Pebbling - pressing's next enemy that's easily fixed by pressing!

[THE_BEYONDER]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

[mschmidt]

Not that difficult a concept to get your head around, unless you're being willfully ignorant.

 

If pebbling is evident, it's a visual distraction, the result of a poorly executed press. Grade will be commensurate with the appearance (grade the book as it sits in front of you)

 

However, a book that has been pressed poorly, such that it exhibits pebbling, can be pressed in a proper manner, such that the pebbling effect can be removed from the paper surface. Which should then result in a higher grade (grading the book as it sits in front of you.)

 

I'm more interested in seeing if a slightly shrunken-cover book can be amended with a further pressing, to have an appearance equivalent to the pre-shrunken state. I've read opinions pro and con on the possibility of this, but haven't seen any high-profile examples of before, after, and after-after.

"Willfully ignorant". Now there's an interesting concept.

 

All I'm saying is if a known attribute of paper can be considered and applied when assessing a book for pressing, it can likewise be considered and applied when 'grading'. To confine 'Grade' to 'sits in front of you' is a conscious choice, an application of "willful ignorance". Yes?

 

As ze-man said, you might try to assign the exact same grades to a "perfect" book, and an otherwise identical condition book, but with two ncb finger dents in the cover that "should" press out, but in so doing you can't say for sure (it's an educated guess) that the ncb dents will press out, and the books will both be worthy of the same "perfect" grade (let's say they're two 9.9's) without actually first pressing the one with the ncb dents, to see what happens.

I was saying "considered and applied", never said "exact same grade".

 

I'm saying a grader could be "neutral" and leave the "eye of the beholder" stuff mainly to, well, the beholders. If an area of paper isn't frayed, fibers broken, torn, chipped, cracked, or scuffed then it is what it is. An accurate assessment will reflect that.

Leave "ugly" more up to the owner or future owners, and grade to the reality as it is.

 

 

But that's the exact opposite of what you've been saying so far.

 

You want the graders to grade a book and ignore certain, possibly-fixable defects that they see. Which is nuts. The graders should grade the book that's in front of them, based on the current condition said book is in - nothing more, nothing less. That's both accurate and "graded to the reality", whatever that means.

It's not the opposite of what I've been saying and I never said I want graders to ignore anything.

 

Let me ask you...

How hard should a professional assessor slam a book for being pebbled? Hard, like the paper is actually damaged, permanent and forever defective? Is that the reality he's facing? Or is he seeing paper in a state that paper can handle without being permanently damaged at all?

 

If you see an 8.5 leap to 9.4 after pressing, you're saying the 8.5 designation and its 9.4 incarnation were both accurate assessments of the book assembly? How can that be? Pressing can only impact what was there already, what exists before treatment is applied, only make it flatter.

 

No, that was exactly what you were saying - that if a book has pressable defects the graders should ignore those pressable defects when they grade the book.

 

Which, again, is nuts.

 

Graders should grade the book that is in front of them, in the current condition that it is in, with no regard for its previous history or whether any defects can be removed or not - that's it, really.

 

[divad]

So, defects from pressing can be detected, but it's not possible to determine if a comic has been pressed?

 

Do I have that right?

 

Got that right . . .

[Hammerhead]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

[divad]

Does CGC trademark all these terms?

 

They're waffling on it . . .

[divad]

NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

Utterly.

 

[Davenport]

No, that was exactly what you were saying - that if a book has pressable defects the graders should ignore those pressable defects when they grade the book.

 

Which, again, is nuts.

 

Graders should grade the book that is in front of them, in the current condition that it is in, with no regard for its previous history or whether any defects can be removed or not - that's it, really.

I said that? Really? Wow. I agree that's pretty nutty for me to say.

 

Why would someone want an assessor to ignore anything about what they're hired to inspect (including the attributes of the material it's made of)?

Unless, maybe, what was ignored could be used to advantage somehow. Which is what I thought I was saying.

 

My bad.

 

 

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

 

 

Exactly. To suggest that CGC graders don't know what defects are/are not pressable is laughable at this point. If the 'defect/damage' is easily reversible.....ease off the hammer a bit.

[originalisbest]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

 

 

Exactly. To suggest that CGC graders don't know what defects are/are not pressable is laughable at this point. If the 'defect/damage' is easily reversible.....ease off the hammer a bit.

 

, very good, very good indeed. If I have any books for sale that exhibit NCB, little, friendly, light-reflecting dimples from well-meaning fingers through the years on the cover, no need to have it pressed from VF- (let's say) up to (perhaps, it's a guess until you do) a 9.2 or 9.4 -- I can just offer it for sale to Beyonder, or Davenport (or anyone who thinks that if something is correctable with a press, it shouldn't factor into the grade) as a straight-up 9.4 as is, at an appropriately 9.4 price level!

 

Because, after all, one shouldn't discount for NCB, or other pressable flaws, they're harmless really, and shouldn't distract anyone who truly appreciates a book -- I think this is a good step forward for sure. Plus think of all the pressing fees sellers can now save on!

 

Win-win, as they say.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

 

 

Exactly. To suggest that CGC graders don't know what defects are/are not pressable is laughable at this point. If the 'defect/damage' is easily reversible.....ease off the hammer a bit.

