When did pressing a comic before every sub become the norm?

[revat]

You're the very last person in the entire forum I'll believe cares nothing about the money at all there, Gordon Gekko.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I care plenty about money. It just doesn't play any role whatsoever regarding whether I approve of pressing or not.

 

In any case, Pandora's Box was opened long ago, so I think people have to either live with the current status quo or find themselves a new hobby. There's no going back at this point, unfortunately.

 

That's how I feel. Think of it in sports.

 

There's all kinds of banned steroids and PED's that CAN be tested for. AND all kinds of LEGAL supplements that athletes can take. Yes, there are many who long for the days of yore when athletes could chain smoke and play drunk like Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth, but we live in a age where Kobe Bryant is injecting Cambodian breast milk into his knees in Germany every year (allegedly). Now you can't test for the Cambodian breast milk (it seems mostly natural) conclusively. What if other players start injecting Cambodian breast milk into their knees. Yes we've lost the wonder of thinking Wilt Chamberlain had relations with 19 different women before a game, but we can enjoy Kobe and his Cambodian breast milk knees for at a higher level. Yes some of the magic is gone of players just waking up and getting triple doubles like Ice Cube, but if you look at it directly, he was a JOY to watch last year (and I don't even like the Lakers or Kobe).

 

So you can sit around debating the merits of a Cambodian breast milk supplement that you CAN'T test for which appears to have no real side affects (but appears safe, although we can't say for sure in the long term), other than making your knees work a little better (doesn't work on any other part of the body), or you can enjoy the game of basketball, which you love and have loved for a long time.

 

But if your love of basketball or sports is based on the fact that these people are 'super' men, that they just eat a lot of eggs and veggies and drink a lot of milk and magically become super athletes and play just for the love of the game, then you're not going to enjoy sports nearly as much. It's a lot of science, and a LOT of money.

[VintageComics]

I know that many people have this image of people or dealers who press books as secretly profiting at the expense of the poor innocent, but that's just a convenient way to portray it that doesn't take the actual person into the equation.

 

I had an indecent where I sold a book and that book got upgraded after I sold it. The book and amount? No that important. Let's say that it wasn't 4 figures left on the table and it wasn't 5 figures left on the table. It was life changing money.

 

Did it sting? Of course. It didn't sting because someone straightened out paper fibers.

 

Please don't think that I can't relate to all of you and am being thick. It's just that it is a free economy and people are as open to winning as they are to losing. It's not all win.

 

Just like buying and selling resin (my allegorical? story from before), everyone has the option of how much they are willing to pay and how much work they are willing to put in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[originalisbest]

Sorry that happened to you Roy.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I know that many people have this image of people or dealers who press books as secretly profiting at the expense of the poor innocent, but that's just a convenient way to portray it that doesn't take the actual person into the equation.

 

I had an indecent where I sold a book and that book got upgraded after I sold it. The book and amount? No that important. Let's say that it wasn't 4 figures left on the table and it wasn't 5 figures left on the table. It was life changing money.

 

Did it sting? Of course. It didn't sting because someone straightened out paper fibers.

 

Please don't think that I can't relate to all of you and am being thick. It's just that it is a free economy and people are as open to winning as they are to losing. It's not all win.

 

Just like buying and selling resin (my allegorical? story from before), everyone has the option of how much they are willing to pay and how much work they are willing to put in.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, If It Had Been A Five Figure Upgrade, I Might Have Some Inkling Of The Book.

[VintageComics]

Sorry that happened to you Roy.

 

It was in the past, it was a learning experience and I've moved on. No big deal in the grand scheme, because based on what I knew at the time I wasn't owed more by anyone.

 

Those that know better do better.

 

Point I'm trying to make is that we're all big people, we make our own decisions and we need accept the consequences of those decisions.

 

Caveat emptor. Even with resin.

[fantastic_four]

You're the very last person in the entire forum I'll believe cares nothing about the money at all there, Gordon Gekko.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I care plenty about money. It just doesn't play any role whatsoever regarding whether I approve of pressing or not.

 

In any case, Pandora's Box was opened long ago, so I think people have to either live with the current status quo or find themselves a new hobby. There's no going back at this point, unfortunately.

