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FS: ASM 40 & 50, TOS 48, FF 52, 112 - All CGC SS - CLOSED; MOVED TO EBAY

Started by travisbickle21,

41 posts in this topic

vaillant

vaillant

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Wow, is that in the interview as well? I admit that the Byrne FF run lost steam for me when Ben left the book, but I have a new appreciation for those stories now that I'm older. I also loved the story arc of Ben's solo adventures on the Secret Wars planet.I don't think Byrne's run is above criticism in any way, but I think he understood the characters and got a lot of it right -- far more than just about any creative team other than Lee/Kirby/Sinnott (have to include Joe because his inks on Jack's stuff was just phenomenal).

 

You are right in saying he got a lot right, but I find unacceptable how he handled the relationship between the Thing and Alicia, especially on Alicia’s part. And yes, the question is there but as I said Kirby knew nothing about it at the time, as he did not follow the work on the Fantastic Four.

 

Personally, and as I get to know the stories better, I rank high what Gerry Conway did (especially the critical period between Reed & Sue, and the introduction of Medusa) and I consider the Roy Thomas later run one of his best works. It might also be because I read these as a kid, but I have been re-checking the run and those stories are amazing. :)

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travisbickle21

travisbickle21

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I understand completely about Ben and Alicia's relationship. That was like a dagger in the heart. As a kid, I hated the Human Torch for years. Hahahahha. Now, I am curious on how Byrne would have resolved everything in the long run. Of course, we'll probably never know for sure.

 

I have to dig for some old issues because I haven't read the old Gerry Conway and Roy Thomas issues in a looooong time. It definitely deserves another look. No matter what I'm sure it'll be a better take on the characters than Matt Fraction's current run.

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vaillant

vaillant

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I have to dig for some old issues because I haven't read the old Gerry Conway and Roy Thomas issues in a looooong time. It definitely deserves another look. No matter what I'm sure it'll be a better take on the characters than Matt Fraction's current run.

 

Matt Fraction, as the 90% of the other writers today, doesn’t even know WHO are the Fantastic Four. I have just picked the last 5-6 issues (totally avoided Millar and Hickman) and I really wouldn’t know from where to start with criticism.

 

The Roy Thomas run of the late 1970s is something incredible. He managed to orchestrate sub-plots and so many characters at once, doing a very "modern" work remaining more than faithful to the characters – what I loved is how it felt natural for the Impossible Man, Tigra and Thundra to become temporary members of the FF.

Not to mention how he used the Brute (which, after all, was his creation)… :cloud9:

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travisbickle21

travisbickle21

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Hahhahaha very true about Fraction and most of the writers, although, I admit that I did enjoy the Hickman run. There were grand space opera epics and some very surprising and touching stories intermixed. I don't put the overall run above Lee/Kirby run or the Byrne run, but I think it's not too far beneath them. Overall, I think Hickman understood the characters better than Waid did, but probably a little less than Walt Simonson's understanding of the characters.

 

One thing I can definitely say about Roy Thomas is that he revered that book and those characters. He wanted to team up with Kirby when he returned to Marvel in the 70s but, from my memory, Jack was weary of anyone riding his coattails. I really have to start digging up those old books.

 

And thanks for replying. I'm not making any sales here so I appreciate not talking to myself. hahahahah

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travisbickle21

travisbickle21

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So out of my last desperate move to make a buck

FF 52 4.0 unrestored Signed by Lee and Sinnott now $300 (shipping and insurance included)

 

ASM 50 5.5 unrestored Signed by Lee and Romita Sr. now $400 (shipping and insurance included)

 

ASM 40 4.0 unrestored Signed by Lee and Romita Sr. now $300 (shipping and insurance included)

 

TOS 48 4.0 unrestored Signed by Lee, Lieber and Ayers now $400 (shipping and insurance included)

 

FF 52 6.5 Restored Slight A Signed by Lee and Sinnott now $245 (shipping and insurance included)

 

FF 112 6.0 Restored Slight A Signed by Lee and Sinnott now $165 (shipping and insurance included)

 

Free shipping and insurance for Domestic only

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vaillant

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Hahhahaha very true about Fraction and most of the writers, although, I admit that I did enjoy the Hickman run. There were grand space opera epics and some very surprising and touching stories intermixed. I don't put the overall run above Lee/Kirby run or the Byrne run, but I think it's not too far beneath them. Overall, I think Hickman understood the characters better than Waid did, but probably a little less than Walt Simonson's understanding of the characters.

