Preferred method of payment for Mega-Keys at a con...

[Heronext]

I know I say this often, but I'll say it again here:

 

Paypal Personal is not for merchandise. It is against Paypal's terms.

 

If you are going to use Paypal, you need to PAY THEM for the service they provide.

 

All the "but, but, but" excuses in the world don't mean squat.

 

If you use Paypal personal for goods/services, you are STEALING from Paypal.

 

(And yes, I have refunded payments from people who sent via Personal for goods/services. Reimbursing for CGC fees, witnessing fees, shipping costs is one thing...you're not buying anything from the person you're sending money to. But buying goods/services is the real deal.)

 

I have to admit my compass changed a little on these matters after living abroad for a few years. Cheating on taxes, selling counterfeit designer clothes, and gaming the government for unemployment benefits are things few would criticize you for in Spain for example (nothing I ever did though). I know there are some goody-two-shoes on these boards regarding PayPal because I've seen their posts before.

 

Who's to draw the line between a "personal" and "non-personal" payment? If I'm paying my brother back because he loaned me money for a lawnmower last year, doesn't he really own it and I'm buying a "good" from him? Who says Dale Roberts didn't give me an FF 48 for my birthday and I gave him a thousand dollars for his? If PayPal doesn't want people gaming their system, then they shouldn't offer a free option at all.

 

It's always a good thing to see people take definitive stands on stealing. Helps me know where you're coming from.

 

Who's to draw the line? Paypal. It's their service.

 

And Paypal doesn't have a choice. Finance regulations require them to have this option.

 

"If you didn't want me robbing you, why do you own things people want??"

 

I didn't take a definitive stand. I'm just asking questions.

 

I've never asked anyone to send me payment via personal option, but a few people have. Is it my responsibility to police their "mistakes"?

 

What are these "regulations" you refer to?

 

You borrow a hundred bucks from your grandma for a day at comiccon and now you're paying her back by PayPal. Do you send it personal or goods/services option?

[01TheDude]

buncha pendanticphiles up in this joint tonight

[SquareChaos]

I know I say this often, but I'll say it again here:

 

Paypal Personal is not for merchandise. It is against Paypal's terms.

 

If you are going to use Paypal, you need to PAY THEM for the service they provide.

 

All the "but, but, but" excuses in the world don't mean squat.

 

If you use Paypal personal for goods/services, you are STEALING from Paypal.

 

(And yes, I have refunded payments from people who sent via Personal for goods/services. Reimbursing for CGC fees, witnessing fees, shipping costs is one thing...you're not buying anything from the person you're sending money to. But buying goods/services is the real deal.)

 

I have to admit my compass changed a little on these matters after living abroad for a few years. Cheating on taxes, selling counterfeit designer clothes, and gaming the government for unemployment benefits are things few would criticize you for in Spain for example (nothing I ever did though). I know there are some goody-two-shoes on these boards regarding PayPal because I've seen their posts before.

 

Who's to draw the line between a "personal" and "non-personal" payment? If I'm paying my brother back because he loaned me money for a lawnmower last year, doesn't he really own it and I'm buying a "good" from him? Who says Dale Roberts didn't give me an FF 48 for my birthday and I gave him a thousand dollars for his? If PayPal doesn't want people gaming their system, then they shouldn't offer a free option at all.

 

It's always a good thing to see people take definitive stands on stealing. Helps me know where you're coming from.

 

Who's to draw the line? Paypal. It's their service.

 

And Paypal doesn't have a choice. Finance regulations require them to have this option.

 

"If you didn't want me robbing you, why do you own things people want??"

 

 

Being very honest, I have never read their service agreement.

 

I have purchased, I believe, three items in the many, many years I have used PayPal using the 'gift' option. The most expensive item was $200.

 

Each time I did it, it was at the seller's request.

 

Well of course, because they didn't want to pay the fee.

 

But it is still stealing.

 

The real question is, what will you do now that you're aware of it.

 

We have pages and pages of probation list discussions regarding bad deals, but no one bats an eye if it's stealing from Paypal.

 

That doesn't make sense.

 

And I'm well aware that there are people who will roll their eyes at this, and continue to do it. But a man always reaps what he sows.

 

 

I honestly don't know what I will do once I read the agreement specifying how it is supposed to work. I mean, I've had a PayPal account since it launched and it has only come up three times (twice on these boards) so... I'm not sure.

 

[... reading user agreement ...]

 

Surprisingly, it appears that PayPal puts the onus on the seller (receiver of the money):

 

4. Receiving Money.

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

 

I see nothing stating the reverse... I can find a great deal about the fees associated with pulling money via credit card or a bank account, but nothing about fees associated with using money already in your PayPal account, or about sending a Personal Payment for an item you are purchasing.

