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Is this medium killing itself?!

Started by Pedro1974.5,

131 posts in this topic

THB

THB

Posted
Posted
Are flippers "hoarding" and "causing an artificial rarity"? Isn't flipping the "art" of buying a hot book and "flipping" it for a profit immediately?

 

I think you issue is with "speculators" who are paying these high prices and hoarding these copies.

 

The flipper is just meeting the market demand.

 

And finally, what's the difference between a flipper and a dealer? Plenty of dealers flip books. I never hear an outcry at them. I buy plenty of collections and it's a lot of work.

 

Flipping moderns is one thing. Buying collections, organizing, research etc all takes time and effort. I may not set up at major cons, or have a store but the work isn't easy. I'm not complaining, I enjoy the work.

 

 

+ 1.

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ComicConnoisseur

ComicConnoisseur

Posted
Posted
I have a VGish FF45 since many years and happy with it, but for example my FF52 is at best a poor one (really loved comic). Wwould love to upgrade it, when i say upgrade have a F/VF nothing too fancy (9.0's an up). But came on the 8.0's are getting near the a grand an a half, the ragged copies of Hulk 181 fetch half a grand,... just ridiculous

 

Indeed flippers flip flippers and collectors that miss the boat, well, they wave and accept the holes in their respective collections.

 

I just think it keeps a lot of people away and even tend to leave a bitter taste in the mouth (or wallet) of longtime collectors/ fans.

 

The avengers 1st ultrons, visions, etc... (and i have these and nice shape), who can get near those prices (again i'm not talking about 9.0's and up)?!

 

Everything is just about money, money, money,...

 

it tends to fade the magic of being a fan/ collector.

 

sorry, end of rant

 

regards

 

I'm a run collector, and hate those dirty flippers, but I think you've missed the mark.

 

If you have an FF52, you're better off than a lot of people who would love to own your copy if it was priced fairly. It might not be in great shape, but the upgrade is a want rather than a need for you.

 

It's all about money, yes, but it always has been. When you started collecting, everything was worth something, and a few were worth more. You decided what was in your collecting budget, and you bought that. New collectors have to be smart and do the same.

 

The keys have spiked in price because of flippers hoarding copies and creating artificial rarity, yes. However, the common stuff that the flippers don't want has never been cheaper. In the 90's, I was paying good money for every single issue I wanted. Not so anymore. Relatively speaking, I figure the cost of putting together a run is probably the same as it's always been, there's just a bigger bullet to bite when you hit the big book.

 

Comic books are following the same path as coins and sports cards did.

In coins post 1909 they only want the key coins in the series, and variants(mistakes, low mintage) and sportcards the same they want only rookie cards and refractor cards(limited print run variants).

The days of someone putting together a run of FF #1 to #102 are over.

They just want 9.8s, movie hype keys and variant covers for the most part.

Follow what happened in coins and sportscards, and you will see comic books are now headed down the same path. It`s not about the artist or good stories anymore,but the good flip. :(

 

This isn't directed at you as much as the topic...

 

I don't get why people are so doom and gloom about the industry and the market. As has been stated, comics are at an all time high. The movies and box-office have shown that there is a market- a huge market even- and people are coming into the hobby. Many of them are looking for that nostalgia factor, but they are still coming back. Almost monthly we have a poster say they are getting back into the hobby now that they have expendable income.

 

At the same time, the modern market is doing well. Sales last year were at a 10 year high. Sure some of that was because the cover price has gotten inflated a bit, but people are still willing to pay the price. Some of it might be driven by the variant flippers, but if those people want to pay the price, let them.

 

Why I'm responding to you though ComicConnoisseur, is the notion that books aren't being driven by good writers. I just can't disagree with that more. Look at the success of Kirkman. He puts his name on something and it sells in the top 30. Look at Thief of Thieves: when he was on the title it sold. Once he left and the quality left with him, it dropped off. Look at someone like Bendis or Brubaker. They are successful because they write quality stories (I know Bendis is polarizing).

