Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[slym2none]

So, now pressers need to dry their books out under tension to prevent this peekthrough from getting worse, if it is happening at all?

 

 

 

-slym

[namisgr]

No. Pressers need to 'dial it back a bit', as Mr. Bedrock put it, and use a wee bit less heat and/or humidity responsible for the extreme shrinkage of early SA Marvels.

[Bomber-Bob]

That said, I always assumed the majority of dimensional change occurred after removal from the press, as the paper normalized to atmospheric humidity/temperature, over the course of a couple days.

It would be unlikely for a press operator, whose task is only to press books and then send them on down line to the next person, to catch his mistake.

 

Interesting thought. Most of the Shave books were probably Walkthru, which means the books were hot off the press delivered to the graders and encapsulated. The graders did not see the shrinkage while the books were still warm. The books shrunk while cooling down inside the slab. That explains everything.

[mysterio]

That said, I always assumed the majority of dimensional change occurred after removal from the press, as the paper normalized to atmospheric humidity/temperature, over the course of a couple days.

It would be unlikely for a press operator, whose task is only to press books and then send them on down line to the next person, to catch his mistake.

 

Interesting thought. Most of the Shave books were probably Walkthru, which means the books were hot off the press delivered to the graders and encapsulated. The graders did not see the shrinkage while the books were still warm. The books shrunk while cooling down inside the slab. That explains everything.

 

I've wondered if it could be something like that myself. It would explain a lot for the Costanzas, but doesn't do anything to explain bumps for RSRs.

[slym2none]

No. Pressers need to 'dial it back a bit', as Mr. Bedrock put it, and use a wee bit less heat and/or humidity responsible for the extreme shrinkage of early SA Marvels.

 

Pardons, it seems I didn't put enough sarcasm in that post.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[joeypost]

That said, I always assumed the majority of dimensional change occurred after removal from the press, as the paper normalized to atmospheric humidity/temperature, over the course of a couple days.

It would be unlikely for a press operator, whose task is only to press books and then send them on down line to the next person, to catch his mistake.

 

Interesting thought. Most of the Shave books were probably Walkthru, which means the books were hot off the press delivered to the graders and encapsulated. The graders did not see the shrinkage while the books were still warm. The books shrunk while cooling down inside the slab. That explains everything.

I doubt the books were handed of to the graders warm.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

So, now pressers need to dry their books out under tension to prevent this peekthrough from getting worse, if it is happening at all?

 

 

 

-slym

I assume many pressers put their books in a cold press immediately after coming out of the hot press anyway. But I am with Bob on the greater likelihood that the damage was caused by too much H20/Temp/Time in the hot press than too little time in a cold press afterward.

[Bomber-Bob]

That said, I always assumed the majority of dimensional change occurred after removal from the press, as the paper normalized to atmospheric humidity/temperature, over the course of a couple days.

It would be unlikely for a press operator, whose task is only to press books and then send them on down line to the next person, to catch his mistake.

 

Interesting thought. Most of the Shave books were probably Walkthru, which means the books were hot off the press delivered to the graders and encapsulated. The graders did not see the shrinkage while the books were still warm. The books shrunk while cooling down inside the slab. That explains everything.

I doubt the books were handed of to the graders warm.

 

I agree, just tongue in cheek comments. With everyone trying to explain what may have caused this I wanted to throw out something ridiculous.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

That said, I always assumed the majority of dimensional change occurred after removal from the press, as the paper normalized to atmospheric humidity/temperature, over the course of a couple days.

It would be unlikely for a press operator, whose task is only to press books and then send them on down line to the next person, to catch his mistake.

 

Interesting thought. Most of the Shave books were probably Walkthru, which means the books were hot off the press delivered to the graders and encapsulated. The graders did not see the shrinkage while the books were still warm. The books shrunk while cooling down inside the slab. That explains everything.

I doubt the books were handed of to the graders warm.

 

I never considered the possibility that the graders received the book shortly after the press. It is highly unlikely that they were still warm as temperature meets equilibrium fairly quickly. Humidity levels are another story.

