Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[fantastic_four]

 

 

It doesn't change anything except for size as far as I know.

 

 

Roy I'm not sure how you can make such a statement and then completely discount the notion that it couldn't change the appearance of a trim job? I don't want to get off topic but if the paper changes in size wouldn't that effect the appearance or texture of the same paper that was just freshly trimmed?

 

You make it sound like the properties of a comic are shifted during shrinkage as much as an etch a sketch drawing is when you shake it. If the physical properties of the comic were changed that much, then I'd expect to see a change in the cover art and other properties of the book as well.

[VintageComics]

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

 

 

 

Don't why you need to roll your eyes.

 

 

How much time?

 

Best educated guess we have now based on what grinin, Dice, myself and a few other have posted is that it begins to happen as soon as the comics are bound I don't know when it stops happening.

 

That's why I tried to determine a few weeks ago in this thread and appealed for pics of old SA comics on the newsstand to see if they had that fanned look or not.

 

 

 

[pickycollector]

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

How is this a fact ? Proof please

[VintageComics]

 

 

It doesn't change anything except for size as far as I know.

 

 

Roy I'm not sure how you can make such a statement and then completely discount the notion that it couldn't change the appearance of a trim job? I don't want to get off topic but if the paper changes in size wouldn't that effect the appearance or texture of the same paper that was just freshly trimmed?

 

You make it sound like the properties of a comic are shifted during shrinkage as much as an etch a sketch drawing is when you shake it. If the physical properties of the comic were changed that much, then I'd expect to see a change in the cover art and other properties of the book as well.

 

I just don't get it.

 

All I said was that the paper changes size which is a factual statement.

 

And the amount it changes (between 1-2%) is incredibly small, and more than likely too small to hide a large change to the paper.

 

And the change happens across the entire cover, not just one edge.

 

 

[Timely]

 

Well the examples shown appear to be more on the "drastic" side of the equation and I don't subscribe to the shrinking natural over time, sounds like a load of bs to me especially for copies that have been kept in pristine condition for only 50 years.

 

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about?

 

The Air Boy?

Costanza books?

 

If the treatment results in a drastic shrinkage to the paper, logically you would think that trying to identify a trim might be harder as your no longer looking at a fresh cut anymore.

 

Drastic shrinkage is still a relatively small percentage (F_F, maybe you have a % number in mind?)

 

It doesn't change anything except for size as far as I know.

 

 

Also, does anyone recall how dust shadow's can be minimized that would allow the book to still sit in a blue label post treatment? I thought an aqueous wash would be used but that would usually make it detectable and would result in a PLOD?

 

On some books, dust shadows can often just be wiped off with a kleenex or a tissue. I've had attic find books where just wiping the dust shadow off minimizes and sometimes eliminated it entirely.

 

Dry cleanings as well (as stated by F_F)

 

I could be wrong but isn't dust water soluble but not solvent soluble? If that's the case, solvents wouldn't help in that regard.

 

When you say, "There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time." what amount of time are you referring to?

[ComicConnoisseur]

It appears more than just a pressing is going on here. These images indicate to me the books were cleaned thoroughly, possibly washed with water or chemicals.

Since CCS informs CGC of EVERY restoration technique they apply to a book so that nothing is missed and everything can be properly documented, would they disclose aqueous washes?

 

What about solvent washes?

 

Dry cleaning?

 

What about loose centerfold or cover tucks?

 

Pressing with disassembly?

 

Staple cleaning?

 

Staple replacement?

 

Married centerfolds or cover?

 

Tear seals?

 

Color touch?

 

Pressing without disassembly?

 

Leaf casting?

 

Where's the line in the sand?

 

Who decides where the line is?

 

Is it ethical to withhold information from the consumer as far as what is known to have been done to the book?

 

Will the Steelers make the playoffs?

The bigger story is not that pressing is bad or pressing is good, but some feel that manipulation has been going on for awhile now. This has led to a feeling of a trust broken.

Once a trust is broken it`s hard to earn back.

[VintageComics]

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

How is this a fact ? Proof please

 

Didn't we just cover this a few weeks ago in detail?

 

The entire book is trimmed on 3 sides after the book is folded.

 

The cuts leave all the edges the same size.

 

The overhang somehow appears on the book after the book was trimmed at the publisher.

