PayPal fees

[Rickdogg]

Jordanabigail would love to see this!

[COI]

You have a right to your opinion, but let me ask you something:

 

Why is it not ok to slam an obvious scam artist like the Australian guy, but it's fine to slam Paypal? Sort of a double standard, and a little hypocritical, don't you think? If you have a personal story about paypal, I'll retract my statement. But if you're bashing them for some other reason, you're doing the same thing you criticized rickdogg and others for.

[Joanna]

Andrew, she slammed Rickdog and the others with less information than they had about the Australian seller. I wonder if Lisa is from Australia and has a stolen scan she wants to sell?

[Rickdogg]

Exactly

[greggy]

Lisa only accepts wire transfers!

[Rickdogg]

Here's a link to an old thread about the same seller.

 

Old Thread

 

Troika is the supposed "buyer." I have a feeling that our litlle scammer boy is in the states.

[supapimp]

please forgive me, but i thought lisa rather fancied it in the arse?

[FlComicFan]

I have a personal story, they held $3300+ in my account hostage for two weeks. Dont ever let more than a little bit sit in your account. They will screw up something and when you need it fixed best of luck getting a live person to take care of it. Paypal is convenient and will get you more business so I live with the risks but they can and do screw up

[BronzeBruce13]

At least you had your account released...

many others are not so lucky. I know 2.

 

To Protect Yourself More Effectively.... IMHO, the BEST thing to do... is to have additional account(s) at the same bank and have the ability to transfer money (when it reaches uncomfortable levels for the individual) not only out of PP Balance, but also out of the account itself that is linked to your Paypal account (especialy on larger deals). Most likely your account is not an earlier one (prior to Oct 11, 2001) and as such you gave PP the right to obtain funds from your Bank Account directly if they deem you responsible or "wrong" in a dispute (see below). Better to have the money unavailable and sort it out later. If you've followed the rules (or have been scammed) you should expect to be covered/protected. It seems that this does not always happen as the party with the available cash may be more vulnerable than they expect .

 

Here's some exerpts from portions of Paypal's User Agreement. The highlited text reveals important points to be aware of about Paypal and chargebacks...

 

 

Filing a Claim. If you pay a seller who does not ship the promised goods, you should first contact the seller and attempt to resolve the dispute. If you are unable to resolve the dispute in this manner, you should then file a Buyer Complaint Form with PayPal as soon as possible. The Buyer Complaint Form may be found by going to the "Security Center" link in the footer of any page on the PayPal website.

 

PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller does not present appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund or other evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller. PayPal may also limit the seller's access to his or her PayPal account. You will be entitled to the return of any and all funds PayPal is able to collect from the seller for funds received by PayPal prior to the seller's account status having been changed to limited access. RECOVERY OF YOUR CLAIM IS NOT GUARANTEED.

 

Credit Card Transactions. The Buyer Protection Policy does not replace or reduce any other consumer rights Users may have, including reversal rights that may be granted by a User's credit card issuer. PayPal is the merchant of record with respect to all credit card transactions made through the PayPal service to purchase goods or services. As such, we afford customers the rights and privileges expected of a credit card transaction. You acknowledge that PayPal does not control the outcome of any reversal decision initiated through a User's credit card issuer.

 

PayPal encourages all buyer purchase disputes to be filed and resolved through the PayPal dispute resolution process. PayPal reserves the right to terminate or limit account access privileges of buyers in any of the following cases: abuse by a buyer of the reversal process provided by the buyer's issuing bank; filing a chargeback against an unauthorized transaction; consistent failure to pursue PayPal's Buyer Complaint Process before pursuing any alternate reversal process provided by the buyer's issuing bank. If a reversal claim is initiated, whether as a result of a dispute or for any other reason, the parties agree to provide to any requesting party on a timely basis any and all necessary documentation to resolve any reversal or dispute. PayPal DOES NOT act as the agent of either party in any transaction or resulting dispute, though PayPal does control the outcome of disputes initiated through the Service's dispute resolution process.

 

Receipt of Payments; Risk of Reversal of Transactions; Collection of Funds you owe PayPal. When you receive a payment through the Service, unless you follow the steps necessary to qualify for our Seller Protection Policy described in Part VII of this User Agreement, you are not protected against a subsequent reversal of the transaction. In the event that the sender's transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. Examples of such a reversal include, but are not limited to, a credit card reversal by the sender of the payment, and a reversal of the transaction because the sender of the payment was using a stolen credit card or unauthorized bank account. PayPal will seek to recover the funds from you by debiting your PayPal balance and, if there are not sufficient funds in your PayPal balance, PayPal reserves the right to collect your debt to PayPal by any other legal means. If you open a Premier or Business Account after October 11, 2001, you authorize PayPal to debit your bank account linked to that PayPal account for the amount that you owe PayPal on transactions which were not covered by the Seller Protection Policy and which were not recoverable from your PayPal balance.

OUUUCH!!

 

 

 

Translation: We want you to let us try and get your money back if you've been ripped off, but if we can't.."oh well" thanks for using PayPal Dispute Resolution Process instead of a chargeback that we would be responsible for (in most cases) if we could not collect from the fraudulent party.