 

The market isn't driven by the character name anymore, but rather the creators on the front. Heck if Rucka's name is on the cover, I'm buying the book.

 

I get that there are similarities to the 90s, but at the same time there are huge differences. Comics are a billion dollar business now with movies and shows.

 

This isn't the 90s and the fall. If there is a fall, it might be a correction. As long as Avengers is selling, then I don't see a collapse coming. As long as The Walking Dead is soaring, I don't see a collapse. As long as DC is trying their hardest to put out quality, competitive movies, then I just don't see a collapse coming.

 

Heck even yesterday at lunch suddenly the conversation turned to iZombie. I wanted to mention that it was a comic, but the conversation was more about music. One of my coworkers is reading TWD because of the show. It is gratifying to sit at work as adults and talk about comics.

 

Why when it might be the true Golden Age of comics do we have to be so negative? Why do we need a pessimistic thread every week? Why don't we create a "Pessimism Sub Forum"?

Yes, Kirkman is something special, as well as the Walking Dead, but they`re the anomaly in modern 2015 comics. :o

For the most part it`s all gimmick variant number one covers now. When Walking Dead came out in 2003 by Kirkman the comic book industry was in the good story telling mode, heck even Civil War and Identity Crisis were good back then. Somehow though the comic book industry fell back into the gimmick mode for sales.

 

Why the doom and gloom?

There will be another backlash soon.

I`m seeing it slowly. The high cover prices and all the multiple universe crossovers. Long-time fans I know have lost or are losing interest.

We can talk all we want about how the movies did blockbuster business, but in the end they really didn`t bring in many new customers.

They blew a golden opportunity to bring in new readers.

So let them keep selling the gimmicks until the crash.

They would have been better to focus on good stories then sell the latest variant.

What I see is a big transition to digital because of this.

The gimmick comics will destroy the comic book industry sales so bad that it will be up to the digital sales to save them, than the focus will go back to good stories.

 

So the irony will be these gimmick covers will eventually push the transition of print comics to digital much faster than expected do to a need of sales.

 

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ChrisInBaltimore

ChrisInBaltimore

Posted
Posted

Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

For every big event there is a solid book. They might not be breaking sales records, but they are quality stories that the market responds to. All the books I've mentioned are written by top talent.

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oakman29

oakman29

Posted
Posted
Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

For every big event there is a solid book. They might not be breaking sales records, but they are quality stories that the market responds to. All the books I've mentioned are written by top talent.

 

Exactly Chris. I go to my local LCS all the time,and there are a ton of kids buying,reading comics.

The naysayers cry that it's the beginning of the end,but like you said earlier. We are in a new golden age of comics,a time where media,comics have come together.

Though I must admit the variant craze will mislead some people,specially when they try to sell.

Everything is cyclical,so we must always remember our comic crash in the early 90's so we don't repeat what happened. Hell even my two grandsons are getting heavy into comics and the characters. I see a bright future,don't spend so much time worrying about comics demise,enjoy our time we earned it.

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Pedro1974.5

Pedro1974.5

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Posted
I have a VGish FF45 since many years and happy with it, but for example my FF52 is at best a poor one (really loved comic). Wwould love to upgrade it, when i say upgrade have a F/VF nothing too fancy (9.0's an up). But came on the 8.0's are getting near the a grand an a half, the ragged copies of Hulk 181 fetch half a grand,... just ridiculous

 

Indeed flippers flip flippers and collectors that miss the boat, well, they wave and accept the holes in their respective collections.

 

I just think it keeps a lot of people away and even tend to leave a bitter taste in the mouth (or wallet) of longtime collectors/ fans.

 

The avengers 1st ultrons, visions, etc... (and i have these and nice shape), who can get near those prices (again i'm not talking about 9.0's and up)?!

 

Everything is just about money, money, money,...

 

it tends to fade the magic of being a fan/ collector.