 

There are samples of books in the hobby of over hang, peek through and shrinkage at varying rates and sizes available as samples.

 

The only reasonable explanation is that the paper changes size - which paper is clearly known to do.

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

When you say, "There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time." what amount of time are you referring to?

 

As I just answered above:

 

Best educated guess we have now based on what grinin, Dice, myself and a few other have posted is that it begins to happen as soon as the comics are bound but I don't know when it stops happening.

 

That's why I tried to determine a few weeks ago in this thread and appealed for pics of old SA comics on the newsstand to see if they had that fanned look or not.

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

 

 

 

Don't why you need to roll your eyes.

 

 

How much time?

 

Best educated guess we have now based on what grinin, Dice, myself and a few other have posted is that it begins to happen as soon as the comics are bound I don't know when it stops happening.

 

That's why I tried to determine a few weeks ago in this thread and appealed for pics of old SA comics on the newsstand to see if they had that fanned look or not.

 

 

 

I rolled my eyes because bringing up 'natural shrinkage' in the context of this thread is the equivalent of someone bringing up the church books in the context of your average pressing thread.

[pickycollector]

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

How is this a fact ? Proof please

 

Didn't we just cover this a few weeks ago in detail?

 

The entire book is trimmed on 3 sides after the book is folded.

 

The cuts leave all the edges the same size.

 

The overhang somehow appears on the book after the book was trimmed at the publisher.

 

There are samples of books in the hobby of over hang, peek through and shrinkage at varying rates and sizes available as samples.

 

The only reasonable explanation is that the paper changes size - which paper is clearly known to do.

 

Do you have pictures of old Marvels at the time they were sold newstand to compare with their look today ? If yes, please show them and you will prove me wrong. If not, then it is a theory rather than a fact.

 

I could believe in such a theory for very minor overhang and page fanning over a very long period of time, but never at the level of what the Costanzas books display.

[VintageComics]

I rolled my eyes because bringing up 'natural shrinkage' in the context of this thread is the equivalent of someone bringing up the church books in the context of your average pressing thread.

 

As usual, the chip on your shoulder is preventing you from comprehending what I wrote.

 

I initially did not bring up 'natural shrinkage' as a discussion topic. I specifically was replying to the Air Fighters / Air Boy book because people were assuming the cover had shrunken from pressing ala Costanza.

 

See my first 'shrinkage' post below.

 

There genuinely are comics that are miscut from the publisher that way. The cover is miscut before being attached and when attached even though the 3 edges of the book are trimmed after folding, the trimming blade doesn't ever meet with the cover edge because the cover is so short.

 

If it's a GA or an early SA book, and the cover is that short, I'd personally be leaning towards miscut before shrinkage.

 

I won't say it's common but it is out there. CGC used to label them as miscut in the old days when they had more notes on the label.

 

The next time we mention shrinkage it's because Peter (Silver Surfer) is not sure how I can be sure how the cover shrank.

 

I gave 2 examples, natural and drastic to show that one was an extreme example of the other.

 

Here's a thought. Does shrinkage help mask trimming done on a book?

 

It doesn't change the color or cut texture of the edges, no. Those are the only definitive ways I'm aware of to detect a trim.

 

Not sure how we can say a definitive "no" at this point when we don't even know how these covers are being shrunk?

 

I thought it was pretty clear at this point how they shrink.

 

Covers shrink naturally over time based on moisture change of the pulp/clay mixture.

More drastic humidity change cases more drastic shape change.

 

 

You took my post out of context to imply I was trying to make the shrinkage sound natural.

 

Then we went off on a completely tangent with another conversation about how can I be sure covers shrink naturally.

 

Do you see that?

[THE_BEYONDER]

I rolled my eyes because bringing up 'natural shrinkage' in the context of this thread is the equivalent of someone bringing up the church books in the context of your average pressing thread.

 

As usual, the chip on your shoulder is preventing you from comprehending what I wrote.

 

I initially did not bring up 'natural shrinkage' as a discussion topic. I specifically was replying to the Air Fighters / Air Boy book because people were assuming the cover had shrunken from pressing ala Costanza.

 

See my first 'shrinkage' post below.

 

There genuinely are comics that are miscut from the publisher that way. The cover is miscut before being attached and when attached even though the 3 edges of the book are trimmed after folding, the trimming blade doesn't ever meet with the cover edge because the cover is so short.

