When did pressing a comic before every sub become the norm?

[jimbo_707]

No one with a conscience would press a book and sell it without disclosing the pressing. People who do that are con artists, period. They are no different than used car salesmen who put sawdust into a crankcase in order to quiet a car down for a sale.

 

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Do you disclose everything you have done to a book while it was in your possession prior to a sale?

 

Cause if you don't you're no different than the Pilgrams trading pox infested blankets to the Native Americans. [am I playing the non sequitur hyperbole game right?]

 

[disclaimer, the few pressed books I've sold, were bought pre-pressed by the former owner, and I disclosed the pre-existing press]

Pressing of comic books is a con game because it's getting a buyer to pay more for something then he would if he had complete knowledge of the book's condition.

 

First, keep in mind that pressing does not restore a comic book to it's previous condition, it only gives the appearance of having done so. The creases and wrinkles are still there at a microscopic level.

 

To understand that, it helps if you know the difference between elastic deformation and plastic deformation. If you bend or roll a comic cover in your fingers slightly, but it goes back to being flat as soon as you let go, that is elastic deformation. If you do the same thing but leave a finger bend, that's plastic deformation, which is irreversible. Plastic deformation cannot be pressed out, it can only be obscured or hidden.

 

If an 8.0 book (worth $1000) is pressed and gets slabbed as a 9.0, in my opinion it is not a true 9.0, it is an 8.0 that has been manipulated to look like a 9.0 to the naked eye. To make matters worse, the book has been exposed to extreme heat, which could be a catalyst for deterioration of the page quality in the long run. If I then unwittingly buy that book for $2000 (the 9.0 price), I have been robbed of $1000. If I never crack out the book and look at it under a microscope, I may not know that I have been robbed, but I have been robbed just the same.

 

It seems very easy for people to gloss over the extent to which sellers of books with undisclosed pressing are victimizing the collectors who buy those books.

 

 

I'd never thought of looking at my books under a microscope to grade them.

 

Do people do that?

To detect manipulation like solvent cleaning, pressing, or trimming, yes.

[miraclemet]

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Use a 2-person scenario to see it...

Collector confides to Player he wants to sell is CGC 9.4 and upgrade to a CGC 9.8. Player says he can help with that and buys Collector's 9.4, will keep a look-out for a nice CGC 9.8. Customer service, you know.

 

After a time Player calls Collector and says he's located a beautiful CGC 9.8 he thinks Collector will be interested in.

 

Player sells Collector back his comic at a sizable premium, not disclosing his 9.4 was pressed to its new 9.8 incarnation.

Was Collector conned?

 

A transaction where one person withholds information to tilt the exchange to his favor isn't a mutual transaction.

Both parties being aware, both parties can decide to transact or not: Mutual.

 

That's a super entertaining scenario!

 

I love a good academic discussion (you know the kind that dont devolve into equating one side of the argument with Sexual Predators).

 

While the exchange favored the Player (in terms of profit) S/he also took on the risk of pressing the book, and the expense, and the time that his $$ was tied up in that endeavor. It worked out, but if the book had come back as another 9.4, the Player would have been the "loser" in the scenario (and depending on GPA, a 9.6 might have been a break even grade).

 

Lets use a similar scenario and ask if this is a con.

 

Collector has a 9.4 and is looking for an upgrade.

Player believes that the Collector's 9.4 is under-graded.

He buys it off the Collector, re-subs it (no press) and it comes back a 9.6!

He then sells it to the Collector for GPA price and makes a profit.

 

Should the Player have disclosed that the book in the Collectors collection could have been resubbed? (If it was his friend sure, but lets assume internet anonymity) Should the Player tell the Collector that he's selling him his own book back?

 

[comix4fun]

No one with a conscience would press a book and sell it without disclosing the pressing. People who do that are con artists, period. They are no different than used car salesmen who put sawdust into a crankcase in order to quiet a car down for a sale.

 

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Do you disclose everything you have done to a book while it was in your possession prior to a sale?