 

sorry, end of rant

 

regards

 

I'm a run collector, and hate those dirty flippers, but I think you've missed the mark.

 

If you have an FF52, you're better off than a lot of people who would love to own your copy if it was priced fairly. It might not be in great shape, but the upgrade is a want rather than a need for you.

 

It's all about money, yes, but it always has been. When you started collecting, everything was worth something, and a few were worth more. You decided what was in your collecting budget, and you bought that. New collectors have to be smart and do the same.

 

The keys have spiked in price because of flippers hoarding copies and creating artificial rarity, yes. However, the common stuff that the flippers don't want has never been cheaper. In the 90's, I was paying good money for every single issue I wanted. Not so anymore. Relatively speaking, I figure the cost of putting together a run is probably the same as it's always been, there's just a bigger bullet to bite when you hit the big book.

 

Comic books are following the same path as coins and sports cards did.

In coins post 1909 they only want the key coins in the series, and variants(mistakes, low mintage) and sportcards the same they want only rookie cards and refractor cards(limited print run variants).

The days of someone putting together a run of FF #1 to #102 are over.

They just want 9.8s, movie hype keys and variant covers for the most part.

Follow what happened in coins and sportscards, and you will see comic books are now headed down the same path. It`s not about the artist or good stories anymore,but the good flip. :(

 

This isn't directed at you as much as the topic...

 

I don't get why people are so doom and gloom about the industry and the market. As has been stated, comics are at an all time high. The movies and box-office have shown that there is a market- a huge market even- and people are coming into the hobby. Many of them are looking for that nostalgia factor, but they are still coming back. Almost monthly we have a poster say they are getting back into the hobby now that they have expendable income.

 

At the same time, the modern market is doing well. Sales last year were at a 10 year high. Sure some of that was because the cover price has gotten inflated a bit, but people are still willing to pay the price. Some of it might be driven by the variant flippers, but if those people want to pay the price, let them.

 

Why I'm responding to you though ComicConnoisseur, is the notion that books aren't being driven by good writers. I just can't disagree with that more. Look at the success of Kirkman. He puts his name on something and it sells in the top 30. Look at Thief of Thieves: when he was on the title it sold. Once he left and the quality left with him, it dropped off. Look at someone like Bendis or Brubaker. They are successful because they write quality stories (I know Bendis is polarizing).

 

The market isn't driven by the character name anymore, but rather the creators on the front. Heck if Rucka's name is on the cover, I'm buying the book.

 

I get that there are similarities to the 90s, but at the same time there are huge differences. Comics are a billion dollar business now with movies and shows.

 

This isn't the 90s and the fall. If there is a fall, it might be a correction. As long as Avengers is selling, then I don't see a collapse coming. As long as The Walking Dead is soaring, I don't see a collapse. As long as DC is trying their hardest to put out quality, competitive movies, then I just don't see a collapse coming.

 

Heck even yesterday at lunch suddenly the conversation turned to iZombie. I wanted to mention that it was a comic, but the conversation was more about music. One of my coworkers is reading TWD because of the show. It is gratifying to sit at work as adults and talk about comics.

 

Why when it might be the true Golden Age of comics do we have to be so negative? Why do we need a pessimistic thread every week? Why don't we create a "Pessimism Sub Forum"?

Yes, Kirkman is something special, as well as the Walking Dead, but they`re the anomaly in modern 2015 comics. :o

For the most part it`s all gimmick variant number one covers now. When Walking Dead came out in 2003 by Kirkman the comic book industry was in the good story telling mode, heck even Civil War and Identity Crisis were good back then. Somehow though the comic book industry fell back into the gimmick mode for sales.

 

Why the doom and gloom?

There will be another backlash soon.

I`m seeing it slowly. The high cover prices and all the multiple universe crossovers. Long-time fans I know have lost or are losing interest.

We can talk all we want about how the movies did blockbuster business, but in the end they really didn`t bring in many new customers.

