Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[fantastic_four]

As CGC has already described, the information on all "restoration" work done on a book in-house is passed along to the graders, so it would be exactly the same to carry along all pressing, dry-cleaning, solvent cleaning, etc.,. information with the book such that it could be disclosed on the label without the "graders" ever knowing about it. I'd like to hear CGC address why they can't tell the truth about what was done to the book.

 

Your predilection for harping on this is tiring. You've heard them address this time after time, you just don't like the answer--they don't consider non-additive procedures to be restoration. Which we likely both believe is at best a compromise of the truth, with the difference between us being that I suspect they've made life much easier for themselves for reasons I've gone into great depth about repeatedly for years and in this thread, so I don't much hold their position against them and very likely would have made the same decision myself that Borock did due to the harsh nature of the undetectibility of non-additive restoration. I PARTICULARLY don't mind this difference between my own view and CGC's since it's so minor, although I understand that there's a small but vocal group of OCD'ers who view this minor difference in perspective as an atrocity against comics. You do hold this against them, as do a dozen or so others, and you're not going to let it drop whenever pressing comes up. So tiring, and so pointless.

 

What you're suggesting would mean CCS would have to shut down. Pretty sure you realize that, and that it's the reason you guys keep repeating the idea.

[drbanner]

Your predilection for harping on this is tiring.

So is CGC's refusal to be honest.

[mysterio]

 

Doc, I don't necessarily see the conflict and as I want to try and address every legitimate issue that is raised can you elaborate on your concern.

 

Let's say the book is submitted to CCS for restoration removal, whatever that might be. The submitter requests that the book then be sent to CGC for grading and it is sent back to the submitter as a restored book. Obviously the submitter would be unsatisfied which is why CCS would attempt again to safely remove whatever restoration remains - at no additional charge. The book would then go back to CGC for regrading - at no additional charge.

 

I suppose under certain circumstances that would be influenced by the amount of time involved in the process as well as the specific book in question it is possible that CGC might know that the book came from CCS.

 

But what would that mean in terms of a potential conflict in your eyes (or anyone else who wishes to weigh in)?

 

It would seem to be, at the very least, special treatment for CGC to regrade a book for free that CCS failed to remove all resto from. I get why CCS would be on the hook there, but please explain why CGC would be. CGC is paid to render a decision on grade, which they would have done. Can I get a regrade if I think they miss something, or only if it goes through CCS?

 

Still waiting for an answer on this COI question.

[jimbo_707]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

+3

[Bomber-Bob]

I still would like to see CCS make one simple statement. 'We will stop the procedure that is creating the cover shrinkage'. Period.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I still would like to see CCS make one simple statement. 'We will stop the procedure that is creating the cover shrinkage'. Period.

 

I'd like to know what CCS is gonna do about all the books they already up.

[mysterio]

I still would like to see CCS make one simple statement. 'We will stop the procedure that is creating the cover shrinkage'. Period.

 

I'd like to know what CCS is gonna do about all the books they already up.

 

Press them again. Remember, a light press can correct cover shrinkage.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I still would like to see CCS make one simple statement. 'We will stop the procedure that is creating the cover shrinkage'. Period.

 

I'd like to know what CCS is gonna do about all the books they already up.

 

Press them again. Remember, a light press can correct cover shrinkage.

 

[slym2none]

I still would like to see CCS make one simple statement. 'We will stop the procedure that is creating the cover shrinkage'. Period.

 

They would have to admit to pressing these books first. That isn't happening, notice.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

I still would like to see CCS make one simple statement. 'We will stop the procedure that is creating the cover shrinkage'. Period.

 

I'd like to know what CCS is gonna do about all the books they already up.

 

See my above post.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Randall Dowling]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

+3

+4

[MasterChief]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

+3

+4

+5 Bravo, SPB.

[Bomber-Bob]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

+3

+4

+5 Bravo, SPB.

+6 Works for me. We may have a petition growing here.

 

[Randall Dowling]

This is an interesting list of questions. I don't remember seeing an answer to them. I think I'd like to take a shot at a few of them:

• The printing sequence for comics was assemble cut pages and covers, saddle stitch/staple, fold and trim, correct?
  This was always my understanding of the process. No idea where this talk about cutting 50 at a time came from as it sounds absurd. Suppose it's possible but doesn't really make much sense. Kind of like cutting NYC phone books. A lot of shear pressure (see structural definition of the word "shear") required as opposed to one or just a few at a time.
  
• When the comics originally came off the press did the interior pages stick out beyond the right edge of cover with the centerfold sticking out the farthest forming a "v" shape when viewed from the side?
  I used to open up bundles before they hit the stand and although I don't remember seeing if the "v" was present, it most certainly did not extend past the cover. That would have stood out like a sore thumb.
  