 

Cause if you don't you're no different than the Pilgrams trading pox infested blankets to the Native Americans. [am I playing the non sequitur hyperbole game right?]

 

[disclaimer, the few pressed books I've sold, were bought pre-pressed by the former owner, and I disclosed the pre-existing press]

Pressing of comic books is a con game because it's getting a buyer to pay more for something then he would if he had complete knowledge of the book's condition.

 

First, keep in mind that pressing does not restore a comic book to it's previous condition, it only gives the appearance of having done so. The creases and wrinkles are still there at a microscopic level.

 

To understand that, it helps if you know the difference between elastic deformation and plastic deformation. If you bend or roll a comic cover in your fingers slightly, but it goes back to being flat as soon as you let go, that is elastic deformation. If you do the same thing but leave a finger bend, that's plastic deformation, which is irreversible. Plastic deformation cannot be pressed out, it can only be obscured or hidden.

 

If an 8.0 book (worth $1000) is pressed and gets slabbed as a 9.0, in my opinion it is not a true 9.0, it is an 8.0 that has been manipulated to look like a 9.0 to the naked eye. To make matters worse, the book has been exposed to extreme heat, which could be a catalyst for deterioration of the page quality in the long run. If I then unwittingly buy that book for $2000 (the 9.0 price), I have been robbed of $1000. If I never crack out the book and look at it under a microscope, I may not know that I have been robbed, but I have been robbed just the same.

 

It seems very easy for people to gloss over the extent to which sellers of books with undisclosed pressing are victimizing the collectors who buy those books.

 

 

I'd never thought of looking at my books under a microscope to grade them.

 

Do people do that?

To detect manipulation like solvent cleaning, pressing, or trimming, yes.

 

 

So it would have to be cracked out of the slab, correct?

 

Do many people buy 4 and 5 figure slabs and crack them out to analyze them that way?

 

Thinking out loud:

So much of collecting is eye appeal or "naked eye" appeal. The entire collecting world seems to be on that standard. If it's invisible to the eye and not part of the grading criteria I wonder if it counts as a defect at all to the greater collecting world.

 

That would seem odd for someone who collects slabs to be worried about microscopic defects that would be invisible on a raw book, and even more impossible to see inside an inner chamber and behind a plastic slab.

 

I would wager there are MANY unpressed 9.0's with invisible to the nekkid eye defects that exist, but they aren't 8.0's, they are 9.0's because graders grade what they can see, not what they can't.

 

Seems extraordinarily far afield to attempt to make a point.

[seanfingh]

 

Frankly, if I were in the anti-pressing camp, the thing I would be most upset at is the new "We can detect a lot of (bad) press jobs" stance. For years, the thing that beat down the resistance of a lot of people was the idea that it was undetectable. Again and again, despite the historic treatment of pressing as, at the very least, part of a restorative process, the concept that it was undetectable ground down a lot of resistance.

 

The fact that it hasn't generated a call-to-arms is testament to how beaten down the anti-pressers are.

[originalisbest]

No one with a conscience would press a book and sell it without disclosing the pressing. People who do that are con artists, period. They are no different than used car salesmen who put sawdust into a crankcase in order to quiet a car down for a sale.

 

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Do you disclose everything you have done to a book while it was in your possession prior to a sale?

 

Cause if you don't you're no different than the Pilgrams trading pox infested blankets to the Native Americans. [am I playing the non sequitur hyperbole game right?]

 

[disclaimer, the few pressed books I've sold, were bought pre-pressed by the former owner, and I disclosed the pre-existing press]

Pressing of comic books is a con game because it's getting a buyer to pay more for something then he would if he had complete knowledge of the book's condition.

 

First, keep in mind that pressing does not restore a comic book to it's previous condition, it only gives the appearance of having done so. The creases and wrinkles are still there at a microscopic level.

