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Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

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me especially for copies that have been kept in pristine condition for only 50 years. If the treatment results in a drastic shrinkage to the paper, logically you would think that trying to identify a trim might be harder as your no longer looking at a fresh cut anymore.

 

Go into more detail, as that doesn't seem logical to me. What seems logical is that the edge will be the same as it was.

 

 

Also, does anyone recall how dust shadow's can be minimized that would allow the book to still sit in a blue label post treatment? I thought an aqueous wash would be used but that would usually make it detectable and would result in a PLOD? Just curious as a lot of these upgraded books look like they are being handled by professional resto people who may have new techniques, odourless solvents that may be passing through detection.

 

I think a dry cleaning works, which is why CGC barely downgrades for it. I've seen dust shadows on 9.6 books.

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Well the examples shown appear to be more on the "drastic" side of the equation and I don't subscribe to the shrinking natural over time, sounds like a load of bs to me especially for copies that have been kept in pristine condition for only 50 years.

 

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about?

 

The Air Boy?

Costanza books?

 

If the treatment results in a drastic shrinkage to the paper, logically you would think that trying to identify a trim might be harder as your no longer looking at a fresh cut anymore.

 

Drastic shrinkage is still a relatively small percentage (F_F, maybe you have a % number in mind?)

 

It doesn't change anything except for size as far as I know.

 

 

Also, does anyone recall how dust shadow's can be minimized that would allow the book to still sit in a blue label post treatment? I thought an aqueous wash would be used but that would usually make it detectable and would result in a PLOD?

 

On some books, dust shadows can often just be wiped off with a kleenex or a tissue. I've had attic find books where just wiping the dust shadow off minimizes and sometimes eliminated it entirely.

 

Dry cleanings as well (as stated by F_F)

 

I could be wrong but isn't dust water soluble but not solvent soluble? If that's the case, solvents wouldn't help in that regard.

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Well a fresh cut/trim might be a lot easier to spot than one that has been heat treated to the point where the fibers change [shrink] making it less obvious? (shrug)

 

A 2% less obvious trim should still be obvious...any trim that was so close to the line shouldn't be called a trim in the first place.

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Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

What "twist" are you talking about?

 

 

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

He's talking about the fact that they appear to be shifted up slightly in addition to shrinking. Been pointed out dozens of times in the thread.

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It doesn't change anything except for size as far as I know.

 

 

Roy I'm not sure how you can make such a statement and then completely discount the notion that it couldn't change the appearance of a trim job? I don't want to get off topic but if the paper changes in size wouldn't that effect the appearance or texture of the same paper that was just freshly trimmed?

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Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

What "twist" are you talking about?

 

 

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

Yes, it's like the cover gets twisted ever so slightly counter clockwise making the top edge overhang and I am sure stressing the staples.

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Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

What "twist" are you talking about?

 

 

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

That's a discussion that I've been having with lots of collectors for years now with no concrete answers. That fanning effect is one thing that nobody has been able to explain.

 

I remember talking about it, specifically that fanning, in detail with Dice, Ze-man and a few others in the Resto forum a few years ago. It's prevalent on Pedigree copies, unpressed copies, pressed copies, etc. and nobody could explain why the top of the book stuck out more than the bottom of the book after all 3 sides were trimmed flush at the publication plant.

 

The only conclusion that I remember coming to was maybe the top and bottom of the book changed shape at different rates for whatever reason.

 

 

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Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

What "twist" are you talking about?

 

 

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

Yes, it's like the cover gets twisted ever so slightly counter clockwise making the top edge overhang and I am sure stressing the staples.

 

Are you assuming the cover is twisting because there is more overhang?

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Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

What "twist" are you talking about?

 

 

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

That's a discussion that I've been having with lots of collectors for years now with no concrete answers. That fanning effect is one thing that nobody has been able to explain.

 

I remember talking about it, specifically that fanning, in detail with Dice, Ze-man and a few others in the Resto forum a few years ago. It's prevalent on Pedigree copies, unpressed copies, pressed copies, etc. and nobody could explain why the top of the book stuck out more than the bottom of the book after all 3 sides were trimmed flush at the publication plant.

 

The only conclusion that I remember coming to was maybe the top and bottom of the book changed shape at different rates for whatever reason.

 

 

Well to me its pretty clear that the fanned pages in a lot of the examples provided have been helped along by the recent pressing [and in some cases it appears to be intentional]. We have before and after scans so why is there so much confusion about this point?

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Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

What "twist" are you talking about?

 

 

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

Yes, it's like the cover gets twisted ever so slightly counter clockwise making the top edge overhang and I am sure stressing the staples.

 

Are you assuming the cover is twisting because there is more overhang?

 

Yes Sir. Judging from all the before and after scans.

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Well to me its pretty clear that the fanned pages in a lot of the examples provided have been helped along by the recent pressing [and in some cases it appears to be intentional].

 

OK, first off, we're talking about different things. You said he was talking about fanned pages when he mentioned the word 'twist'. This is what he says he was talking about.

 

Yes, it's like the cover gets twisted ever so slightly counter clockwise making the top edge overhang and I am sure stressing the staples.

 

So he was specifically talking about the cover appearing twisted.

 

We have before and after scans so why is there so much confusion about this point?

 

Yes, but even in the before scans most books have the top edges of the pages sticking out more than the bottom edges.

 

We also see this on books that were not pressed.

 

This is what I was talking about.

 

 

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Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

What "twist" are you talking about?

 

 

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

Yes, it's like the cover gets twisted ever so slightly counter clockwise making the top edge overhang and I am sure stressing the staples.

 

Are you assuming the cover is twisting because there is more overhang?

 

Yes Sir. Judging from all the before and after scans.

 

Gotcha.

 

What I personally think happens (and I think this theory has a lot of support as has been discussed in detail) is that the clay / pulp mixture of the cover paper causes it to shrink laterally (so the right edge moves closer to the spine by a very small amount) and the cover expands vertically or longitudinally so that the overhang increases in size by a small amount.

 

The reason the cover reacts differently than the interior pages is because the interior pages have no clay content and have different paper fibers.

 

The cover doesn't actually move, it simply changes shape.

 

 

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Could the "twist" be just because the placement of the staples and staple holes at production are not exactly dead center and whatever pressing technique is being used on these Schave books just helped make it look worse?

 

I've seen poorly pressed books 'twist' but when a book is truly twisted, it twists on it's axis and the pages are fanned one way when looked at from the front (meaning fanning out at the top) and the other way when looked from the back (fanning out at the bottom) the way a deck of cards looks when you twist it.

 

8953324-twisted-a-deck-of-cards-on-green-background.jpg

 

 

These books are not twisted from what I can see. The front and back covers and pages are symmetrical, or mirror images of each other. If on the front cover the pages are sticking out at the top half then the same thing is happening on the back (pages sticking out at top half).

 

That's not a twist as far as I can see.

 

 

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