 

Can you show me where it says anything about a buyer's responsibility in their user agreement? I can't imagine why they didn't state it was the responsibility of both parties, it makes no sense to me unless they didn't intend the spirit of the rule to be what you suggest it to be.

[SquareChaos]

If we're going to get REALLY pedantic, I didn't say YOU were stealing. I said IT is stealing. Just because we're being pedantic and all.

 

I was joking anyway - though see my last post, this is actually getting interesting to me!

[SquareChaos]

buncha pendanticphiles up in this joint tonight

 

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

 

[Heronext]

One thing that does bother me is someone who negotiates a deal no matter what the size and then asks if you take card.

 

 

You see? It was never stated up front which is just the confusion I'm referring to. You assumed one thing and the buyer assumed another.

 

One thing I don't like about this hobby in fact is the "malleability" of prices and expectation of bargaining - but that's really another topic. All the system does is take advantage of the uninitiated. How do you feel when a 12-year old kid who saved up his paper route money all summer for a CGC 9.4 1st appearance of Deadpool pays full sticker when he doesn't know any better? Not picking on you Pike but I often wonder what goes through dealers' minds in moments like this. Because once upon a time, I was that kid.

[SquareChaos]

One thing that does bother me is someone who negotiates a deal no matter what the size and then asks if you take card.

 

 

You see? It was never stated up front which is just the confusion I'm referring to. You assumed one thing and the buyer assumed another.

 

One thing I don't like about this hobby in fact is the "malleability" of prices and expectation of bargaining - but that's really another topic. All the system does is take advantage of the uninitiated. How do you feel when a 12-year old kid who saved up his paper route money all summer for a CGC 9.4 1st appearance of Deadpool pays full sticker when he doesn't know any better? Not picking on you Pike but I often wonder what goes through dealers' minds in moments like this. Because once upon a time, I was that kid.

 

Even being semi-informed, I still dislike this, but I'm not sure how else the industry could function.

 

Some booths / shops, the price is exactly what they say, some booths / shops, the first price given is just an opening salvo. I've offended the first when I tried to bargain, and thought the second were crazy when I heard their first price.

 

I guess, worst case scenario, those kids will learn a (literally) valuable lesson and still get a comic they coveted.

[01TheDude]

we provide a service. That service costs money

 

pay your damn bills your deadbeat mother***SPOOOOON********

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I know I say this often, but I'll say it again here:

 

Paypal Personal is not for merchandise. It is against Paypal's terms.

 

If you are going to use Paypal, you need to PAY THEM for the service they provide.

 

All the "but, but, but" excuses in the world don't mean squat.

 

If you use Paypal personal for goods/services, you are STEALING from Paypal.

 

(And yes, I have refunded payments from people who sent via Personal for goods/services. Reimbursing for CGC fees, witnessing fees, shipping costs is one thing...you're not buying anything from the person you're sending money to. But buying goods/services is the real deal.)

 

I have to admit my compass changed a little on these matters after living abroad for a few years. Cheating on taxes, selling counterfeit designer clothes, and gaming the government for unemployment benefits are things few would criticize you for in Spain for example (nothing I ever did though). I know there are some goody-two-shoes on these boards regarding PayPal because I've seen their posts before.

 

Who's to draw the line between a "personal" and "non-personal" payment? If I'm paying my brother back because he loaned me money for a lawnmower last year, doesn't he really own it and I'm buying a "good" from him? Who says Dale Roberts didn't give me an FF 48 for my birthday and I gave him a thousand dollars for his? If PayPal doesn't want people gaming their system, then they shouldn't offer a free option at all.

 

It's always a good thing to see people take definitive stands on stealing. Helps me know where you're coming from.

 

Who's to draw the line? Paypal. It's their service.

 

And Paypal doesn't have a choice. Finance regulations require them to have this option.

 

"If you didn't want me robbing you, why do you own things people want??"

 

I didn't take a definitive stand. I'm just asking questions.

 

I've never asked anyone to send me payment via personal option, but a few people have. Is it my responsibility to police their "mistakes"?

 

If you don't, you stand a good chance of losing the ability to do it yourself.

 

What are these "regulations" you refer to?

 

You'll have to ask the bankers on the board for specifics. I assume (but could be wrong) it falls under the EFT Act, or thereabouts. What I do know is that Paypal is required by federal regulation to provide a no-fee personal option.

 

You borrow a hundred bucks from your grandma for a day at comiccon and now you're paying her back by PayPal. Do you send it personal or goods/services option?