 

That's how I feel. Think of it in sports.

 

There's all kinds of banned steroids and PED's that CAN be tested for. AND all kinds of LEGAL supplements that athletes can take. Yes, there are many who long for the days of yore when athletes could chain smoke and play drunk like Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth, but we live in a age where Kobe Bryant is injecting Cambodian breast milk into his knees in Germany every year (allegedly). Now you can't test for the Cambodian breast milk (it seems mostly natural) conclusively. What if other players start injecting Cambodian breast milk into their knees. Yes we've lost the wonder of thinking Wilt Chamberlain had relations with 19 different women before a game, but we can enjoy Kobe and his Cambodian breast milk knees for at a higher level. Yes some of the magic is gone of players just waking up and getting triple doubles like Ice Cube, but if you look at it directly, he was a JOY to watch last year (and I don't even like the Lakers or Kobe).

 

So you can sit around debating the merits of a Cambodian breast milk supplement that you CAN'T test for which appears to have no real side affects (but appears safe, although we can't say for sure in the long term), other than making your knees work a little better (doesn't work on any other part of the body), or you can enjoy the game of basketball, which you love and have loved for a long time.

 

But if your love of basketball or sports is based on the fact that these people are 'super' men, that they just eat a lot of eggs and veggies and drink a lot of milk and magically become super athletes and play just for the love of the game, then you're not going to enjoy sports nearly as much. It's a lot of science, and a LOT of money.

 

I am totally in favor of injecting Cambodian breast milk into comics instead of pressing them. Or in addition to pressing them. Either way, as long as my comics have breast milk in them.

[pickycollector]

Are people really outraged over unbending paper fibers?

 

Sorry, Roy, you could not be more off-base if you tried. It's not about "unbending paper fibers", it's about destroying the magic surrounding beautiful comics that somehow survived the ravages of time for decades. It used to be when I saw a super high grade comic, I used to marvel at how it had somehow survived mom throwing it out, being read and all the other damage-causing pitfalls that most comics encounter. This was especially true of pedigree books.

 

But now? Not so much, because we know that a near totality of high grade books is pressed/worked on prior to submission, even books that arguably don't need to be worked on. Minor imperfections, in many cases, can simply be pressed away. Friends of mine who press tell me flat-out that, even if there is not obvious damage that can be repaired by pressing, they'll throw a book under the press to "freshen it up" for sale anyway. Unless you don't know what you're doing (re: pressing), there's no downside to doing so, right? Not to mention, while we're on the subject destroying the magic of books surviving the ravages of time, staple-popping is now more prevalent than pill popping at an EDM festival, while cleaning (even solvent cleaning) is very common practice as well. It's all about getting your books "worked on" and prepped for sale; gone is the illusion that the book you see today actually achieved that condition through careful storage and preservation.

 

Frankly, that bothers me and destroys any illusion that collecting high grade used to have for me. It doesn't have anything to do with money.

Extremely well written and awesome post

[jimbo_707]

I know that many people have this image of people or dealers who press books as secretly profiting at the expense of the poor innocent, but that's just a convenient way to portray it that doesn't take the actual person into the equation.

 

I had an indecent where I sold a book and that book got upgraded after I sold it. The book and amount? No that important. Let's say that it wasn't 4 figures left on the table and it wasn't 5 figures left on the table. It was life changing money.

 

Did it sting? Of course. It didn't sting because someone straightened out paper fibers.

 

Please don't think that I can't relate to all of you and am being thick. It's just that it is a free economy and people are as open to winning as they are to losing. It's not all win.

 

Just like buying and selling resin (my allegorical? story from before), everyone has the option of how much they are willing to pay and how much work they are willing to put in.

 

 

I guess that's the difference between me and you. I would not have cared about someone else making the money. I would have been deeply saddened that a nice book had been pressed, especially if it was a scarce issue. If it was some silver age key, I'd care a lot less, because even AF 15 and FF 1, etc., are extremely common compared to the (far lower dollar value) GA books I collect.

 

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly. Feeling bad about "missing out" would be like feeling bad about "missing out" if someone you sold a comic to robbed a bank and made $100K.