 

If it's a GA or an early SA book, and the cover is that short, I'd personally be leaning towards miscut before shrinkage.

 

I won't say it's common but it is out there. CGC used to label them as miscut in the old days when they had more notes on the label.

 

The next time we mention shrinkage it's because Peter (Silver Surfer) is not sure how I can be sure how the cover shrank.

 

I gave 2 examples, natural and drastic to show that one was an extreme example of the other.

 

Here's a thought. Does shrinkage help mask trimming done on a book?

 

It doesn't change the color or cut texture of the edges, no. Those are the only definitive ways I'm aware of to detect a trim.

 

Not sure how we can say a definitive "no" at this point when we don't even know how these covers are being shrunk?

 

I thought it was pretty clear at this point how they shrink.

 

Covers shrink naturally over time based on moisture change of the pulp/clay mixture.

More drastic humidity change cases more drastic shape change.

 

 

You took my post out of context to imply I was trying to make the shrinkage sound natural.

 

Then we went off on a completely tangent with another conversation about how can I be sure covers shrink naturally.

 

Do you see that?

 

You've missed the point entirely.

[Silver Surfer]

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

How is this a fact ? Proof please

 

Didn't we just cover this a few weeks ago in detail?

 

The entire book is trimmed on 3 sides after the book is folded.

 

The cuts leave all the edges the same size.

 

The overhang somehow appears on the book after the book was trimmed at the publisher.

 

There are samples of books in the hobby of over hang, peek through and shrinkage at varying rates and sizes available as samples.

 

The only reasonable explanation is that the paper changes size - which paper is clearly known to do.

 

Do you have pictures of old Marvels at the time they were sold newstand to compare with their look today ? If yes, please show them and you will prove me wrong. If not, then it is a theory rather than a fact.

 

I could believe in such a theory for very minor overhang and page fanning over a very long period of time, but never at the level of what the Costanzas books display.

 

Bingo!

[VintageComics]

You've missed the point entirely.

 

No, I didn't. You simply put the focus on the natural portion of the discussion when even I didn't.

 

It was simply meant to facilitate the discussion and explain how the drastic shrinkage happened.

 

No worries.

[Bomber-Bob]

The bigger story is not that pressing is bad or pressing is good, but some feel that manipulation has been going on for awhile now. This has led to a feeling of a trust broken.

Once a trust is broken it`s hard to earn back.

 

I believe we have all been played, especially after reading the article about the coin market. While I believe CGC has a high level of integrity, they are no longer looking out for the hobby's best interest. They have their blinders on, allowing all this manipulation to pass through the system.

[VintageComics]

Do you have pictures of old Marvels at the time they were sold newstand to compare with their look today ? If yes, please show them and you will prove me wrong. If not, then it is a theory rather than a fact.

 

I could believe in such a theory for very minor overhang and page fanning over a very long period of time, but never at the level of what the Costanzas books display.

 

I don't have pictures. That's why I was asking for some.

 

As far as it being fact or not, every single bit of evidence points to covers shrinking after the time of publication. I don't know of one single piece of evidence that contradicts this. If anyone has one, I'd genuinely love to hear it.

 

I could believe in such a theory for very minor overhang and page fanning over a very long period of time, but never at the level of what the Costanzas books display.

 

I never did imply that books that aged naturally could look like Costanza books, although I did wonder if it was possible. At this point, the jury is out IMO.

 

What I did say is that I thought it was quite clear that climate change (humidity specifically) is responsible for the change in cover size and extreme climate change is responsible for the extreme change in cover size.

 

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

The Twist .....

 

[VintageComics]

Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

The Twist .....

 

OK, I thought when you guys refereed to the twist, you were talking about the TOS #40 which looks like the top staple is pulling and twisting the cover..

 

In this case, I think the wraps have simply shrunken to varying degrees and the word 'twist' mistakenly makes me think of an actual mechanical force pulling on the paper causing the book to change shape. Sorry, just the technical technician in me.

 

 

 

 

[Comicopolis]

Certainly a lot of twisting going on in this thread.

 

Maybe Chuck Berry zapped those books.

[VintageComics]

Certainly a lot of twisting going on in this thread.

 

It's tough to have a straight forward conversation with a group of people when everyone is talking about something different.