 

Obviously, that's a reimbursement, and personal is what that was designed for. You didn't buy anything from your Grandma, did you?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I know I say this often, but I'll say it again here:

 

Paypal Personal is not for merchandise. It is against Paypal's terms.

 

If you are going to use Paypal, you need to PAY THEM for the service they provide.

 

All the "but, but, but" excuses in the world don't mean squat.

 

If you use Paypal personal for goods/services, you are STEALING from Paypal.

 

(And yes, I have refunded payments from people who sent via Personal for goods/services. Reimbursing for CGC fees, witnessing fees, shipping costs is one thing...you're not buying anything from the person you're sending money to. But buying goods/services is the real deal.)

 

I have to admit my compass changed a little on these matters after living abroad for a few years. Cheating on taxes, selling counterfeit designer clothes, and gaming the government for unemployment benefits are things few would criticize you for in Spain for example (nothing I ever did though). I know there are some goody-two-shoes on these boards regarding PayPal because I've seen their posts before.

 

Who's to draw the line between a "personal" and "non-personal" payment? If I'm paying my brother back because he loaned me money for a lawnmower last year, doesn't he really own it and I'm buying a "good" from him? Who says Dale Roberts didn't give me an FF 48 for my birthday and I gave him a thousand dollars for his? If PayPal doesn't want people gaming their system, then they shouldn't offer a free option at all.

 

It's always a good thing to see people take definitive stands on stealing. Helps me know where you're coming from.

 

Who's to draw the line? Paypal. It's their service.

 

And Paypal doesn't have a choice. Finance regulations require them to have this option.

 

"If you didn't want me robbing you, why do you own things people want??"

 

 

Being very honest, I have never read their service agreement.

 

I have purchased, I believe, three items in the many, many years I have used PayPal using the 'gift' option. The most expensive item was $200.

 

Each time I did it, it was at the seller's request.

 

Well of course, because they didn't want to pay the fee.

 

But it is still stealing.

 

The real question is, what will you do now that you're aware of it.

 

We have pages and pages of probation list discussions regarding bad deals, but no one bats an eye if it's stealing from Paypal.

 

That doesn't make sense.

 

And I'm well aware that there are people who will roll their eyes at this, and continue to do it. But a man always reaps what he sows.

 

 

I honestly don't know what I will do once I read the agreement specifying how it is supposed to work. I mean, I've had a PayPal account since it launched and it has only come up three times (twice on these boards) so... I'm not sure.

 

[... reading user agreement ...]

 

Surprisingly, it appears that PayPal puts the onus on the seller (receiver of the money):

 

4. Receiving Money.

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

 

I see nothing stating the reverse... I can find a great deal about the fees associated with pulling money via credit card or a bank account, but nothing about fees associated with using money already in your PayPal account, or about sending a Personal Payment for an item you are purchasing.

 

Can you show me where it says anything about a buyer's responsibility in their user agreement? I can't imagine why they didn't state it was the responsibility of both parties, it makes no sense to me unless they didn't intend the spirit of the rule to be what you suggest it to be.

 

Paypal user agreement, section 16:

 

""Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill."

 

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#16

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

One thing that does bother me is someone who negotiates a deal no matter what the size and then asks if you take card.

 

 

You see? It was never stated up front which is just the confusion I'm referring to. You assumed one thing and the buyer assumed another.

 

 

It's stated, quite clearly, as noted above.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Edit: how are you screwing yourself? And who cares about breaking PP terms?

 

Yeah, you tell 'em!

 

Who cares that you're the owner of your things? I want it! Hand it over!!

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Slabbed books with paypal gift is good as cash.

 

Yeah, make that purchase, and call it a "gift"! Who cares what Paypal thinks about you using their service for free, right?

 

Good as cash!

 

 

I just do not understand how so many people can be so casual and open about stealing from somebody, even if that somebody is a corporation.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I don't think it's against the Paypal rules to gift cash that is already in your paypal account.

 

 

Yes, it is.

[Heronext]

I hope in the future there are cheaper alternatives for sending instant electronic payments. I mean the only reasons to use PayPal are if you want to buy on credit or you want the protection, which you don't need if you are buying from a reputable seller (with a return policy for example).

 

Can we all just agree on a different service and start using that? Here are some alternatives

 

http://lifehacker.com/5821634/why-you-should-ditch-paypal-and-use-these-other-services-to-send-people-money

[Heronext]

One thing that does bother me is someone who negotiates a deal no matter what the size and then asks if you take card.

 

 

You see? It was never stated up front which is just the confusion I'm referring to. You assumed one thing and the buyer assumed another.

 

 

It's stated, quite clearly, as noted above.

