San Francisco Pedigree?

[FFB]

Hi Bob,

 

Nice to see you here. Thanks for the info on the Tom Reilly books, and thanks even more for coming here to give some first-hand, indisputable knowledge on the topic. (Not that Alan's info was any less accurate -- it's just always nice to get it directly from the source.) Hopefully CGC will do the right thing as they have done in the past when mistakes were made.

 

I remember talking to you about the Reilly collection when I met you at WonderCon last year. Thanks again for taking time out of your set-up duties to chat with me about Platinum Age comics and showing me some of the Platinum Age books you had at the show. That was definitely a highlight of the show for me.

 

P.S. Thanks also for the deal you gave me on the NM Amazing Spidey Annual #2. It's one of my favorite pieces of my collection.

 

Hope you stick around and contribute from time to time. Having guys like you and Jon Berk here really adds to the knowlege base.

[tth2]

Scratch what I said earlier about this. Sometimes the system doesn't work.

 

Looks like CGC is waffling heavily on what to do with this book. After giving me some mealy-mouthed non-response about exactly what he was going to talk to Heritage about, it appears as if Borock is ready to sweep this one under the rug. Don't hold your breath on this book getting pulled and relabelled.

 

Pedigreeman, I can understand your irritation at CGC for erroneously giving the pedigree designation in the first place. But how exactly can you be mad at Borock for not getting the book back from Heritage to relabel it? It's not his book to do that with, correct? He'd have to get Heritage's consent to relabel it, and perhaps they're not willing to cooperate. I know that if I had a book labeled as a Reilly/SF book and knew I was going to get a higher price because of that designation, I'd tell CGC to go off too if they asked me to relabel because of their error. Let CGC either buy it from me to relabel or let the next owner be the good samaritan.

[tth2]

Welcome to the boards, Bob. We are getting some serious GA big hitters on these boards now!

[Forbush-Man]

Welcome to the boards, Bob. We are getting some serious GA big hitters on these boards now!

 

 

[sfilosa]

I agree with you.

 

Especially if the current owner bought the book as a SAN FRANCISCO book. It would be like buying a Universal Blue Label book and having someone tell you for a fact (and proving it), that the book was restored.

 

Why does the current owner want to take the loss.

 

But it does bother me a lot that CGC called it a San Francisco pedigree when the first thing they should know is the time frame of a pedigree. Just like I pointed out that Metro was in error, trying to sell the Tales of Suspense #1 as an Edgar Church book (but it was CGC'd). The time frame did match.

[Aman619]

Its a shame CGC cant get every books designation correct. But most of the blame goes to the haphazard ways of the whole comics collecting community since day one. Is it fair to expect CGC to wade through all claims of PEDIGREES that date back to hearsay and oral tradition over 35 years, and be perfectly accurate? Up till CGC, who is as impartial as we're ever had, all weve had to rely on for Pedigree info and history of specific copies were the dealers whoi were (snicker) marketing/selling the books. Now CGC has to deduce the 'truth' from the myths and lies??

 

I dont see how they can do 100%... do you?

[PedigreeMan]

tth2: I should have been more specific than "pulled and relabelled;" namely, I would like CGC to perform something akin to what they did with the infamous Batman #11 which they missed the resto on. That is, buy the book outright and "retire" it from circulation, or, more likely, pay some modest compensation to the owner based on the difference in price between a gorgeous 9.6 WP beauty and a gorgeous 9.6 WP beauty Reilly to get the "San Fran" notation off of its label. I don't think the difference would be much.

 

aman: No doubt that pedigree verification can be a near-impossible task in some instances. Books get lost, provenance is forgotten, what have you. In those cases, given the limited scope of what CGC has to work with -- namely, an all or nothing pedigree designation as opposed to a "kinda, sorta, maybe" one -- I will more than likely agree with their decision provided all other basic criteria are met. In other words, if a book falls outside of a given pedigree date range or isn't on the pedigree's master list, I'm going to want more information. Why doesn't CGC?

 

I think that's the heart of my issue with this whole thing: Why didn't Haspel or Borock contact Bob about these "outlier" Reillys? Or contact Gary about the bogus Windy City GL #3? A simple two minute conversation with these gents would have yielded emphatic "No!"s from them with regard to pedigree authenticity. And I, for one, am more apt to believe that they know what they're talking about when it comes to collections that they found. That's not true for all pedigrees and their discoverers, mind you, but these two guys? I'd take their words on the subject over Haspel's or Borock's in a heartbeat.

 

Bob: Thanks for coming here and sharing. I hope you stick around and contribute to some of the discussions. I know you would be able to provide some great insight on a lot of things! Time to take some of these kids to school!

 

Alan

[tth2]

tth2: I should have been more specific than "pulled and relabelled;" namely, I would like CGC to perform something akin to what they did with the infamous Batman #11 which they missed the resto on. That is, buy the book outright and "retire" it from circulation, or, more likely, pay some modest compensation to the owner based on the difference in price between a gorgeous 9.6 WP beauty and a gorgeous 9.6 WP beauty Reilly to get the "San Fran" notation off of its label. I don't think the difference would be much.