They blew a golden opportunity to bring in new readers.

So let them keep selling the gimmicks until the crash.

They would have been better to focus on good stories then sell the latest variant.

What I see is a big transition to digital because of this.

The gimmick comics will destroy the comic book industry sales so bad that it will be up to the digital sales to save them, than the focus will go back to good stories.

 

So the irony will be these gimmick covers will eventually push the transition of print comics to digital much faster than expected do to a need of sales.

 

t everyone

 

the "gimmicks/ variant stuff" (and i'm not saying it's best or worst way to "live" the hobby) do you consider them (impact Wise/ type of phenomen) the same as the shift the movies have given on the medium and the way people collect?

 

Because the price of a lot of stuff (it goes way beyond the FF45) simply has exploded. Comics that could be found (and maybe i'm exagerating) easly (the ant man on avengers, namorita, 1st second tier characters, miss marvel 1, etc...) are now several times higher.

 

Is this phenomen a "new" way trend on the collecting ex: a character is rumoured on a tv flick/ movie and everything goes off the roof, etc...

is it just pure "speculation" or more than that?

 

regards

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Pedro1974.5

Pedro1974.5

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Posted
Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

For every big event there is a solid book. They might not be breaking sales records, but they are quality stories that the market responds to. All the books I've mentioned are written by top talent.

 

Exactly Chris. I go to my local LCS all the time,and there are a ton of kids buying,reading comics.

The naysayers cry that it's the beginning of the end,but like you said earlier. We are in a new golden age of comics,a time where media,comics have come together.

Though I must admit the variant craze will mislead some people,specially when they try to sell.

Everything is cyclical,so we must always remember our comic crash in the early 90's so we don't repeat what happened. Hell even my two grandsons are getting heavy into comics and the characters. I see a bright future,don't spend so much time worrying about comics demise,enjoy our time we earned it.

 

Indeed it's great to see "new blood" on a LCS, or kids having comics in hand, etc... but my initial post was more thinking on how these "new fans" might be able to collect on a more traditional way (in the lack of a better expression) as this long time fan who's more than happy to have good looking medium grade copies of such great stuff. When and if they want to start collecting "old stuff", even lower grade copies, there are several ones that will be simply out of reach (at least for the majority of them).

 

I even bought several tpb's in the last decade to keep up for some stuff, which i enjoy reading and (with the advantage) of leaving them around the house without worries, but the "real stuff" is holding, feeling and sniffing an "original comic".

So "when i thought i was out, they pull me in"...

 

Maybe i'm entering on an "old age vision" of the medium... old geezer before time!

 

thanks for all the input gang

 

regards

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ChrisInBaltimore

ChrisInBaltimore

Posted
Posted
Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

For every big event there is a solid book. They might not be breaking sales records, but they are quality stories that the market responds to. All the books I've mentioned are written by top talent.

 

Exactly Chris. I go to my local LCS all the time,and there are a ton of kids buying,reading comics.

The naysayers cry that it's the beginning of the end,but like you said earlier. We are in a new golden age of comics,a time where media,comics have come together.

Though I must admit the variant craze will mislead some people,specially when they try to sell.

Everything is cyclical,so we must always remember our comic crash in the early 90's so we don't repeat what happened. Hell even my two grandsons are getting heavy into comics and the characters. I see a bright future,don't spend so much time worrying about comics demise,enjoy our time we earned it.

 

Indeed it's great to see "new blood" on a LCS, or kids having comics in hand, etc... but my initial post was more thinking on how these "new fans" might be able to collect on a more traditional way (in the lack of a better expression) as this long time fan who's more than happy to have good looking medium grade copies of such great stuff. When and if they want to start collecting "old stuff", even lower grade copies, there are several ones that will be simply out of reach (at least for the majority of them).

 

I even bought several tpb's in the last decade to keep up for some stuff, which i enjoy reading and (with the advantage) of leaving them around the house without worries, but the "real stuff" is holding, feeling and sniffing an "original comic".