 

Sorry I don't follow your comment. The scenario is, buyer and seller negotiate a price, then seller asks buyer if they take credit cards. Seller did not like this because he assumed a condition of the deal was cash would be paid, which was never made clear or else the buyer wouldn't have asked.

[RockMyAmadeus]

One thing that does bother me is someone who negotiates a deal no matter what the size and then asks if you take card.

 

 

You see? It was never stated up front which is just the confusion I'm referring to. You assumed one thing and the buyer assumed another.

 

 

It's stated, quite clearly, as noted above.

 

Sorry I don't follow your comment. The scenario is, buyer and seller negotiate a price, then seller asks buyer if they take credit cards. Seller did not like this because he assumed a condition of the deal was cash would be paid, which was never made clear or else the buyer wouldn't have asked.

 

I'm sorry. I totally misread your post. I think I had a few mixed up.

 

Sorry about that. It's late...?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I hope in the future there are cheaper alternatives for sending instant electronic payments. I mean the only reasons to use PayPal are if you want to buy on credit or you want the protection, which you don't need if you are buying from a reputable seller (with a return policy for example).

 

Can we all just agree on a different service and start using that? Here are some alternatives

 

http://lifehacker.com/5821634/why-you-should-ditch-paypal-and-use-these-other-services-to-send-people-money

 

I do too...I hate Paypal, and have since the beginning. They are a horrible company, owned by an even worse company, eBay.

 

 

[SquareChaos]

RMA - I'm not sure the user reference you linked really puts much, if any, onus on the sender of cash to do so via a specific method. It states what 'personal payments' can be used for, it says nothing otherwise really.

 

From my perspective, I'm not sure it really matters too much. Whenever I sell I never ask the buyer to send PayPal in a particular manner. I always assume they are going to do it in a manner that provides them with some sort of buyer protection.

 

When I buy I have always done what the seller requested with regards to PayPal purchases - is this really a 'buyer' or 'sender' problem? Should I refuse to send PayPal in the manner that the seller requests?

 

Reading the terms has not cleared this up at all, I see that you seem to be certain about the intentions behind these rules, but I am not - for the buyer / sender, it seems that protection is the only thing on display (other than possible fees associated with moving money from here to there, that you pay regardless of sending method).

 

At the end of the day, the best I can say is I may just ask a seller if they would take some other form of payment if they are trying to avoid the PayPal 3%... I sympathize, as, it is a stupidly large fee for the service provided.

 

And I saw your comment on them and eBay both... don't get me started on eBay's percentage.

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA - I'm not sure the user reference you linked really puts much, if any, onus on the sender of cash to do so via a specific method. It states what 'personal payments' can be used for, it says nothing otherwise really.

 

From my perspective, I'm not sure it really matters too much. Whenever I sell I never ask the buyer to send PayPal in a particular manner. I always assume they are going to do it in a manner that provides them with some sort of buyer protection.

 

When I buy I have always done what the seller requested with regards to PayPal purchases - is this really a 'buyer' or 'sender' problem? Should I refuse to send PayPal in the manner that the seller requests?

 

Reading the terms has not cleared this up at all, I see that you seem to be certain about the intentions behind these rules, but I am not - for the buyer / sender, it seems that protection is the only thing on display (other than possible fees associated with moving money from here to there, that you pay regardless of sending method).

 

At the end of the day, the best I can say is I may just ask a seller if they would take some other form of payment if they are trying to avoid the PayPal 3%... I sympathize, as, it is a stupidly large fee for the service provided.

 

And I saw your comment on them and eBay both... don't get me started on eBay's percentage.

 

I'm not sure what is unclear about "without a purchase."

 

Can you explain to me why "without a purchase" is ambiguous?

 

Or "not to or from a business"?

 

But mostly "without a purchase"...I'd like to know what is unclear about that.

 

Because it says to me "without a purchase." Meaning, you're not buying a good/service.

 

Maybe the language of "gift" is unclear? Is it a "gift" to purchase something?

 

Or the "Pay for goods or services", with a cash register symbol (signifying merchant activity) vs. "send money to friends of family"...what is ambiguous about those two differences?

 

"But, X Dealer is my friend!" Sure, but are you buying something from them?

 

I have a really difficult time with the ways used to try and justify using Paypal personal for business. I guess "personal" has the same meaning as "business"...?

 

Yes, you absolutely should refuse to send money via Paypal personal when buying merchandise. It is theft. If you do it knowingly, you are an accessory to it.

 

Now, sellers can request the additional 3%...which I think is EXTREMELY CHINTZY...but asking you to send personal for merchandise? Clear line, there.