 

To understand that, it helps if you know the difference between elastic deformation and plastic deformation. If you bend or roll a comic cover in your fingers slightly, but it goes back to being flat as soon as you let go, that is elastic deformation. If you do the same thing but leave a finger bend, that's plastic deformation, which is irreversible. Plastic deformation cannot be pressed out, it can only be obscured or hidden.

 

If an 8.0 book (worth $1000) is pressed and gets slabbed as a 9.0, in my opinion it is not a true 9.0, it is an 8.0 that has been manipulated to look like a 9.0 to the naked eye. To make matters worse, the book has been exposed to extreme heat, which could be a catalyst for deterioration of the page quality in the long run. If I then unwittingly buy that book for $2000 (the 9.0 price), I have been robbed of $1000. If I never crack out the book and look at it under a microscope, I may not know that I have been robbed, but I have been robbed just the same.

 

It seems very easy for people to gloss over the extent to which sellers of books with undisclosed pressing are victimizing the collectors who buy those books.

 

 

I'd never thought of looking at my books under a microscope to grade them.

 

Do people do that?

To detect manipulation like solvent cleaning, pressing, or trimming, yes.

 

 

So it would have to be cracked out of the slab, correct?

 

Do many people buy 4 and 5 figure slabs and crack them out to analyze them that way?

 

Thinking out loud:

So much of collecting is eye appeal or "naked eye" appeal. The entire collecting world seems to be on that standard. If it's invisible to the eye and not part of the grading criteria I wonder if it counts as a defect at all to the greater collecting world.

 

That would seem odd for someone who collects slabs to be worried about microscopic defects that would be invisible on a raw book, and even more impossible to see inside an inner chamber and behind a plastic slab.

 

I would wager there are MANY unpressed 9.0's with invisible to the nekkid eye defects that exist, but they aren't 8.0's, they are 9.0's because graders grade what they can see, not what they can't.

 

Seems extraordinarily far afield to attempt to make a point.

 

The creases and wrinkles are still there at a microscopic level.

 

To understand that, it helps if you know the difference between elastic deformation and plastic deformation. If you bend or roll a comic cover in your fingers slightly, but it goes back to being flat as soon as you let go, that is elastic deformation. If you do the same thing but leave a finger bend, that's plastic deformation, which is irreversible. Plastic deformation cannot be pressed out, it can only be obscured or hidden.

 

--------

 

LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL at the above!

 

[VintageComics]

No one with a conscience would press a book and sell it without disclosing the pressing. People who do that are con artists, period. They are no different than used car salesmen who put sawdust into a crankcase in order to quiet a car down for a sale.

 

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Do you disclose everything you have done to a book while it was in your possession prior to a sale?

 

Cause if you don't you're no different than the Pilgrams trading pox infested blankets to the Native Americans. [am I playing the non sequitur hyperbole game right?]

 

[disclaimer, the few pressed books I've sold, were bought pre-pressed by the former owner, and I disclosed the pre-existing press]

Pressing of comic books is a con game because it's getting a buyer to pay more for something then he would if he had complete knowledge of the book's condition.

 

First, keep in mind that pressing does not restore a comic book to it's previous condition, it only gives the appearance of having done so. The creases and wrinkles are still there at a microscopic level.

 

To understand that, it helps if you know the difference between elastic deformation and plastic deformation. If you bend or roll a comic cover in your fingers slightly, but it goes back to being flat as soon as you let go, that is elastic deformation. If you do the same thing but leave a finger bend, that's plastic deformation, which is irreversible. Plastic deformation cannot be pressed out, it can only be obscured or hidden.

 

If an 8.0 book (worth $1000) is pressed and gets slabbed as a 9.0, in my opinion it is not a true 9.0, it is an 8.0 that has been manipulated to look like a 9.0 to the naked eye. To make matters worse, the book has been exposed to extreme heat, which could be a catalyst for deterioration of the page quality in the long run. If I then unwittingly buy that book for $2000 (the 9.0 price), I have been robbed of $1000. If I never crack out the book and look at it under a microscope, I may not know that I have been robbed, but I have been robbed just the same.