 

That is a direct conflict of interest now.

[slym2none]

I'm in a pressing thread!

Yeah, it's become that, hasn't it?

 

Frak pebbling and the broken down dry-mount it rode in on. Who gives a .

 

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

I'm trying to find a situation where it would be the NCB'er that is the impetus to drop a book from 9.2 to 8.5...

 

 

 

 

-slym

[THE_BEYONDER]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

 

 

Exactly. To suggest that CGC graders don't know what defects are/are not pressable is laughable at this point. If the 'defect/damage' is easily reversible.....ease off the hammer a bit.

 

, very good, very good indeed. If I have any books for sale that exhibit NCB, little, friendly, light-reflecting dimples from well-meaning fingers through the years on the cover, no need to have it pressed from VF- (let's say) up to (perhaps, it's a guess until you do) a 9.2 or 9.4 -- I can just offer it for sale to Beyonder, or Davenport (or anyone who thinks that if something is correctable with a press, it shouldn't factor into the grade) as a straight-up 9.4 as is, at an appropriately 9.4 price level!

 

Because, after all, one shouldn't discount for NCB, or other pressable flaws, they're harmless really, and shouldn't distract anyone who truly appreciates a book -- I think this is a good step forward for sure. Plus think of all the pressing fees sellers can now save on!

 

Win-win, as they say.

 

Quite the flare for the dramatic.

 

All of this mind-numbing discussion would come to a complete halt if CGC would just address the elephant in the room. Just be completely honest. Be straight-forward. Cut the shananigans.....

 

Just admit that pressing is a form of restoration.

 

 

 

 

 

[mschmidt]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

 

 

Exactly. To suggest that CGC graders don't know what defects are/are not pressable is laughable at this point. If the 'defect/damage' is easily reversible.....ease off the hammer a bit.

 

, very good, very good indeed. If I have any books for sale that exhibit NCB, little, friendly, light-reflecting dimples from well-meaning fingers through the years on the cover, no need to have it pressed from VF- (let's say) up to (perhaps, it's a guess until you do) a 9.2 or 9.4 -- I can just offer it for sale to Beyonder, or Davenport (or anyone who thinks that if something is correctable with a press, it shouldn't factor into the grade) as a straight-up 9.4 as is, at an appropriately 9.4 price level!

 

Because, after all, one shouldn't discount for NCB, or other pressable flaws, they're harmless really, and shouldn't distract anyone who truly appreciates a book -- I think this is a good step forward for sure. Plus think of all the pressing fees sellers can now save on!

 

Win-win, as they say.

 

Quite the flare for the dramatic.

 

All of this mind-numbing discussion would come to a complete halt if CGC would just address the elephant in the room. Just be completely honest. Be straight-forward. Cut the shananigans.....

 

Just admit that pressing is a form of restoration.

 

That's about as likely as you admitting it's not ::

[THE_BEYONDER]

[VintageComics]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

 

 

Exactly. To suggest that CGC graders don't know what defects are/are not pressable is laughable at this point. If the 'defect/damage' is easily reversible.....ease off the hammer a bit.

 

CGC doesn't and never has hammered grades for non colourbreaking wear.

 

Small ncb wear may not even affect the grade unless the book is in higher grades and small, medium or heavy ncb wear is graded appropriately.

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

CGC doesn't and never has hammered grades for non colourbreaking wear.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

The pro-pressing camp has always side-stepped the question of degree. NCB creases get hammered by CGC. CGC considers them a big deal when grading the book, but somehow it's no big deal to remove them. Complete nonsense.

 

If an otherwise NM book drops to a VF because of a NCB.....how can the process of removing that crease not be considered restoration?

 

 

 

Yup, I think if the defect/damage can easily be removed with a press then it shouldn't effect the grade all that much. That sounds reasonable.

 

Example: A 9.2 book with 2 small NCB creases pressed would then get 9.4....

 

 

Exactly. To suggest that CGC graders don't know what defects are/are not pressable is laughable at this point. If the 'defect/damage' is easily reversible.....ease off the hammer a bit.

 

CGC doesn't and never has hammered grades for non colourbreaking wear.

 

Small ncb wear may not even affect the grade unless the book is in higher grades and small, medium or heavy ncb wear is graded appropriately.

 

 

Sorry Roy, from my CGC submission experience I completely disagree with you. I still remember my original owner pedigree key having a couple NCB spine creases and a light fold getting a 9.2. A light press got it to 9.6. After selling it, the new owner gave it an uber press to a 9.8 . That's 9.2 - 9.8 for pressable defects. This game is rigged.

[originalisbest]

Not a game, not rigged. The book is what it is. CGC says it looks better without NCB creases. Market seems to agree. ANYBODY WILLING TO PAY FOR A PROFESSIONAL PRESS has the "ability" to see if a 9.2 can "become" a 9.8. There is no secrecy, nor barrier to entry, other than the cost, and trust placed in the presser. Like anything, there is no guarantee, stuff can and does happen unintended -- like shrinkage, or cockling, or rippling. Hopefully, not too much, but it can. And that's life.