• If not, is there any explanation for how this occurred post-production?
  I believe this is the key factor that has been mostly unconsidered. During the first days of a comics existence, it was kept horizontal in a bundle with other books (often in groups of 50, as I recall), either face up or face down. After the bundles were cut, they were put on the newsstand, vertical. I believe it is this vertical period of it's life on the newsstand that had a large influence on how the book might have skewed. Follow this scenario through the next few questions:
  
• Why do the interior pages stick out more at the top right edge and gradually taper to an even match with the cover at the bottom right edge?
  The books had a dampness about them when we received them. I remember the smell quite clearly. Gravity acting downward, the top of the book would dry at a faster rate than the bottom of the book, possible causing the bottom of the book to remain "wetter" (relative term) longer than the top, creating the phenomena of the body sticking out at the top and tapering toward the bottom.
  
• Why does the cover extend past the interior pages at the top edge of the comic?
  Because as the book did it's final drying in the first weeks of its life, it was upright, thus all shrinkage went down toward the bottom.
  
• Why does the cover line up evenly with the interior pages all along the bottom edge of the comic?
  Because the weight of the body was oriented (with the cover) toward the shelf or rack that the comic was sitting on, any change in dimension had to act downward according to gravity.
  
• What is the cause of a trapezoid shaped comic?
  Either a very bad miscut (I don't think that's what you're referring to) or the phenomena described above of the top part of the book drying at a different rate than the bottom.
  
• Why has no one been fired for picking Ben Affleck to play Batman?
  This is a mean-spirited question. I will not answer it.
  
• Why did the interior pages of 80 page annuals not have the same "v" shape of the pages?
  Total mystery to me, although my only guess is that it has to do with the fact that they aren't stitched together the same way as other books are. Otherwise, I got nothin'.
  
• Why did the interior pages of 80 page annuals not extend beyond the right edge of the cover?
  Again, I got nothing except for perhaps the newsprint was already at a dryer state at the time of assembly. Total shot in the dark.
  

Thanks! (thumbs u

Obviously, this was intended for DiceX, not me

If this theory is correct about book orientation being vertical on the newsstand,then logically, some books would not have this phenomena due to being displayed and sold in stacks or having been bought very shortly after being put out for sale (thus spending relatively little time upright). Thus creating a variety of results all across the spectrum, from no overhang, to pages sticking out, to massive overhang and no pages sticking out.

 

As I write this, another factor comes to mind which is that many newsstands in the 1940s were outdoor with no climate control, hence they would be damp (relatively speaking) on rainy days, cold on cold days, humid on very hot days, etc. I'm sure that would play a role also. Depending on the weather, books would dry at a faster or slower rate. But this is all just an educated guess. I really have no idea how these books got like this "naturally", whatever that means.

 

It would also mean that none of these phenomena are "production defects", again, whatever that means.

 

Anyway, just a thought.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

+3

+4

+5 Bravo, SPB.

+6 Works for me. We may have a petition growing here.

+7

[InvstmntComcSuply]

This is an interesting list of questions. I don't remember seeing an answer to them. I think I'd like to take a shot at a few of them:

• Why do the interior pages stick out more at the top right edge and gradually taper to an even match with the cover at the bottom right edge?
  The books had a dampness about them when we received them. I remember the smell quite clearly.
  
• Why does the cover extend past the interior pages at the top edge of the comic?
  Because as the book did it's final drying in the first weeks of its life......
  
• Why did the interior pages of 80 page annuals not extend beyond the right edge of the cover?
  Again, I got nothing except for perhaps the newsprint was already at a dryer state at the time of assembly. Total shot in the dark.

As I write this, another factor comes to mind which is that many newsstands in the 1940s were outdoor with no climate control, hence they would be damp (relatively speaking) on rainy days, cold on cold days, humid on very hot days, etc. I'm sure that would play a role also. Depending on the weather, books would dry at a faster or slower rate. But this is all just an educated guess. I really have no idea how these books got like this "naturally", whatever that means.

 

 

Great observations! This is very helpful in determining exactly how comics acquired their final shape.

 

Any idea how long the moistness was apparent after receiving the books?

 

If the books were moist to the touch upon delivery, they would not yet have reached equilibrium humidity and would contract until they did. Different paper stocks can contract at different rates.

[Midnightowl-migration]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

+3

+4

+5 Bravo, SPB.

+6 Works for me. We may have a petition growing here.

+7

+8

[slym2none]

+9

 

 

 

-slym

[MasterChief]

This is an interesting list of questions. I don't remember seeing an answer to them. I think I'd like to take a shot at a few of them:

• The printing sequence for comics was assemble cut pages and covers, saddle stitch/staple, fold and trim, correct?
  This was always my understanding of the process. No idea where this talk about cutting 50 at a time came from as it sounds absurd. Suppose it's possible but doesn't really make much sense. Kind of like cutting NYC phone books. A lot of shear pressure (see structural definition of the word "shear") required as opposed to one or just a few at a time.
  
• When the comics originally came off the press did the interior pages stick out beyond the right edge of cover with the centerfold sticking out the farthest forming a "v" shape when viewed from the side?
  I used to open up bundles before they hit the stand and although I don't remember seeing if the "v" was present, it most certainly did not extend past the cover. That would have stood out like a sore thumb.
  