 

It seems very easy for people to gloss over the extent to which sellers of books with undisclosed pressing are victimizing the collectors who buy those books.

 

A few things that need to be shared in any pressing discussion that often get overlooked.

 

Most people who don't consider pressing restoration (or who don't dislike the process) don't consider so it because many of the negative things that people associate with pressing don't really hold water in the greater picture.

 

a) all pulp fibre is pressed and heated several times during the manufacturing process anyway - just ask your local printing company.

 

b) pressing is so benign that majority of the time it's undetectable when done properly. If a tree falls in the forest but nobody is around to hear it...

 

c) pressing can happen naturally under the correct circumstances. I've seen it on original owner collections that were stored in humid environments were 60 year old books were stacked and pressed flat (likely due to the humidity) and there was no space left at the spine but the books were never pressed professionally.

 

d) there was a test done on the strength of paper fibres by a group on here and the paper fibers so far did not show any damage - in fact, the moisture introduced during the process seemed to strengthen the fibre bonds by making them more resilient.

 

 

 

 

[originalisbest]

Frankly, if I were in the anti-pressing camp, the thing I would be most upset at is the new "We can detect a lot of (bad) press jobs" stance. For years, the thing that beat down the resistance of a lot of people was the idea that it was undetectable. Again and again, despite the historic treatment of pressing as, at the very least, part of a restorative process, the concept that it was undetectable ground down a lot of resistance.

 

The fact that it hasn't generated a call-to-arms is testament to how beaten down the anti-pressers are.

 

Not at all hard to tell. For instance a bad press job might be defined as a book with more wavy ripples introduced to it than are caused when dropping a brick into a lake. Good press job = making a book flatter and more eye-appealing, not introducing folds, ripples, stains, etc that make it look WORSE.

[pickycollector]

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Use a 2-person scenario to see it...

Collector confides to Player he wants to sell is CGC 9.4 and upgrade to a CGC 9.8. Player says he can help with that and buys Collector's 9.4, will keep a look-out for a nice CGC 9.8. Customer service, you know.

 

After a time Player calls Collector and says he's located a beautiful CGC 9.8 he thinks Collector will be interested in.

 

Player sells Collector back his comic at a sizable premium, not disclosing his 9.4 was pressed to its new 9.8 incarnation.

Was Collector conned?

 

A transaction where one person withholds information to tilt the exchange to his favor isn't a mutual transaction.

Both parties being aware, both parties can decide to transact or not: Mutual.

 

That's a super entertaining scenario!

 

I love a good academic discussion (you know the kind that dont devolve into equating one side of the argument with Sexual Predators).

 

While the exchange favored the Player (in terms of profit) S/he also took on the risk of pressing the book, and the expense, and the time that his $$ was tied up in that endeavor. It worked out, but if the book had come back as another 9.4, the Player would have been the "loser" in the scenario (and depending on GPA, a 9.6 might have been a break even grade).

 

Lets use a similar scenario and ask if this is a con.

 

Collector has a 9.4 and is looking for an upgrade.

Player believes that the Collector's 9.4 is under-graded.

He buys it off the Collector, re-subs it (no press) and it comes back a 9.6! He then sells it to the Collector for GPA price and makes a profit.

 

Should the Player have disclosed that the book in the Collectors collection could have been resubbed? (If it was his friend sure, but lets assume internet anonymity) Should the Player tell the Collector that he's selling him his own book back?

In this particular scenario (Collector buying his own book back without knowing), you are totally correct, if he is ethical, Seller should disclose to Collector that the book is his own former book, whether it was pressed or not, so that Collector can all have the information before deciding if he wants to purchase the book (his own) or not.

[originalisbest]

No one with a conscience would press a book and sell it without disclosing the pressing. People who do that are con artists, period. They are no different than used car salesmen who put sawdust into a crankcase in order to quiet a car down for a sale.

 

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Do you disclose everything you have done to a book while it was in your possession prior to a sale?

 

Cause if you don't you're no different than the Pilgrams trading pox infested blankets to the Native Americans. [am I playing the non sequitur hyperbole game right?]