 

The possibility of books being turned over for grading shortly after pressing raises concerns, as I seem to recall a couple posts that mentioned imperfections are often masked shortly after pressing due to the still changing state of the paper. It was something along the lines of boardie A pointing out some imperfections that actually showed up on a book and thought the seller may have doctored the scans and boardie B stating that it is possible the scans were not doctored at all as the imperfections would not be visible if the scan was taken shortly after a press.

[batman_fan]

That said, I always assumed the majority of dimensional change occurred after removal from the press, as the paper normalized to atmospheric humidity/temperature, over the course of a couple days.

It would be unlikely for a press operator, whose task is only to press books and then send them on down line to the next person, to catch his mistake.

 

Interesting thought. Most of the Shave books were probably Walkthru, which means the books were hot off the press delivered to the graders and encapsulated. The graders did not see the shrinkage while the books were still warm. The books shrunk while cooling down inside the slab. That explains everything.

I doubt the books were handed of to the graders warm.

 

I agree, just tongue in cheek comments. With everyone trying to explain what may have caused this I wanted to throw out something ridiculous.

 

I thought it was pretty well a fact that this is all caused by climate change

 

 

(had to add that since I would be seriously concerned some people would think I was being serious)

[Speedy-D]

That said, I always assumed the majority of dimensional change occurred after removal from the press, as the paper normalized to atmospheric humidity/temperature, over the course of a couple days.

It would be unlikely for a press operator, whose task is only to press books and then send them on down line to the next person, to catch his mistake.

 

Interesting thought. Most of the Shave books were probably Walkthru, which means the books were hot off the press delivered to the graders and encapsulated. The graders did not see the shrinkage while the books were still warm. The books shrunk while cooling down inside the slab. That explains everything.

I doubt the books were handed of to the graders warm.

The comic just rolls off the press right into the CGC case. It gets graded after encapsulation these days, but still within nanoseconds.

[slym2none]

So, now pressers need to dry their books out under tension to prevent this peekthrough from getting worse, if it is happening at all?

 

I assume many pressers put their books in a cold press immediately after coming out of the hot press anyway. But I am with Bob on the greater likelihood that the damage was caused by too much H20/Temp/Time in the hot press than too little time in a cold press afterward.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[joeypost]

So, now pressers need to dry their books out under tension to prevent this peekthrough from getting worse, if it is happening at all?

 

 

 

-slym

I assume many pressers put their books in a cold press immediately after coming out of the hot press anyway. But I am with Bob on the greater likelihood that the damage was caused by too much H20/Temp/Time in the hot press than too little time in a cold press afterward.

 

Some, but not all.

[Bomber-Bob]

So, now pressers need to dry their books out under tension to prevent this peekthrough from getting worse, if it is happening at all?

 

 

 

-slym

I assume many pressers put their books in a cold press immediately after coming out of the hot press anyway. But I am with Bob on the greater likelihood that the damage was caused by too much H20/Temp/Time in the hot press than too little time in a cold press afterward.

 

Some, but not all.

 

Joey, I think you are saying that a cold press is not necessary with a 'normal' press. Correct ?

[joeypost]

So, now pressers need to dry their books out under tension to prevent this peekthrough from getting worse, if it is happening at all?

 

 

 

-slym

I assume many pressers put their books in a cold press immediately after coming out of the hot press anyway. But I am with Bob on the greater likelihood that the damage was caused by too much H20/Temp/Time in the hot press than too little time in a cold press afterward.

 

Some, but not all.

 

Joey, I think you are saying that a cold press is not necessary with a 'normal' press. Correct ?

 

A book should cool in the same environment used to heat it. Anytime you handle a book "hot off the press" you run the risk of doing additional damage.

[skypinkblu]

Your attention please! (Emphasized since nobody listens to me)

 

I work with a guy who lives in Sparta and is going home tonight after work for the weekend.

He knows several people who worked on the bindery lines during the day and is willing to get our questions answered for us.

You guys start a list of questions and bounce it around for a few hours. I'll pick it up and organize it into a coherent list and give it to him.

He'll get the questions answered and bring the list back on Monday night and I'll share his findings with everyone.

 

PS. You're welcome.

 

 

• The printing sequence for comics was assemble cut pages and covers, saddle stitch/staple, fold and trim, correct?
  