 

Be Smart: Use PP via a CC when buying large ticket items. Ever wonder why you get the prompts not to use your CC? "You'll get into debt" (we hold the bag).. blah blah.. "it's easier from your bank account" (you're holding the bag). Ever notice how you sometimes get the random switch to your bank account to pay when you use the CC almost exclusively? computer glitch? or clever way of getting an addition percentage of accidental payments from ones' bank account. You have little recourse as a buyer if you pay with PP Balance or from Bank Funds.. you can't reverse them and can only rely on PP to "try" and recover with "No Gurantee". I don't believe they make the type of effort you would feel good about anyway... it's not their [!@#%^&^] at that point. Use a CC and have a chargeback option as security.

 

 

Paypal is a useful service and I would not buy expensive items without using it or a CC directly...but understand they do not want to pay out or be left holding the bag in a dispute, especially one that involves a chargeback in which they have little power and are often financially responsible. Naturally, they are always looking for ways to limit their exposure as any business would... be smart, use it but be very cautious in how you use it and how much money you leave vulnerable in your accounts they have access to.

[BronzeBruce13]

bump... just want more people to get a chance to inform themselves

[OldGuy]

Paypal is a great tool as long as one keeps in mind that it's run by tools.

 

Just like it's recommended to drive defensively, it's also good to Papal defensively. I never keep a balance and the bank account my Paypal account points to has 27 cents in it...........from the 5 cent and 22 cent deposit Paypal made so I could validate my account. The only money they'll ever get from me was theirs to start with.

[drbanner]

Thanks BB...I know you explained all this to me on the phone before, but these real-world examples and concise details help. I'm going to open a second checking account asap.

 

That all said, I guess I'm lucky in that I've not had a problem with anyone using Paypal. I also use my PP "debit" card for things like groceries and gas in order to get the 1.5% cash back, thereby reducing my nominal PP fees to around 0.7-8% (note that you don't get this when you simply use PP balance funds to pay for an auction). But, like you said, I am putting myself at some risk by leaving the funds in there. Also, since I had to open a premiere/business account, I'm not even sure they'll let me use my cc. So again, like you suggest, I think I need to open another PP "personal" account for payment purposes.

 

Keep up the good work!

[Bugaboo-migration]

I've got my paypal account linked with my regular bank account with all my money in it.

 

Does anyone know.......if I open up a new bank account and update my paypal account to point to the new one.....will that make my old account.... (the one that's linked to it now)........safe from them??.......or will they have the ability to pull money out of any account that's been linked to them in the past?

[OldGuy]

Once you add the new account you will need to make it the primary and then you can delete the old one. Just don't forget to delete the old one, that's the only way they can retain that info.

[BronzeBruce13]

Paypal is making some changes...

 

Yesterday they refused a free-spending client of mine whose account in good standing to make a instant bank transfer of $2400 to my personal account. 10 minutes earlier, i did receive a payment over $1K with no problem the same way. Both he and I were on the phone with PP support and received conflicitng answers and then the third time he called... they told him :

 

"because paypal did not make any fees on bank to bank transfers, they will now be reviewed on a case by case basis... We can offer an E-check (which is OK, but slower) instead"

 

There was not suposed to be any limitations on transfers from account to account. Of course, if my customer wanted to send the $ from his bank to my premiere account (which would be charged 2.8%)... now that would be A-OK.

 

Long story short... let's delay some instant transactions in hopes that some will be pressed enough for time that they will opt for a transfer that we make fees on

[drbanner]

I did notice a lot of "...at, or subject to, Paypal's discretion..." in their latest user's agreement. I guess now we know what they mean!

[BronzeBruce13]

Always a new speedbump to encounter.

This one's not as bad since there is still the slower E-check option... but there will be instances where this will cause problems. I figured a way around it though. I think the $2K+ payment was the red flag... since there are no fees... next time (if time is a factor)

I'll have the person send 2-3 installments a couple hours apart. Like I said the $1K payment went through fine... that's my hunch... I'll test it out.

 

 

[Rickdogg]

Since ebay is now the papa of paypal, they are going to rake in alll the fees that they can get! Come on...it's ebay!!! We all know that they care about the $$$$ more than anything

[supapimp]

now only if i owned stock in eBay since the day it went public.

[BronzeBruce13]

Paypal (pre-Ebay) was not any less greedy or sneaky...

 

I have not seen much of an Ebay influence YET...

my fear is that Ebay will have leverage over Ebay sellers and buyers who chargeback against Paypal. If they suffer a loss, maybe your Ebay account will be more vulnerable to a suspension. Maybe the will have a "get rid of status" for anyone that has cost them and are likely to do it again. Good financial move to get rid of "high risk" chargeback candidates, especially if you do it twice.

 

The NEW User Agreement seems to want to "encourage" you to use PP's Dispute Resolution Services even more... BEFORE (and still hopefully instead of) seeking immediate resolution directly from your credit card company. PP essentially threatens to suspend or discontinue your account if you don't go through them first ( although it suggests repeat offenders are more at risk). This may be a smokescreen to delay your chargingback a CC payment and allow them more time (without warning) to "try" and seize money from the seller's balance or bank account before the CC company reverses the charge leaving PP holding the bag. Once a CC company is involved and PP has to go after the funds themselves (or lose them)... I assume that they have reduced odds of collecting as they were not notified first, leaving time for a "scammer" or legitimate, "on the ball" seller to withdraw the funds before they can seize them. Makes sense for Paypal to want to have the drop on potentially seizing funds before the alarm has been sounded.

 

Maybe some of these speculations are off a bit, but I'm very skeptical and assume their actions are for their own security first, not the customers.