 

[disclaimer, the few pressed books I've sold, were bought pre-pressed by the former owner, and I disclosed the pre-existing press]

Pressing of comic books is a con game because it's getting a buyer to pay more for something then he would if he had complete knowledge of the book's condition.

 

First, keep in mind that pressing does not restore a comic book to it's previous condition, it only gives the appearance of having done so. The creases and wrinkles are still there at a microscopic level.

 

To understand that, it helps if you know the difference between elastic deformation and plastic deformation. If you bend or roll a comic cover in your fingers slightly, but it goes back to being flat as soon as you let go, that is elastic deformation. If you do the same thing but leave a finger bend, that's plastic deformation, which is irreversible. Plastic deformation cannot be pressed out, it can only be obscured or hidden.

 

If an 8.0 book (worth $1000) is pressed and gets slabbed as a 9.0, in my opinion it is not a true 9.0, it is an 8.0 that has been manipulated to look like a 9.0 to the naked eye. To make matters worse, the book has been exposed to extreme heat, which could be a catalyst for deterioration of the page quality in the long run. If I then unwittingly buy that book for $2000 (the 9.0 price), I have been robbed of $1000. If I never crack out the book and look at it under a microscope, I may not know that I have been robbed, but I have been robbed just the same.

 

It seems very easy for people to gloss over the extent to which sellers of books with undisclosed pressing are victimizing the collectors who buy those books.

 

A few things that need to be shared in any pressing discussion that often get overlooked.

 

Most people who don't consider pressing restoration (or who don't dislike the process) don't consider so it because many of the negative things that people associate with pressing don't really hold water in the greater picture.

 

a) all pulp fibre is pressed and heated several times during the manufacturing process anyway - just ask your local printing company.

 

b) pressing is so benign that majority of the time it's undetectable when done properly. If a tree falls in the forest but nobody is around to hear it...

 

c) pressing can happen naturally under the correct circumstances. I've seen it on original owner collections that were stored in humid environments were 60 year old books were stacked and pressed flat (likely due to the humidity) and there was no space left at the spine but the books were never pressed professionally.

 

d) there was a test done on the strength of paper fibres by a group on here and the paper fibers so far did not show any damage - in fact, the moisture introduced during the process seemed to strengthen the fibre bonds by making them more resilient.

 

 

 

 

I agree with Roy. This is usually the case. More than likely it's due to the convincing nature of his flowing hair.

[thunsicker]

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Use a 2-person scenario to see it...

Collector confides to Player he wants to sell is CGC 9.4 and upgrade to a CGC 9.8. Player says he can help with that and buys Collector's 9.4, will keep a look-out for a nice CGC 9.8. Customer service, you know.

 

After a time Player calls Collector and says he's located a beautiful CGC 9.8 he thinks Collector will be interested in.

 

Player sells Collector back his comic at a sizable premium, not disclosing his 9.4 was pressed to its new 9.8 incarnation.

Was Collector conned?

 

A transaction where one person withholds information to tilt the exchange to his favor isn't a mutual transaction.

Both parties being aware, both parties can decide to transact or not: Mutual.

 

That's a super entertaining scenario!

 

I love a good academic discussion (you know the kind that dont devolve into equating one side of the argument with Sexual Predators).

 

While the exchange favored the Player (in terms of profit) S/he also took on the risk of pressing the book, and the expense, and the time that his $$ was tied up in that endeavor. It worked out, but if the book had come back as another 9.4, the Player would have been the "loser" in the scenario (and depending on GPA, a 9.6 might have been a break even grade).

 

Lets use a similar scenario and ask if this is a con.

 

Collector has a 9.4 and is looking for an upgrade.

Player believes that the Collector's 9.4 is under-graded.

He buys it off the Collector, re-subs it (no press) and it comes back a 9.6! He then sells it to the Collector for GPA price and makes a profit.