So "when i thought i was out, they pull me in"...

 

Maybe i'm entering on an "old age vision" of the medium... old geezer before time!

 

thanks for all the input gang

 

regards

 

As a younger collected (I'm 29), I sort of see your point here. I always joke with my 3 year old that he doesn't want to collect Batman comics cause Tec 27 is and will always be far out of reach.

 

Your post is also why I think views on restoration are changing. Young collectors are beginning to see it as a way to obtain a nice presenting book at a fraction of the cost. I recently acquired a low grade copy of ASM 1 (I've mentioned this a lot- I'm excited). I was able to put some money into it and will soon have a grail that looks nice that I'd never be able to have otherwise.

 

There are other things though that excite me. Now that I've gotten to the point where my ASM run is getting pricey (I'm only missing issues below 19), I've turned my attention to other things. I've been in the hunt for Invincible issues and only have 4 left to complete my run. I've enjoyed watching for sales at local stores and digging through their back issues boxes. I was ecstatic during Easter weekend to find huge chunk of the run at my LCS for 70% off.

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted
Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

I seriously have no :censored: idea what you're talking about.

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ChrisInBaltimore

ChrisInBaltimore

Posted
Posted
Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

I seriously have no :censored: idea what you're talking about.

 

Your loss (thumbs u

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted
Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

I seriously have no :censored: idea what you're talking about.

 

Your loss (thumbs u

 

No, my monetary and IQ gain.

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Pedro1974.5

Pedro1974.5

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Posted
But my slabs are safe from being killed, right?!?!

I mean, they're in a protective case...So they aren't killing themselves...are they?

-Terry

 

sarcasm aside i don't know what you're talking about.

 

and congrats on those hellboy's nice covers

 

regards

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Xela

Xela

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Posted
Im a little confused by the "hobby" you are referring to...

 

Is it comic book collecting in general? If so then no, entry into the hobby is as cheap as a book from the dollar bin, and I spent many years building a fun collection of comics I enjoyed reading from those bins.

 

Is it high end comic book collecting?, then sure its a self selecting group with a relatively high price for joining. But that's like complaining that collecting Lamborginis is too expensive of a hobby.

 

We are enjoying a renaissance in the last decade of comic book access between the TPB/HC publishing market and the growth of the digital availability of comics. We have more access to more books (to read content-wise) than we ever have. So it's a great time to become a comic book READER.

 

Everyone finds their way to enjoy this hobby. I like GA Sci-Fi. My pocket book does not allow for purchasing high-end EC comics for hundreds or thousands of dollars a pop. It does allow me to buy collected editions and collect a title like Space Adventures in high grade, thus I get to enjoy the hobby!

 

+1

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FineCollector

FineCollector

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Posted
Are flippers "hoarding" and "causing an artificial rarity"? Isn't flipping the "art" of buying a hot book and "flipping" it for a profit immediately?

 

I think you issue is with "speculators" who are paying these high prices and hoarding these copies.

 

The flipper is just meeting the market demand.

 

And finally, what's the difference between a flipper and a dealer? Plenty of dealers flip books. I never hear an outcry at them. I buy plenty of collections and it's a lot of work.

 

Flipping moderns is one thing. Buying collections, organizing, research etc all takes time and effort. I may not set up at major cons, or have a store but the work isn't easy. I'm not complaining, I enjoy the work.

 

 

I don't want that discussion to derail the thread, but the Cliff's notes version: flippers only see the value in a handful of books, and devalue the rest by flushing them as insignificant and not worth their time. Dealers carry and sell everything.

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FlyingDonut

FlyingDonut

Posted
Posted
Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

I seriously have no :censored: idea what you're talking about.

 

Your loss (thumbs u

 

No, my monetary and IQ gain.

 

Actually no. The books he's talking about are all uniformly very very good, and Saga is spectacular. You need to open your mind a little.

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