 

aman: No doubt that pedigree verification can be a near-impossible task in some instances. Books get lost, provenance is forgotten, what have you. In those cases, given the limited scope of what CGC has to work with -- namely, an all or nothing pedigree designation as opposed to a "kinda, sorta, maybe" one -- I will more than likely agree with their decision provided all other basic criteria are met. In other words, if a book falls outside of a given pedigree date range or isn't on the pedigree's master list, I'm going to want more information. Why doesn't CGC?

 

I think that's the heart of my issue with this whole thing: Why didn't Haspel or Borock contact Bob about these "outlier" Reillys? Or contact Gary about the bogus Windy City GL #3? A simple two minute conversation with these gents would have yielded emphatic "No!"s from them with regard to pedigree authenticity. And I, for one, am more apt to believe that they know what they're talking about when it comes to collections that they found. That's not true for all pedigrees and their discoverers, mind you, but these two guys? I'd take their words on the subject over Haspel's or Borock's in a heartbeat.

 

Bob: Thanks for coming here and sharing. I hope you stick around and contribute to some of the discussions. I know you would be able to provide some great insight on a lot of things! Time to take some of these kids to school!

 

Alan

 

[Shield]

Pedigreeman, please see my post in the general forum. I couldn't agree with you more...

[BLBcomics-migration]

I will probably hang out from time to time, depending on the potentials for flame wars, etc. I just felt compelled to set the record straight, from my horse's mouth, that anything after late summer 1945 simply is not possible for it to be bought and stored in what constitutes the Tom Reilly Collection.

 

That said, and i have said this before, i have nothing against 3rd party grading services. What i object to is a slabbed high grade is supposedly worth more than one not sealed up. Anybody can go to Wal-mart and acquire a $4 black light bult to check out for restoration. 99% of that type of artistry will show up under your personal black light bulb.

 

I talked with Heritage's John Petty yesterday.John was already aware of what was unfolding around this book, He told me this falls into Ed Jaster's pervue, so commentary shoud at this point be directed at him to pull the SAN FRANCISCO designation from that auction. CGC should make a public annouencement to Heritage that an error has been made.

 

When i talked with Steve Borock on Monday afternoon, he tried telling me that this Sensation 54's history had been tracked. I asked who supplied that data, but he demured, citing secracy concepts for protecting clients. What ever ANY BODY says about this book, one thing it is noit, is from the Tom Reilly Collection.

 

Me, i think a 9.6 is a 9.6 and therefore what ever price it might realize should have nothing to do with its fantasy-perceived provenence.

 

I told John it is just one book, and a small forest fire was building around the mistake which was made in designating this as some thing it is not. I feel reputation is on the line here because way too much energy is directed at these hundreds of "pedigree" collections being utiliaed to enhance mercantile potentials.

 

I am going to put some effort into locating my original file folder with the Tom Reilly collection parameter notes & list i wrote down many moons ago. In the late 1990s i transcribed that list onto a 250 MB ZIP DISC - and that will prove easier to locate in my piles of research material i have been compiling now for a decade as i compile my comics business history book.

 

So, soon, somewhere, i will get this list out into print. I was hoping it would appear in CBM under Gary Carter's watch, but for some unfathomable reason, he never printed it. I no longer care way - i sent it to him almost a decade ago. Circa 1995-97.

 

best

 

robert beerbohm

[Aman619]

I would humbly suggest that the old CBM audience you sought is now here on the boards. We'd love to see you post it here for us to read and learn.

[sborock]

"Looks like CGC is waffling heavily on what to do with this book. After giving me some mealy-mouthed non-response about exactly what he was going to talk to Heritage about, it appears as if Borock is ready to sweep this one under the rug. Don't hold your breath on this book getting pulled and relabelled."

 

I don't know what I did/said during our conversation to make you go on a rant like this but, the reason I did not and WON"T tell you what I will or won't do depends on Heritage, the consigners and other factors. When I told you I would be in touch with Heritage, I did not lie to you. We are trying (as I told you I would) to work something out. I am sorry you are not in the inner circle of CGC but you do not work here, you will get the info on what happened along with everybody else. As ALWAYS I will post what happens or does not happen in the case of both the GL and Sensation. We have already checked our records and done some "detective" work on who the submitters were and their paperwork. Things take time and, like I tell my 7 year old daughter, sometimes you need to have a little patience. We have certified thousands of pedigree books and most people hate the fact that we make phone calls and ask for more paperwork than they provided but, we do it anyway. We do not charge a fee for all the extra work we do to find out if a book is from a certain pedigree or not (Haspel pushes for a pedigree verification fee) and believe me, we take at least one pedigree name OFF of a submittters book every day. There are soooooo many bogus books out there that were sold as pedigrees by either thevies to novices, or by people who believed that what they "found" was from a certian pedigree, that it makes verification a big pain.

 

In the case of the GL, it was submitted when we first opened and by someone very trustworthy with paperwork of where they got it from. There is still some controversy about the Sensation, no matter what Bob says (and I like bob very much), but we are still working on it.