 

Should the Player have disclosed that the book in the Collectors collection could have been resubbed? (If it was his friend sure, but lets assume internet anonymity) Should the Player tell the Collector that he's selling him his own book back?

In this particular scenario (Collector buying his own book back without knowing), you are totally correct, if he is ethical, Seller should disclose to Collector that the book is his own former book, whether it was pressed or not, so that Collector can all have the information before deciding if he wants to purchase the book (his own) or not.

 

Then next step. He sells it to another person. Is he morally obliged to tell that new customer that it previously was graded a 9.4?

[seanfingh]

Frankly, if I were in the anti-pressing camp, the thing I would be most upset at is the new "We can detect a lot of (bad) press jobs" stance. For years, the thing that beat down the resistance of a lot of people was the idea that it was undetectable. Again and again, despite the historic treatment of pressing as, at the very least, part of a restorative process, the concept that it was undetectable ground down a lot of resistance.

 

The fact that it hasn't generated a call-to-arms is testament to how beaten down the anti-pressers are.

 

Not at all hard to tell. For instance a bad press job might be defined as a book with more wavy ripples introduced to it than are caused when dropping a brick into a lake. Good press job = making a book flatter and more eye-appealing, not introducing folds, ripples, stains, etc that make it look WORSE.

 

What does that have to do with the complete walkaway from "it's undetectable?"

[originalisbest]

What does that have to do with the complete walkaway from "it's undetectable?"

 

-------------

 

 

I think the claim that a PROPER press job is undetectable holds water.

 

If you mess a book up, whether by poor pressing technique or laying it in a moisture ring on a desk with corners folded over and three encyclopedia volumes on top -- that's gonna be detectable.

[comix4fun]

What does that have to do with the complete walkaway from "it's undetectable?"

 

-------------

 

 

I think the claim that a PROPER press job is undetectable holds water.

 

If you mess a book up, whether by poor pressing technique or laying it in a moisture ring on a desk with corners folded over and three encyclopedia volumes on top -- that's gonna be detectable.

 

 

I think everyone is referring to the normal pressing job that isn't detectable is you didn't see the same book before the process.

 

Of course a botched press job is detectable, much in the same way a botched breast enhancement job is detectable if the surgeon placed one of the implants on the patient's back.

 

 

[DrWatson]

What does that have to do with the complete walkaway from "it's undetectable?"

 

-------------

 

 

I think the claim that a PROPER press job is undetectable holds water.

 

If you mess a book up, whether by poor pressing technique or laying it in a moisture ring on a desk with corners folded over and three encyclopedia volumes on top -- that's gonna be detectable.

 

 

I think everyone is referring to the normal pressing job that isn't detectable is you didn't see the same book before the process.

 

Of course a botched press job is detectable, much in the same way a botched breast enhancement job is detectable if the surgeon placed one of the implants on the patient's back.

 

Or right between the eyes.

 

I think there are a few of those around here...

 

[Dick Pontoon]

I wouldn't mind if somebody pressed their implants between my eyes.

[DrWatson]

I wouldn't mind if somebody pressed their implants between my eyes.

I know this guy with testicular implants.

 

[VintageComics]

Frankly, if I were in the anti-pressing camp, the thing I would be most upset at is the new "We can detect a lot of (bad) press jobs" stance. For years, the thing that beat down the resistance of a lot of people was the idea that it was undetectable. Again and again, despite the historic treatment of pressing as, at the very least, part of a restorative process, the concept that it was undetectable ground down a lot of resistance.

 

The fact that it hasn't generated a call-to-arms is testament to how beaten down the anti-pressers are.

 

I have a problem with that as well, and it's become a conflict of interest ( @ Transplant - you were right).

 

If they have an in house pressing company and can also now co-incidentally detect poor pressing better that funnels more business through the in house pressing service.

 

In order to get the best grade you now need to use their pressing service. Why wasn't the poor pressing detected before?

 

I'm really having trouble with that one because

 

a) it's almost like grading shadows and tanning - it's entirely subjective.

b) it's inconsistent. I was told I had books that I had pressed (not through CGC) and submitted with flaring or butterflying or crushed spines when in fact I personally don't think there was any, or if it was it was negligible enough that nobody would have given it a second thought a year ago.

