Is this medium killing itself?!

[1Cool]

I think the only way the market is killing itself is no one is remembering the past to avoid mistakes made way back when. The current variant cover craze reminds me exactly of the 90s where everyone was chasing after the cool cover and the inside of the book didn't matter at all. Way to many similarities for my liking. The modern variant cover market seems to be an emperor without clothes but I guess time will tell.

 

The back issue market reminds me of the black and white / wizard hype crash. Everyone is running around searching for the 1st appearance of Squirrel Girl or whoever even though the book was not good and there really was no reason to want the book. Ever tried to read 95% of the black and white craze books? Terrible stuff but we all needed to own a copy because Wizard was saying books were due to explode.

 

The current market seems like a combination of all the crazy bubbles we have had in the market rolled into one.

 

 

[1Cool]

Are flippers "hoarding" and "causing an artificial rarity"? Isn't flipping the "art" of buying a hot book and "flipping" it for a profit immediately?

 

I think you issue is with "speculators" who are paying these high prices and hoarding these copies.

 

The flipper is just meeting the market demand.

 

And finally, what's the difference between a flipper and a dealer? Plenty of dealers flip books. I never hear an outcry at them. I buy plenty of collections and it's a lot of work.

 

Flipping moderns is one thing. Buying collections, organizing, research etc all takes time and effort. I may not set up at major cons, or have a store but the work isn't easy. I'm not complaining, I enjoy the work.

 

 

I don't want that discussion to derail the thread, but the Cliff's notes version: flippers only see the value in a handful of books, and devalue the rest by flushing them as insignificant and not worth their time. Dealers carry and sell everything.

 

Flippers see the value in every book available the same as a dealer. The flipper just does not have the storage or means to clear out the "drek" from a collection for $0.25 a piece like a store owner or dealer. Flippers will flip anything they can make money on but the opportunities to make money on lower end books is much easier for a dealer with a store or con booth.

[BarryAllen]

Is Saga an anomaly?

 

What about the critical success of Hawkeye a few years ago?

 

Mark Waid's run on Daredevil?

 

What about Superior Spider-Man? I'm not a huge Slott fan, but there were tons of comments from people saying they weren't usual Spidey readers but they were enjoying the book.

 

What about current runs of Star Wars and Batman? They are selling well and quality books with variant covers. I've been amazed by the Star Wars book.

 

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Your loss (thumbs u

 

No, my monetary and IQ gain.

 

Actually no. The books he's talking about are all uniformly very very good, and Saga is spectacular. You need to open your mind a little.

 

I personally didn't like Saga, but Batman and Superior Spider-Man are/were great. I know Saga is really popular at the LCS I frequent, along with a number of other modern books (East of West, Sex Criminals, Invincible, The Wicked and the Divine, etc)....

 

:shrug:

 

I think the medium will be fine, it will just transition to digital long term. Hopefully it gets cheaper as it turns the corner though, $3.99 for a new digital copy seems silly when the overhead is so much smaller than a printed one.

 

Regardless - I think the question that this eventually devolves into is: whether or not the modern readers turn into collectors and more importantly - collectors of older books. My personal answer: not a rate that will sustain today's market prices.

 

But the hobby, it doesn't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon.

[mystrymachine]

My collecting is focused on fine silver age books but I have noticed a steeper difference in price lately for a fine book compared to a vg.

For example, many silver age books that go for 50/60 dollars in vg are being listed at around 250 in fine. And when I'm looking for something in the 150 range I just can't find much of anything that is actually worth my money.

It's been much harder for me to find books that are actually worth the asking price on eBay, which is where I usually browse for back issues, and I would say that holding books hostage at high prices frustrates collectors who are not looking to flip the book six months after purchasing it.

[Pedro1974.5]

this actual situation has a bit of an irony on the possibility that if you have a nice collection and sell it now at a slow pace, maybe you can afford to buy one mid grade mega key (aka AF15, not Action 1, ).

The thought passed by my mind several times but not having time to do it and really love what i have has stoped me several times from doing it.

 

A few weeks ago i started to gather some runs i'm "less fond off", mostly because i have very few comics of it (early Thor's by Kirby), started to read and look at the art and said for myself "how can i sell this beauty?!".

Of course if there was an emergency or something i wouldn't think twice, but like this, there's too much love for these funy books!

 

regards

[Pedro1974.5]

My collecting is focused on fine silver age books but I have noticed a steeper difference in price lately for a fine book compared to a vg.

For example, many silver age books that go for 50/60 dollars in vg are being listed at around 250 in fine. And when I'm looking for something in the 150 range I just can't find much of anything that is actually worth my money.

It's been much harder for me to find books that are actually worth the asking price on eBay, which is where I usually browse for back issues, and I would say that holding books hostage at high prices frustrates collectors who are not looking to flip the book six months after purchasing it.

 

i see where you're coming from (even if eBay isn't the best reference, mostly to their buy it now surreal prices).