• When the comics originally came off the press did the interior pages stick out beyond the right edge of cover with the centerfold sticking out the farthest forming a "v" shape when viewed from the side?
  
• If not, is there any explanation for how this occurred post-production?
  
• Why do the interior pages stick out more at the top right edge and gradually taper to an even match with the cover at the bottom right edge?
  
• Why does the cover extend past the interior pages at the top edge of the comic?
  
• Why does the cover line up evenly with the interior pages all along the bottom edge of the comic?
  
• What is the cause of a trapezoid shaped comic?
  
• Why has no one been fired for picking Ben Affleck to play Batman?
  
• Why did the interior pages of 80 page annuals not have the same "v" shape of the pages?
  
• Why did the interior pages of 80 page annuals not extend beyond the right edge of the cover?
  

 

Thanks! (thumbs u

 

We were swamped at work tonight and didn't get anything going on the list, so we'll shoot for doing it next weekend.

 

 

One of the most interesting/positive things about this thread was the information from Dice, or at least the partial information. His information was contrary to what I had been taought over the years by several knowledgeable people.

 

I see Roy and Richard referencing him, but I've just spent two hours going back through the thread and I don't see where he ever had the time to get a response from his expert.

 

Dice, have you had time yet? Please? I did ask again a few weeks ago. I'm going ot PM him as well in case he got sidetracked

[skypinkblu]

Doc, I don't necessarily see the conflict and as I want to try and address every legitimate issue that is raised can you elaborate on your concern.

 

Let's say the book is submitted to CCS for restoration removal, whatever that might be. The submitter requests that the book then be sent to CGC for grading and it is sent back to the submitter as a restored book. Obviously the submitter would be unsatisfied which is why CCS would attempt again to safely remove whatever restoration remains - at no additional charge. The book would then go back to CGC for regrading - at no additional charge.

 

I suppose under certain circumstances that would be influenced by the amount of time involved in the process as well as the specific book in question it is possible that CGC might know that the book came from CCS.

 

But what would that mean in terms of a potential conflict in your eyes (or anyone else who wishes to weigh in)?

Gotcha. (thumbs u

 

If the book goes from submitter to CCS/CGC and back and forth internally until it gets a blue label, the graders will certainly know the work was done in house (assuming the book doesn't have to "get back in line" for pressing and grading as if it was a fresh submittal).

 

If the graders/Friesen know where the book is coming from, there's a direct COI in that there's financial incentive for them to get that book out of the pipeline with the highest blue label possible asap to save time/money, to promote their internal business, and to increase their revenue since grading fees are based on FMV.

 

More globally, the other questions/points allude to preferential treatment and insider information given to CCS. Of course if the integration of the pressing/resto removal/grading process was not an inherent conflict of interest, there would be no need for your external oversight to begin with!

 

I find this scenario pertinent to bring up in this discussion, and had this exact same thought run through my mind when I first asked Mark about the way certain submissions would be handled between CCS and CGC.

 

I think most people here have resigned to recognizing threads like this are more about managing perceptions and expectations than influencing actual policy and business decisions for CCG.

 

I'm leading in with this point because if the handling of a situation is perceived to be benefiting CCS clients, even if it's limited to the kind of scenario which gets CCS clients at the front of the line when their books need a few more waves of the wand to convince graders it's deserving of a blue label, the part about managing perceptions can turn into an onerous balancing act.

 

Especially when the community has been up in arms about over a dozen books from the same submitter experiencing a grade improvement while their condition appears to have worsened.

 

From what I interpret from these posts, there is an indication of at a minimum an appearance of a "conflict of interest" (and I use quotes because from a business standpoint this doesn't exist under the circumstances, it is a policy/perception issue with potential customers) or an outright existing conflict of interest based on unethical practices.

 

I am, I trust understandably, eliminating the latter without any evidence of proof from anyone that any CGC employee is unethically granting grades or restoration decisions, i.e., lack thereof, that are undeserved.

 

But on the other aspect let me turn this around to you both - what would you (or anyone who would like to weigh in please) have done by CCG/CGC/CCS in the scenario we are discussing to eliminate your concerns of a "conflict of interest"?