 

 

[miraclemet]

before you even start reading let me say thanks for a good bit of entertaining mental gymnastics. Making for a nice way to distract my way thrua monday.

 

Pressing of comic books is a con game because it's getting a buyer to pay more for something then he would if he had complete knowledge of the book's condition.

 

Pressing is not a condition, its an action. I agree with you that books conditions should be disclosed when buying them. Its even a benefit when selling a CGC graded book to note what the actual conditions were that led to a particular grade. As I look at my overstreet guide, and my other various condition notes, I've never seen anyone call out the flatness of the book or the "almost" crushed-ness of a spine being a determining factor in a books grade. (And saying "almost crushed is like saying "almost a virgin"... it either is or isn't). Based on your satment that actions done to a book should be disclosed where do you draw the line? I'll extrapolate your position... Any action that could impact the condition of the book (like pressing) should be disclosed. That would include full descriptions of how the book has been stored over the course of its life, the number of times it was read. Whether anyone with sticky hands ever touched the book, etc... All actions (including pressing) should be disclosed.

 

First, keep in mind that pressing does not restore a comic book to it's previous condition, it only gives the appearance of having done so. The creases and wrinkles are still there at a microscopic level.

 

I'll agree with you there in some aspects. An extremely flat comic is not the same as it was when it was created (stapled and then folded over, with a slight curvature). I dont know about the microscopic-ness of still existing creases. I dont collect my books at a microscopic level, just eye level, and eye appeal.

 

To understand that, it helps if you know the difference between elastic deformation and plastic deformation. If you bend or roll a comic cover in your fingers slightly, but it goes back to being flat as soon as you let go, that is elastic deformation. If you do the same thing but leave a finger bend, that's plastic deformation, which is irreversible. Plastic deformation cannot be pressed out, it can only be obscured or hidden.

 

Interesting, can you cite this, or provide some visual examples? I did a little google searching but couldnt find anything. It makes sense that a bent piece of paper is fundamentally change when it does not flex back to its natural position, and that pressing (which puts it back in its natural position) has to affect the paper by again changing the paper structure to go flat.

 

If an 8.0 book (worth $1000) is pressed and gets slabbed as a 9.0, in my opinion it is not a true 9.0, it is an 8.0 that has been manipulated to look like a 9.0 to the naked eye. To make matters worse, the book has been exposed to extreme heat, which could be a catalyst for deterioration of the page quality in the long run. If I then unwittingly buy that book for $2000 (the 9.0 price), I have been robbed of $1000. If I never crack out the book and look at it under a microscope, I may not know that I have been robbed, but I have been robbed just the same.

 

Its good that you are aware that your position is just an opinion. The statement of a "true" 9.0 is loaded, and tough to unpack since it is a person-by person decision (some people argue about how an off centered 9.8 cant be a 9.8, so its not a "true" 9.8) . "Robbed" is less of a grey area though...If the book that you purchased for $2k is worth $2k on the market, then I would argue that you were robbed of nothing. While you might not value you it as $2k, the market (likely) does. Your better argument is that you were defrauded of the opportunity to own an unpressed 9.0, which is what you wanted to buy. If the seller knew you wanted to purchase an unpressed 9.0 and he presented you with a pressed 9.0 and presented as unpressed, you were defrauded. Now if you did not state this desire (maybe only stating that you wanted Book X in CGC 9.0), well that is what you got. Your opinion differs with CGC (who says it is a CGC 9.0, but you would say it is not), but then I would ask why are you bothering with buying CGC graded books when you disagree so fundamentally on grading. Also considering how wide spread pressing is, any buyer who is anti-pressing is deluding themselves by not asking if a book is pressed before buying it.