 

The degree to which I'm upset about a book being pressed is very much proportional to how rare that book is, not how much it's worth. I want high-grade, white-paged, unpressed books for my collection, but I collect relatively scarce GA. For many issues, there may be only 1 high grade, white-paged copy in existence. Every time some sleazebag money grubber presses the one existing high-grade, white-paged copy of a particular issue, my chances of owning that issue in the condition I want go from slim to zero, not because of fate (like a fire or flood) but because of the greed of some conscienceless swindler.

[fantastic_four]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly. Feeling bad about "missing out" would be like feeling bad about "missing out" if someone you sold a comic to robbed a bank and made $100K.

 

Having an issue with the money surrounding pressing doesn't have to rely upon you feeling like you missed out on an opportunity for yourself--just people focusing on the money instead of the book like you're describing here is one of those money-related bad tastes that pressing leaves in people's mouths. As you suggest, pressing money is looked at as "dishonest" money. Or free money that wasn't earned. Or money left on the table by an honest person who decided not to press a comic and claimed by a dishonest person lacking that ethic. It's all money-related though, and to allow the greed of others to ruin your own collecting experience is unfortunate but understandable.

[revat]

Is it automatically greed to try and make money? Is it automatically greed to take a product, enhance it, and sell it for more money than it cost you to buy and enhance it? Isn't that how 8 zillion of us make money?

 

Isn't that how comics work? You take a piece of paper and some ink/pencil, apply your ideas and hard work and have something more valuable? The publisher takes that image, and reproduces the pages a zillion times and sells those comics? What about the comic book store? They didn't make the comic. Is it ok that they are looking for profit by selling you a comic that they had no hand in creating or preserving?

 

Just because people don't like pressing doesn't make pressing equivalent to evil or 'swindling'. If you can be in an expensive hobby and not worry about future financial ramifications of your hobby, I feel fantastic for you that you can take that position. But if you're a dealer working with thin margins and your kids depend on you for food and shelter based on the BUSINESS you do, you make your choice and take your consequences where they lie. Be honest and ethical (disclose as much as possible) and do your thing, its your comic.

 

Is it dishonest for me to press a comic which I've owned for 20 years, slab it, leave it on my shelf for 20 years, then sell it (with full disclosure) to pay for my grandson's college? Are those somehow ill gotten gains? Did I swindle someone?

[Green]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

 

[revat]

I also agree that it works the other way. If I personally draw unicorns all over an old comic, its gonna be worth less to some people. But its a risk that you take as the OWNER. Once you press, you limit the market to some extent. But its up to that person. No one is ever forcing anyone to buy a comic. No 'swindle' or dishonesty here as far as I can see. Maybe my definition is wrong.

 

But I do see the frustration. If I don't like pressed comics, and there's only 5 in high grade in existence of that comic, and 3 of the are pressed, I'd be pretty pissed because it significantly lowers the odds of me getting an umpressed one. Value is not the actual base issue in this case.

[revat]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

 

Even full fledged restoration is not dishonest IN ANY MANNER whatsoever as long as it is disclosed to buyers.

[ItsJustRyan]

still reading.

[miraclemet]

This statement

 

I would not have cared about someone else making the money.

 

does not appear to be congruous with these statements in the same post

 

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

Every time some sleazebag money grubber.. ... but because of the greed of some conscienceless swindler.

 

You don't sound sad. You sound angry. And you sound angry about the money part of it along with your perception of the destruction of these books. You talk about it as an act of dishonesty, of swindling, so take a look and realize you ARE mad about the money, maybe you're just mad about the money because it is the incentive for people to do something you hate seeing happen.

 

 

Do you yell at people who flip houses on HGTV?

 

What about commodities dealers on the stock exchange?

 

I get your dislike of pressing. You have some valid positions about a desire to own books that are as unmolested as possible, whether that occurs thru an unintentional action or if it occurs thru an intentional action

 

I don't get equating the act of taking something, improving it by some peoples perspectives (I understand YOU don't see it as improved, you dont' have to belabor that point), and then selling it at a value equal to that improved state and calling that dishonest, money grubbing swindling.

 

If this was a market that valued/accepted restoration like the fine art market would you be against someone restoring a Monet? Would you be against them buying it at a lesser value (due to its lesser condition) then investing time & money in restoring it and then selling it for more (at an amount the market supports)?