 

Once again, if I offended you somehow, I am sorry. I am also sorry that even after telling you I will look into it and do what I can, you have no patience to wait for results.

 

If nothing else, I have always been very open with you folks on the board and would appreciate the hanging of myself and/or CGC until after the results are in

[BLBcomics-migration]

Steve wrote, "There is still some controversy about the Sensation, no matter what Bob says (and I like bob very much), but we are still working on it."

 

And let me quickly add i like Steve and Mark H very much. Both are great guys trying to do the best they can, i believe.

 

And i just as quickly add in i do not consider myself a pedigree expert in any way shape or form (i actually think the whole idea silly, but that is something for another thread), however, and this is a big however, i feel i do know more than most regarding the parameters of the Tom Reilly Collection. Plain & Simple. Period.

 

There is no way there were any 1946 Tom Reilly Collection copies possible. Period.

 

and that should be the end of the story from having watched their provenence and collectibility unfold for over 30 years now.

 

Just like i knew for a fact the Superman 3 and 4 Mark H initially disputed back around circa 2000 or 2001, no matter they were lower in grade than were the later mostly immaculate conceptions of the rest of the collection, were also from Tom Reilly's collection.

 

I bought em from the heirs, i sold em to people up & down the west coast, i knew the fellow who owned the Superman 3 and 4 unbroken from when i sold them tohim in the spring of 1974 in my Comics & Comix outlet on Telegraph Ave in Berkeley to when they got sold about 5 years or so ago to Jaime Graham. Something i did not make a single penny one.

 

just like i know that this Sensation 54 as well as a high grade Spirit #6 Fall 1946 which has also come to my attention this past week are NOT from Tom Reilly's collection. Period.

 

Being in Berkeley with comic book stores from 1972 thru 1987, i saw a LOT of Gilboy G pencil notations come thru the door. And a LOT of high grade came thru from the local area for many years. The Gilboy Agency G does not make it so Joe

 

Just like i see Omaha distribution pencil notations here in Nebraska for 35 years now. I live maybe a half hour drive from where the Lamont Larsen collection lived in that barn before Joe Trichirichi ende up with it for a song and a dance.

 

But i do not claim any expertise in Lamont Larsen books. I did not buy them, then live with them, then sell them off one and two at a time like i did the Tom Reilly collection.

 

how much plainer can that be?

 

 

not me

 

respectively,

 

robert beerbohm,

i changed a couple typos

[PedigreeMan]

Squeaky wheel gets the oil, Steve.

 

And meanwhile the end of this Heritage auction continues to wind ever closer.

 

If your PM to me about this wasn't a blow off, I apologize. But I hope you re-read it and see how I could misconstrue it as such.

 

Alan

[sborock]

Squeaky wheel gets the oil, Steve.

 

And meanwhile the end of this Heritage auction continues to wind ever closer.

 

If your PM to me about this wasn't a blow off, I apologize. But I hope you re-read it and see how I could misconstrue it as such.

 

Alan

 

 

...and as I keep saying, I (and CGC) are working on this.

 

But please, like I said before, give time time.

 

Do you really believe I would come on here and stake my hard earned reputation on this, if I wasn't doing everything in my power to correct it? I don't want to have to change the initials of this company to cover up mistakes, I want the letters CGC to mean the same thing to me and the collecting community, as they did when we first started this company with the help of the trusted dealers and collectors who, to this day, still put their trust in us.

[BLBcomics-migration]

I found my original list of the Reilly collection and posted it in GOLD under the title Tom Reilly Collection Master List - enjoy

 

robert beerbohm

[PedigreeMan]

...and as I keep saying, I (and CGC) are working on this.

 

I believe you and am glad to hear this.

[sfilosa]

Thanks for doing all the leg work, and you can make a difference!!!

 

Now if I can just convince you that SA pedigrees do count?

[Forbush-Man]

Thanks for doing all the leg work, and you can make a difference!!!

 

Now if I can just convince you that SA pedigrees do count?

 

I believe pre 1963-65 collections, or collections which started before then, should count. Speculation started shortly thereafter. Just MHO.

[PedigreeMan]

Thanks for doing all the leg work, and you can make a difference!!!

 

Now if I can just convince you that SA pedigrees do count?

 

I believe pre 1963-65 collections, or collections which started before then, should count. Speculation started shortly thereafter. Just MHO.

 

Speculation has nothing to do with it. By the time speculation rolled around, the comic book market was pretty well matured.

 

I use the rise of organized fandom and the active, organized search for back issues as the cutoff point for "pedigree" designation. At that stage, keeping of new issues was becoming nothing special, and the notion that these four color rags held some value started to blossom. As a result, people like Edgar Church and Tom Reilly and Lamont Larson and Frank Blankis faded away, and were replaced with an early form of today's collector (i.e. all of us here). This happened when? Circa 1961? When did Alter Ego start? Or RBCC?

 

There's a lot more to it, but that's where I lay my foundation.

 

But in the end, I'm just another yahoo with an opinion.

 

Alan