 

Others have mentioned that the heat used in pressing is the same heat used in the printing process for curing the ink. I've never personally pressed a book with my own hands, so I dont know the setting on the pressing machine or the printing equipment. I also dont know if there's a difference in the amount of time the paper is exposed to heat (is it more in pressing or more in the printing process?). You also say that it "could" be a catalyst... which is not that same as "will"... its a supposition that has no specific facts behind it so it just hurts your argument. I could similarly say that pressing the book could result in winning the lottery (Im sure there an example out there of a person who pressed a book AND won the lottery).

 

It seems very easy for people to gloss over the extent to which sellers of books with undisclosed pressing are victimizing the collectors who buy those books.

 

again "victimizing" is a pretty loaded term. Do I think sellers should disclose pressing they are aware of? Yes. Do I think its the end of the world if they dont? No. There's no monetary impact from the market (pressed and non-pressed books change hands at the same rate). This is not the same as selling a color touched book as unrestored, where there is a sizable difference in the market valuation of the book with or without that restoration (that WOULD be a con).

[pickycollector]

How is selling a pressed book cheating the buyer (a'la a con artist)?

 

Buyer is buying a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer pays for a CGC 9.8 book, Buyer gets a CGC 9.8 book.

 

Where's the con?

 

Use a 2-person scenario to see it...

Collector confides to Player he wants to sell is CGC 9.4 and upgrade to a CGC 9.8. Player says he can help with that and buys Collector's 9.4, will keep a look-out for a nice CGC 9.8. Customer service, you know.

 

After a time Player calls Collector and says he's located a beautiful CGC 9.8 he thinks Collector will be interested in.

 

Player sells Collector back his comic at a sizable premium, not disclosing his 9.4 was pressed to its new 9.8 incarnation.

Was Collector conned?

 

A transaction where one person withholds information to tilt the exchange to his favor isn't a mutual transaction.

Both parties being aware, both parties can decide to transact or not: Mutual.

 

That's a super entertaining scenario!

 

I love a good academic discussion (you know the kind that dont devolve into equating one side of the argument with Sexual Predators).

 

While the exchange favored the Player (in terms of profit) S/he also took on the risk of pressing the book, and the expense, and the time that his $$ was tied up in that endeavor. It worked out, but if the book had come back as another 9.4, the Player would have been the "loser" in the scenario (and depending on GPA, a 9.6 might have been a break even grade).

 

Lets use a similar scenario and ask if this is a con.

 

Collector has a 9.4 and is looking for an upgrade.

Player believes that the Collector's 9.4 is under-graded.

He buys it off the Collector, re-subs it (no press) and it comes back a 9.6! He then sells it to the Collector for GPA price and makes a profit.

 

Should the Player have disclosed that the book in the Collectors collection could have been resubbed? (If it was his friend sure, but lets assume internet anonymity) Should the Player tell the Collector that he's selling him his own book back?

In this particular scenario (Collector buying his own book back without knowing), you are totally correct, if he is ethical, Seller should disclose to Collector that the book is his own former book, whether it was pressed or not, so that Collector can all have the information before deciding if he wants to purchase the book (his own) or not.

 

Then next step. He sells it to another person. Is he morally obliged to tell that new customer that it previously was graded a 9.4?

Good point but there is a big difference. If you sell me back my own book without me knowing (I guess no scan was provided), I would be really pissed off at you upon reception of the book as I would easily recognize my former book and would know for sure you voluntarily did hide an important fact to me (it was my book that I sold to you and that you are re-selling to me).

 

On the other end, if book was somebody's else book rather than my own and that it just got a grade bump (let's say unpressed), I would be pissed off at CGC for being so inconsistent in their grading rather than being mad at you for re-selling me my own book.

 

Now the big question is: should you always disclose a grade bump (pressed or not) when you are fully aware of it ? My answer would be yes, so the buyer can decide if he wants to buy the book or the label.

 

Of course we are talking about a CGC book that got a grade bump and not a raw book which would be different.

[divad]

blah blah blah Follow the money. Buy the label not the book. This really is a silly"business" when it becomes a business. I pity the poor folk who try to make a living at this.