I tried to make it through 55 pages but.....

[lou_fine]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if CGC KNOW a book has been pressed because they've seen the book previously in an unpressed state, then de facto the book has been pressed with intent to restore and therefore should get a PLOD. CGC should at a minimum set up procedures to catch the easy cases, meaning books with distinctive markings that they can easily identify as a previously submitted book. The list that Arty put up of Church books is really really shocking and quite frankly just negligent on the part of CGC.

 

 

tth2;

 

I was also a strong advocate of calling out all of these books and having CGC picking all of the low-hanging fruit when I first saw this list last year. It was then pointed out to me that this would really do nothing more than flagged just the GA books and let all of the SA and BA books go through unscathed. Not a really fair system since it discriminates against the GA books.

 

I still believe the system that I proposed last weekend would result in picking off ALL of the fruit in the tree as oppossed to just the low-hanging ones. It would also result in a system where the restorers would finally be working with us, instead of the current system where they are working against us. This would be a win win situation for everybody including the marketplace, whereas the scenario which CGC is most likely to announce would be nothing more than a lose lose situation including a falling marketplace.

 

I know that I would have a lot more confidence in a marketplace whereby all books undergoing restoration work would be encoded with a tiny invisible infra-red digitized code on the last page and inside back cover of the book. Collectors and investors would have a lot more confidence in a 2-step system whereby a trio of professional graders determined the final grade on a book AND a trio of professional restorers certified a book with respect to restoration based upon their prior experience. Much better than the anticipated system by CGC whereby they have a trio of graders determine the grade and then do a best guess on the restoration aspect of the book.

 

Like I said in the other post: Raw books for X dollars; CGC graded books for 3X or 4X dollars; and CGC graded PLUS 3rd party professional restoration certified books for 5X or 6X dollars.

 

If such a system was in place, I would be back in the market like a shot. Right now, I have basically been out except for the odd low price book because you just don't know what you are getting with a high price slabbed book anymore due to the market temptation to cheat being at an all-time peak, coupled with CGC's encouragement for everybody to clean and press their books.

[PovertyRow]

It was then pointed out to me that this would really do nothing more than flagged just the GA books and let all of the SA and BA books go through unscathed. Not a really fair system since it discriminates against the GA books.

 

You mean like where CGC keeps blue labels on GA books with small amounts of color touch or glue on the spine?

 

I say call them as they are.

[tth2]

I was also a strong advocate of calling out all of these books and having CGC picking all of the low-hanging fruit when I first saw this list last year. It was then pointed out to me that this would really do nothing more than flagged just the GA books and let all of the SA and BA books go through unscathed. Not a really fair system since it discriminates against the GA books.

 

I see your point, although I don't think it would discriminate against GA books per se, it would discriminate against books with distinctive markings. It just so happens that many Church books and other prominent GA pedigrees have distinctive markings, but there are also SA books that have distinctive markings (WMs, Winnipegs, some Bethlehems and Western Penns, etc.). Since your area of interest seems to be GA, I would think you'd be happy that the books in that category would be policed more tightly. If they could find a way to police just SA books, my primary of interest, I could care less whether the detection method also catches GA or BA.

 

I still believe the system that I proposed last weekend would result in picking off ALL of the fruit in the tree as oppossed to just the low-hanging ones. It would also result in a system where the restorers would finally be working with us, instead of the current system where they are working against us. I know that I would have a lot more confidence in a marketplace whereby all books undergoing restoration work would be encoded with a tiny invisible infra-red digitized code on the last page and inside back cover of the book.

 

What's the system you're proposing? To put a microdot in the books to track them? I think that's not a bad idea, but will collectors accept something being stuck to their books, and would these microdot thingies be tamper-proof?

 

Collectors and investors would have a lot more confidence in a 2-step system whereby a trio of professional graders determined the final grade on a book AND a trio of professional restorers certified a book with respect to restoration based upon their prior experience. Much better than the anticipated system by CGC whereby they have a trio of graders determine the grade and then do a best guess on the restoration aspect of the book.

 

Where are you getting this from? What makes you think CGC will not hire a resto expert to replace Chris to continue the same resto checks that CGC currently does? I know in the CGC Answers thread there was speculation that Leitch or somebody was going to take over those duties as a stop-gap measure, but I didn't get the impression it was a permanent solution. I'd be surprised if CGC didn't either hire someone full time to do the checks or he starts doing it full time.

[lou_fine]

What's the system you're proposing? To put a microdot in the books to track them? I think that's not a bad idea, but will collectors accept something being stuck to their books, and would these microdot thingies be tamper-proof?

 

 

Hi tth2;

 

Sorry for the late response. It's been a couple of days since I've wandered back to the General Forums. The system below was posted last month in another thread when the whole pressing controversy started. Maybe it's just pie in the sky and needs a lot of work to put in place, but still better than the simple "grab it now money and damn the hobby" proposal being hinted at now by CGC.