 

One thing I can definitely say about Roy Thomas is that he revered that book and those characters. He wanted to team up with Kirby when he returned to Marvel in the 70s but, from my memory, Jack was weary of anyone riding his coattails. I really have to start digging up those old books.

 

And thanks for replying. I'm not making any sales here so I appreciate not talking to myself. hahahahah

 

Well, the little I have read of the Hickman issues, he did not get what was essential to the characters, and all that "space opera" as you called it, it’s imbued of that kind of negative "vibe" which has polluted the thought of last century’s philosophy (and teology) – the FFs are not like that. Hickman’s "Pax Romana" is a really poor work, and even poorer is Gaiman’s 1602.

 

Maybe the most right word you used is "revered": Thomas LOVED these characters, the recent writers… well, honestly I don’t know what they love. :(

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travisbickle21

travisbickle21

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Thats a very interesting interpreration of Hickman's work. Hatfield's book on Kirby's work referred to the technological sublime -- its combination of terror and awe. I think at its geart, the Galactus triligy sums it up perfectly. I remember getting that feeling reading FF 50 as a ten year old. Johnny turning to Reed saying "we're just ants." Amazing stuff, man! Hickman's arc eventually builds up to a kind of awe. It comes pretty close in tone, if it fails to make that pit,h. Maybe i'm being lenient after suffering through so many mediocre creative runs that arent even close.

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vaillant

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Honestly, I prefer creative mediocrity (like the one we experienced for a long time under the Englehart/DeFalco etc. second tenure before Simonson), than a tenure which substantially mystifies the spirit of the characters.

 

There’s a most important element in Hickman’s run than is missing, and that Kirby got plenty, and simply put that’s: fear of God (the english term does not do justice to the teological meaning, in italian we have two terms, because of course it’s not "fear" in the negative sense of the word).

Here I am not saying a writer which has had no experience of God in his life cannot write great comics: Steve Gerber was an agnostic and handled with the highest respect characters created by such different creators like Lee/Kirby or Grant Morrison, without mistifying them. It just takes respect for the character, and for all that the character represented for the previous generations of readers.

 

Neil Gaiman and many modern writers do the opposite: they subdue characters to personal ideologic "crusades", dressed up as comic art: that is the poorest thing I can imagine, a lot more worse if than they were writing uninformed essays on the topics they are obsessed with.

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travisbickle21

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I cannot say I agree completely but what you have to say is very very compelling. I do agree that it is to the writer's detriment to use characters as mouthpieces to espouse their personal beliefs. It's not always a negative thing, depending on the context of the story -- in certain cases, it may be a necessity. However, often, its just incredibly clumsy.

 

A much more mature storyteller will have the behavior of the characters within the confines of the story tell his point of view. All the characters will have to do is be themselves and speak in their own voices. Some of what made the Lee/Kirby FF run so incredible is that the stories and characters did just that. If anything, one can make the case that the one character who spoke in two voices would be the Thing. His dialogue was simultaneously Ben Grimm and the point of entry for the reader, keeping the adventures grounded and breathing a healthy amount of absurd awareness. It permitted the reader to take the stories just seriously enough.

 

It was just a damn fun book, and incredibly interesting. That's a very tough blend, and no creative team is going to match the imagination and creativity of Jack's stories or Stan's sharp wit.

 

And yes,Waid and Hickman get Doom wrong for different reasons. But Hickman's interpretations I can live with, if only because it led to interesting places. I give him credit for getting Reed right, generally.

 

Check out DeFalco's "Comic Creators on Fantastic Four." The interviews are great. Waid had no handle whatsoever on Ben Grimm. If you don't get Ben Grimm, then you don't get the book.

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travisbickle21

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:bump:

 

Thread closes at midnight

 

Recap:

 

FF 52 4.0 unrestored Signed by Lee and Sinnott now $300 (shipping and insurance included)

 

ASM 50 5.5 unrestored Signed by Lee and Romita Sr. now $400 (shipping and insurance included)

 

ASM 40 4.0 unrestored Signed by Lee and Romita Sr. now $300 (shipping and insurance included)

 

TOS 48 4.0 unrestored Signed by Lee, Lieber and Ayers now $400 (shipping and insurance included)

 

FF 52 6.5 Restored Slight A Signed by Lee and Sinnott now $245 (shipping and insurance included)

 

FF 112 6.0 Restored Slight A Signed by Lee and Sinnott now $165 (shipping and insurance included)

 

Free shipping and insurance for Domestic only

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