob Liefeld, covered in money, did in the 1990s? How old are you, if I may ask? It‘s such an unthinkable statement!

 

You think, in the 70s, that if Gerry Conway and let's say John Romita Sr, had gone off to create their own company it would have been that difficult? I can't imagine it would have been impossible.

And I'm 28. I understand how impossible it is to start your own business. After I started a business proposal for my own restaurant and realized what it'd take I decided to stay in school.

 

But some of the creators were so well established they could have had a following. Conway was a well established creator by the time he was working for DC.

 

Atlas re-launch in the mid-70's = flop. Charlton died (revived briefly in the early 80's). Harvey Comics died. So which Comics Company was a successful start-up in the 1970s (other than Dave Sims')?

 

 

Elfquest, and First Kingdom come to mind. Will Eisner did his own thing, as well.

Could it have been done? Yes. Would it have worked? Most likely, no.

 

I just don't understand why it is hard for a creator to track this stuff himself. If there was a chance that something I created would put money in my pocket if it was used on one of a couple shows, I'd tape the shows and speed thru them at 4X speed.

It would be different if the widow of a creator who may not know every character her husband created asked for help, but this just rubs me as being lazy.

 

[Prince Namor]

Yeah, I can just see a 92 year old Nick Cardy getting up everyday and spending hours fast forwarding through programs on the WB to see if he can eek out an extra check from DC. Don't enjoy time with your family and grand kids Nick, get your butt up everyday and scour Direct TV and see if you can find a way to supplement your income from what little social security pays.

 

After all, building a house isn't any different than working in a creative art form, other than you got paid infinitely less, had no rights as an employee other than take it or leave it, and the company you worked for can continue to make money from your work even today.

 

You fought in the war for your country and all of that, but hey, business is business buddy. It's the American way.

 

The fans of this hobby get exactly what they deserve today.

[Prince Namor]

One of the key points Gerry made is that DC doesn't pay 'retroactively'.

So someone who is a fan of 'Arrow', may see something, and immediately know (as comic fans can), so sending an e-mail to the creator to help out.

Not that big of a deal.

[shadroch]

Yes, because there are hundreds of hours of such shows each week, right? Why ask your grandchildren to something for you when you can get a stranger.

 

I'm curious, where was Conway in the fight to get Simon and Shuster compensation, or even in the battle for the return of Jacks art work? I certainly don't remember him being in the forefront of the fighs.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Yes, because there are hundreds of hours of such shows each week, right? Why ask your grandchildren to something for you when you can get a stranger.

 

I'm curious, where was Conway in the fight to get Simon and Shuster compensation, or even in the battle for the return of Jacks art work? I certainly don't remember him being in the forefront of the fighs.

 

Conway is pretty young. I believe he was writing Spider-Man when he was like 17. He's probably one of the youngest Silver Age creators that worked for the big two.

 

He is probably becoming all to aware of what it is like after the glory is going although I'd gladly buy a Conway book if wrote something. When was the last time he wrote a comic?

[Prince Namor]

Yes, because there are hundreds of hours of such shows each week, right? Why ask your grandchildren to something for you when you can get a stranger.

 

There are many hours of shows. Lots of comic books. Lots of toys.

He's just asking for an e-mail if somebody notices something. Not a lot of work. Just an e-mail if somebody notices.

 

I'm curious, where was Conway in the fight to get Simon and Shuster compensation, or even in the battle for the return of Jacks art work? I certainly don't remember him being in the forefront of the fighs.

 

Don't know. He didn't turn 30 until the early 80's, so I imagine he was working to try and earn a living. Not sure what that has to do with this, as he isn't battling anybody and actually makes a point of saying how great DC is for the specific program in place... He's just asking for an e-mail if somebody notices something. Not a lot of work. Just an e-mail if somebody notices.

[revat]

Not sure this is a huge thing to get fired up about on either side.

 

If you want to help out, do it. If not, don't.

 

Just because you land on one side or another doesn't determine whether or not you are an a-hole.

 

 

 

[vaillant]

You think, in the 70s, that if Gerry Conway and let's say John Romita Sr, had gone off to create their own company it would have been that difficult? I can't imagine it would have been impossible.

 

And I'm 28. I understand how impossible it is to start your own business. After I started a business proposal for my own restaurant and realized what it'd take I decided to stay in school.

 

But some of the creators were so well established they could have had a following. Conway was a well established creator by the time he was working for DC.

 

Chris, with all the due respect, I think there is a big difference in perception if you have grown up in a certain decade (halfway between the 1970s and the 1980s for me) and another. I did not mean they could not have possibly do so, but it wasn’t a thing you would have started overnight. It doesn’t take just good will, as you see, and sometimes you think it is just fair to get some financial return if something grows bigger, you just don’t think much about the future.

I am just not sure how you could be so sure of your statement, given Conway could be your father, and you don’t know much about him (if not for his poignant stories, especially the earlier ones). BTW, he was born in 1952, so he was 21 when he wrote the Gwen stories.

[vaillant]

There are millions of people with a million times more need and less opportunity in the world who need a lot more than some talented people who were at one point PAID to create pages with words and pictures of flying men on them. They weren't killing themselves in the mines for pennies, or putting their lives on the line to fight crime or defending their countries (although some of them may have had those occupations as well), they CHOSE to be artists, a historically low income and underappreciated profession. And there is nothing wrong with that, I believe that there is a lot of true genius and beauty in art.

 

Revat, again – this is one of those generalizations, which more than often ends up being commonplaces. Speaking so in general is never good, as it does not allow you to consider each and every person’s situation. If you reed the Kirby biography by Evanier you will see how much complex is that.

I am not comparing Jack to a homeless hobo, or a miner, and Conway did not land on the beach of Normandy after the D-Day, and risked to loose the use of his legs as he did. Conway did not even had the eye illness Jack Kirby suffered from, but again – what do we know about Conway unless we are his friends and/or acquaintances?