 

As always, I enjoy a contrary position against which to argue points.

 

[Disclaimer/Disclosure: I'm not a big presser/flipper. I've had Joey (or anyone else) press exactly 1 book (SA) since I've been collecting. That one press is still in my collection, and will stay]

[fantastic_four]

Is it automatically greed to try and make money? Is it automatically greed to take a product, enhance it, and sell it for more money than it cost you to buy and enhance it? Isn't that how 8 zillion of us make money?

 

Isn't that how comics work? You take a piece of paper and some ink/pencil, apply your ideas and hard work and have something more valuable? The publisher takes that image, and reproduces the pages a zillion times and sells those comics? What about the comic book store? They didn't make the comic. Is it ok that they are looking for profit by selling you a comic that they had no hand in creating or preserving?

 

Just because people don't like pressing doesn't make pressing equivalent to evil or 'swindling'. If you can be in an expensive hobby and not worry about future financial ramifications of your hobby, I feel fantastic for you that you can take that position. But if you're a dealer working with thin margins and your kids depend on you for food and shelter based on the BUSINESS you do, you make your choice and take your consequences where they lie. Be honest and ethical (disclose as much as possible) and do your thing, its your comic.

 

Is it dishonest for me to press a comic which I've owned for 20 years, slab it, leave it on my shelf for 20 years, then sell it (with full disclosure) to pay for my grandson's college? Are those somehow ill gotten gains? Did I swindle someone?

 

No, it's not dishonest. Some people think it is, though. Some of those people have a socialist/communist malaise bad feeling about capitalism in general, but more of them just wish the comics hobby could be simple and that money wasn't a part of it. Like the mom n' pop shops or book exchanges of the 1930s through the 1950s where people bought old comics and newspaper for a dime or so. Few likely actually consciously think, that, though...they've just become bitter in various, subtle ways about the money pervading the vintage comics hobby.

 

Most people just don't like the idea of other people reaching into their pockets. So if you dislike pressing to begin with, the people grifting from you are sellers of pressed books or buyers of your own books who press your stuff and flip it at a profit. Both of those money-related activities people off more than anything else about pressing--at least seriously enough to seriously curtail or exit the hobby.

[jimbo_707]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

Just because you're not intelligent enough to follow my logic doesn't make it foolish.

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

[comicwiz]

In order to declare something has been restored, you have to be able to detect the repairs - you can't do that with heat and pressure - because those two qualities can be applied to the book at any time in it's existence.

 

This isn't entirely accurate, as overexposing paper to either of those elements (especially heat) can introduce environmental influences such as moisture. I've actually seen situations where heat accumulates and gets trapped inside a comics interior while under a press, causing a steam burst with the slightest lifting of the book, allowing the previously trapped heat to be released. And you could not only see (and feel the heat) of the steam burst, but through the trail of water damage it left behind, on the interior pages, and forming on the edge of the cover.

 

We can't say this isn't the norm because we've known bad pressing to happen not only with spine-shifting, but as soon as dry mount presses became a necessary tool for comic hobbying.

[fantastic_four]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

Just because you're not intelligent enough to follow my logic doesn't make it foolish.

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

 

You're a perfect illustration of one of the conflicted many who dislike pressing because of the money involved yet deny their dislike of pressing to be related to the money--rarely do we get a glimpse of someone both denying it's about the money yet revealing that it IS, in fact, partially about the money all in the same thread. Note that we're not suggesting it's the ONLY reason you're pissed--but it is indeed one of many. I believe you in your non-monetary reasons for disliking it as well. And this is exactly why Roy and I are maintaining that people are disingenuous when they say it isn't about the money--BS! If the money aspect of pressing ISN'T you off, you're not thinking about it hard enough. It SHOULD you off, a little. Who likes the idea of other people reaching into their pockets or profiting greatly for very little work? It's so totally understandable.

[Foolkiller]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

Just because you're not intelligent enough to follow my logic doesn't make it foolish.

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

 

What if you restore a book for the sake of preservation or just to make it look nicer? For instance, someone as a GA book which is a 1.0 made into a 6.5 because it looks better through leaf casting? Dishonest? Do they lack respect for the book?