• If not, is there any explanation for how this occurred post-production?
  I believe this is the key factor that has been mostly unconsidered. During the first days of a comics existence, it was kept horizontal in a bundle with other books (often in groups of 50, as I recall), either face up or face down. After the bundles were cut, they were put on the newsstand, vertical. I believe it is this vertical period of it's life on the newsstand that had a large influence on how the book might have skewed. Follow this scenario through the next few questions:
  
• Why do the interior pages stick out more at the top right edge and gradually taper to an even match with the cover at the bottom right edge?
  The books had a dampness about them when we received them. I remember the smell quite clearly. Gravity acting downward, the top of the book would dry at a faster rate than the bottom of the book, possible causing the bottom of the book to remain "wetter" (relative term) longer than the top, creating the phenomena of the body sticking out at the top and tapering toward the bottom.
  
• Why does the cover extend past the interior pages at the top edge of the comic?
  Because as the book did it's final drying in the first weeks of its life, it was upright, thus all shrinkage went down toward the bottom.
  
• Why does the cover line up evenly with the interior pages all along the bottom edge of the comic?
  Because the weight of the body was oriented (with the cover) toward the shelf or rack that the comic was sitting on, any change in dimension had to act downward according to gravity.
  
• What is the cause of a trapezoid shaped comic?
  Either a very bad miscut (I don't think that's what you're referring to) or the phenomena described above of the top part of the book drying at a different rate than the bottom.
  
• Why has no one been fired for picking Ben Affleck to play Batman?
  This is a mean-spirited question. I will not answer it.
  
• Why did the interior pages of 80 page annuals not have the same "v" shape of the pages?
  Total mystery to me, although my only guess is that it has to do with the fact that they aren't stitched together the same way as other books are. Otherwise, I got nothin'.
  
• Why did the interior pages of 80 page annuals not extend beyond the right edge of the cover?
  Again, I got nothing except for perhaps the newsprint was already at a dryer state at the time of assembly. Total shot in the dark.
  

Thanks! (thumbs u

Obviously, this was intended for DiceX, not me

If this theory is correct about book orientation being vertical on the newsstand,then logically, some books would not have this phenomena due to being displayed and sold in stacks or having been bought very shortly after being put out for sale (thus spending relatively little time upright). Thus creating a variety of results all across the spectrum, from no overhang, to pages sticking out, to massive overhang and no pages sticking out.

 

As I write this, another factor comes to mind which is that many newsstands in the 1940s were outdoor with no climate control, hence they would be damp (relatively speaking) on rainy days, cold on cold days, humid on very hot days, etc. I'm sure that would play a role also. Depending on the weather, books would dry at a faster or slower rate. But this is all just an educated guess. I really have no idea how these books got like this "naturally", whatever that means.

 

It would also mean that none of these phenomena are "production defects", again, whatever that means.

 

Anyway, just a thought.

 

As far as the printing and bindery sequence goes during the Golden Age, the process was detailed in an article written by M.C. "Max" Gaines titled Good Triumphs Over Evil! – More About Comics for the magazine PRINT, A Quarterly Journal of the Graphic Arts, Volume III, No. 3, 1943.

 

Gaines detailed the process clearly and succinctly.

 

No speculation. No conjecture. No plastic rulers. No rabbit holes.

 

Fold, stitch, trim and count the completed [individual] comic magazines to be put in cartons ready for shipping.

 

I suspect the process change little over the course of the 20 plus years following the Gaines article. DiceX, the resident printing subject matter expert, mentioned as much in several of his posts.

 

The cutaway below captures the post printing process scribed by Gaines. A link is provided to the complete article for those worms interested in conducting original research of such cradle-to-grave comic book production matters.

 

 

 

 

 

Print Magazine, A Quarterly Journal of the Graphic Arts, Volume III, No. 3, 1943

 

 

[gaz973]

I was never a fan of an in house pressing company. To me, Matt's job was to get the book to the highest grade possible. He was very clear that he knew ways to do this that would not be detected.

 

If the solution is not to sell the company or separate them another way, such as having them put on the label that that they worked on the books then my answer would be to re--educate the graders.

 

The graders should have no incentive to raise grades, their job is to accurately grade. Change their instructions and eliminate "manufacturing defects" because those manufacturing defects are the loopholes that people who are trying to artificially raise the grades of the books will use the most.

 

Have them taught to grade the book in front of them, period. I keep repeating this...if there are white pages showing on the right edge, it's not a 9.6, they shouldn't have to decide if the book was born that way.

 

If the book has a twist, well, it's twisted, it's not the same as a book that is not and should not grade as high.

 

This will level the playing field and perhaps eliminate the incentive for people trying to mask damage by disguising it as a "manufacturing defect".

 

 

+1

 

+2

+3

+4

+5 Bravo, SPB.

+6 Works for me. We may have a petition growing here.

+7

+8

+9