 

Besides, of course, shutting down or selling CCS or whatever other action would remove CCS from the parent umbrella or CGC sister relationship, which obviously is not an option.

 

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

[Kreton]

Doc, I don't necessarily see the conflict and as I want to try and address every legitimate issue that is raised can you elaborate on your concern.

 

Let's say the book is submitted to CCS for restoration removal, whatever that might be. The submitter requests that the book then be sent to CGC for grading and it is sent back to the submitter as a restored book. Obviously the submitter would be unsatisfied which is why CCS would attempt again to safely remove whatever restoration remains - at no additional charge. The book would then go back to CGC for regrading - at no additional charge.

 

I suppose under certain circumstances that would be influenced by the amount of time involved in the process as well as the specific book in question it is possible that CGC might know that the book came from CCS.

 

But what would that mean in terms of a potential conflict in your eyes (or anyone else who wishes to weigh in)?

Gotcha. (thumbs u

 

If the book goes from submitter to CCS/CGC and back and forth internally until it gets a blue label, the graders will certainly know the work was done in house (assuming the book doesn't have to "get back in line" for pressing and grading as if it was a fresh submittal).

 

If the graders/Friesen know where the book is coming from, there's a direct COI in that there's financial incentive for them to get that book out of the pipeline with the highest blue label possible asap to save time/money, to promote their internal business, and to increase their revenue since grading fees are based on FMV.

 

More globally, the other questions/points allude to preferential treatment and insider information given to CCS. Of course if the integration of the pressing/resto removal/grading process was not an inherent conflict of interest, there would be no need for your external oversight to begin with!

 

I find this scenario pertinent to bring up in this discussion, and had this exact same thought run through my mind when I first asked Mark about the way certain submissions would be handled between CCS and CGC.

 

I think most people here have resigned to recognizing threads like this are more about managing perceptions and expectations than influencing actual policy and business decisions for CCG.

 

I'm leading in with this point because if the handling of a situation is perceived to be benefiting CCS clients, even if it's limited to the kind of scenario which gets CCS clients at the front of the line when their books need a few more waves of the wand to convince graders it's deserving of a blue label, the part about managing perceptions can turn into an onerous balancing act.

 

Especially when the community has been up in arms about over a dozen books from the same submitter experiencing a grade improvement while their condition appears to have worsened.

 

From what I interpret from these posts, there is an indication of at a minimum an appearance of a "conflict of interest" (and I use quotes because from a business standpoint this doesn't exist under the circumstances, it is a policy/perception issue with potential customers) or an outright existing conflict of interest based on unethical practices.

 

I am, I trust understandably, eliminating the latter without any evidence of proof from anyone that any CGC employee is unethically granting grades or restoration decisions, i.e., lack thereof, that are undeserved.

 

But on the other aspect let me turn this around to you both - what would you (or anyone who would like to weigh in please) have done by CCG/CGC/CCS in the scenario we are discussing to eliminate your concerns of a "conflict of interest"?

 

Besides, of course, shutting down or selling CCS or whatever other action would remove CCS from the parent umbrella or CGC sister relationship, which obviously is not an option.

 

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

[fantastic_four]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

 

With two reservations--I don't see that graders have any incentives for grading manufacturing defects more or less harshly, so I don't get that implication. I also don't agree a 9.6 can't have white pages showing on the right without qualifying how much can be poking through on the right--some of Barton's nosebleed Spideys posted earlier are good examples. But yes, downgrade for all defects equally and stop cutting breaks for when they occurred during the lifetime of a book.

[drbanner]

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

As CGC has already described, the information on all "restoration" work done on a book in-house is passed along to the graders, so it would be exactly the same to carry along all pressing, dry-cleaning, solvent cleaning, etc.,. information with the book such that it could be disclosed on the label without the "graders" ever knowing about it. I'd like to hear CGC address why they can't tell the truth about what was done to the book.

 

Also, Mark was checking on the process by which restoration removal is done in-house. Specifically, if there is the potential for multiple back-and-forth, internal review loops with CCS and the Gent from Kent until CGC will award the book a blue label. If there is, the graders will most certainly know the book is being worked on in-house.

 

Mark - any update on this?