 

 

 

 

 

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I believe that all professional restorers, including CGC, if they do decide to move into this business, should all be certified. In order to be certified and maintain their certification, they must all adher to a professional rules of conduct. One of these rules would state that any work performed by them would have to be disclosed through the form of a miniscule infra-red digitized code on both the last page and inside back cover of the book. As a result, all books undergoing any type of work (including restoration removal) would carry an invisible audit trail along with them.

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An invisible audit trail to track invisible work? I really don't have a problem with an internal mark myself, but since it will be detectable whereas pro NDP and restoration removal isn't, the cure is more of a defacement than the disease...

 

I do like the idea, but the problem is that this isn't Wall Street. Comics aren't a regulated market, so Cicconi, Nelson, Heft, and CCS are going to do whatever is most viable to keep them earning a living. Since they know an infrared mark would shrink their market, why would they do it? I know, I know...it's the ethical thing to do...but the ethics of the issue are controversial and debatable, so I'd be surprised if it ever happened. They'd have to be motivated to do it for their own good, which means that there would have to be some great market recession or depression directly attributable to undisclosed NDP for them to have the incentive to do it.

 

It is definitely a lot more viable to do this with comics than with cards and coins, however, since there is no interior of secondary display importance to put an infrared mark at in those other hobbies.

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Hi FF;

 

Nice to get your input on this idea.

 

With respect to your first point, I would much rather purchase a book that has been certified with an invisible infra-red code than a raw book with possible undisclosed restoration activities. To fully understand my point here, refer to my scenario below. Either way, if the book gets slabbed, nobody ever sees the interior pages anyways.

 

With respect to your point about shrinking the market: the only market shrinkage I see would be to the overall back issue market if the current controversial proposal is undertaken resulting in an uncontrolled market absent of confidence and integrity.

 

With respect to the issue of the restorers: where you see a roadblock, I see nothing but a huge opportunity and a win, win situation for all sides. If you look at today's marketplace, CGC graded books generally goes for a lot more money than raw books. Similarly, in the future, certified books could also go for a lot more money than uncertified raw books. By certification, I am referring to books that have undergone a restoration detection process by certified professionals and digitized with an invisible infra-red code denoting either NO RESTORATION or varying degrees and type of restoration. One guess as to who would be getting the business here. So what you see as an disincentive for the restorers would actually be a strong incentive for them to actively participate in.

 

Just imagine a marketplace with not only third party independent grading, but also their third party independent restoration certification. This would add even more confidence and integrity into the market and encourage more collectors or BSD investors to come in. Oh, don't bother with the argument that we already have CGC restoration detection because I just don't buy it. We certainly have PARTIAL restoration detection in place, but certainly not an end-to-end detection process. By having restorers digitally code all work done on a book would provide end-to-end tracking and eliminate the need for best guesses and needless declarations such as "cleaning and pressing is not consider to be restoration because we cannot detect it beyond a reasonable doubt".

 

You never know, in an open environment with both a 10-point condition grading AND a 10-point restoration rating certification system, GA books with R-3 could become just as acceptable as a current CGC 9.0 graded book. Similarly, an early SA book might also just be as acceptable with a R-1 restoration rating as a CGC 9.2 graded book. Modern books, no doubt, would have to be at R-0 similar to how they would have to be at 9.8 and above in order to carry a premium.

 

Bottom-line: Raw books selling for XX dollars. CGC graded books selling for 2 or 3 XX dollars. CGC graded AND restoration certified books selling for 4 or 5 XX dollars.

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[fantastic_four]

With respect to the issue of the restorers: where you see a roadblock, I see nothing but a huge opportunity and a win, win situation for all sides. If you look at today's marketplace, CGC graded books generally goes for a lot more money than raw books. Similarly, in the future, certified books could also go for a lot more money than uncertified raw books. By certification, I am referring to books that have undergone a restoration detection process by certified professionals and digitized with an invisible infra-red code denoting either NO RESTORATION or varying degrees and type of restoration. One guess as to who would be getting the business here. So what you see as an disincentive for the restorers would actually be a strong incentive for them to actively participate in.

 

This just wouldn't work, at least as you've described it in the paragraph above. One loophole is that a grading or conservation professional can certify and mark a book as having "no restoration," and after that certification, you can still press the book, meaning that the mark is permanently denoting something that it can't guarantee the book won't end up undergoing at some point in the future. Additionally, since you can't detect many forms of NDP anyway, these restorers would be subject to the exact same problem CGC currently is--they'd be certifying books as unrestored that have actually undergone some work.

 

I'm not pessimistic that your suggestion can't be revised to close the loopholes. Any ideas?