 

in the early 2000's i did a price spreadsheet for the majority of my stuff, and seeing for example some early avengers "priced" at around 50$ (in the solid VF grade) and seeing copies being sold here, at the same grade for 4 or 5 times of these values, makes my head spin...

 

I even passed (unfornutelly) a nice FF52 (F/ VF) on a LCS last year for less than 300$, and now the store owner just changed "a little" the price tag, simply doubling it and a little more!

Don't know if someone will get it, but this is like printing your own money and everyone seems to go along, no?

 

I would gladly see my collections value decrease a lot if that would meant to be able to have more flexability to complete my runs.

 

regards

 

[squidmo2000]

[FineCollector]

Are flippers "hoarding" and "causing an artificial rarity"? Isn't flipping the "art" of buying a hot book and "flipping" it for a profit immediately?

 

I think you issue is with "speculators" who are paying these high prices and hoarding these copies.

 

The flipper is just meeting the market demand.

 

And finally, what's the difference between a flipper and a dealer? Plenty of dealers flip books. I never hear an outcry at them. I buy plenty of collections and it's a lot of work.

 

Flipping moderns is one thing. Buying collections, organizing, research etc all takes time and effort. I may not set up at major cons, or have a store but the work isn't easy. I'm not complaining, I enjoy the work.

 

 

I don't want that discussion to derail the thread, but the Cliff's notes version: flippers only see the value in a handful of books, and devalue the rest by flushing them as insignificant and not worth their time. Dealers carry and sell everything.

 

Flippers see the value in every book available the same as a dealer. The flipper just does not have the storage or means to clear out the "drek" from a collection for $0.25 a piece like a store owner or dealer. Flippers will flip anything they can make money on but the opportunities to make money on lower end books is much easier for a dealer with a store or con booth.

 

So you're speaking for all flippers? Fine, I'll speak for all collectors.

 

I know that the justification makes sense to you, but I'm still not hearing a good reason why I benefit from having you as a middle man. What do I gain from you scouring conventions asking for a 10% discount on the hottest 20 books just so you can sell at a 20% surplus? "Meat on the bone" is a phrase that only serves the people buying books who don't really need them. Pricing would be more robust and the industry would be heathier without you.

 

[1Cool]

Are flippers "hoarding" and "causing an artificial rarity"? Isn't flipping the "art" of buying a hot book and "flipping" it for a profit immediately?

 

I think you issue is with "speculators" who are paying these high prices and hoarding these copies.

 

The flipper is just meeting the market demand.

 

And finally, what's the difference between a flipper and a dealer? Plenty of dealers flip books. I never hear an outcry at them. I buy plenty of collections and it's a lot of work.

 

Flipping moderns is one thing. Buying collections, organizing, research etc all takes time and effort. I may not set up at major cons, or have a store but the work isn't easy. I'm not complaining, I enjoy the work.

 

 

I don't want that discussion to derail the thread, but the Cliff's notes version: flippers only see the value in a handful of books, and devalue the rest by flushing them as insignificant and not worth their time. Dealers carry and sell everything.

 

Flippers see the value in every book available the same as a dealer. The flipper just does not have the storage or means to clear out the "drek" from a collection for $0.25 a piece like a store owner or dealer. Flippers will flip anything they can make money on but the opportunities to make money on lower end books is much easier for a dealer with a store or con booth.

 

So you're speaking for all flippers? Fine, I'll speak for all collectors.

 

I know that the justification makes sense to you, but I'm still not hearing a good reason why I benefit from having you as a middle man. What do I gain from you scouring conventions asking for a 10% discount on the hottest 20 books just so you can sell at a 20% surplus? "Meat on the bone" is a phrase that only serves the people buying books who don't really need them. Pricing would be more robust and the industry would be heathier without you.

 

 

How would prices be more robust without the quick flipper in the market? Quick flippers keep the dealers on their toes constantly updating the price of their stock or someone will snatch it up and flip it. I can see how it can be irritating since flippers do increase the price collectors pay because there are very few books with a lot of meat on the bone when a collector goes to buy the book but that's life. I wish I could buy Florida oranges from the groves or buy Alaskan Salmon from the fisherman but there are always middle men along the way.

[Mr Sneeze]

As a collector who started putting together a collection of silver and bronze age books I used to own when I was younger - in much better condition of course, I have to say how relieved I am to have slipped under the wire with a lot of issues. I would not buy again what I have now at todays prices. If I started today this would effect my entry into the back issue market but would not hinder all the newer purchases - moderns/masterworks etc.

 

Is the hobby killing itself? I don't know but there are a lot of great books out there for cheap if you're interested in them. Some of my favorite books I would have a hard time giving away so it's not all that bad. I have to say though that it does seem to be a great time to be selling a collection - I wonder if people will look back at this time as the time they should have sold. For me, I collect what I like so I won't mind being stuck with it if that's how it turns out.

[ItsJustRyan]

All of life is a big money grab.

 

It is just the way you go about grabbing it.

this

[BarryAllen]

Are flippers "hoarding" and "causing an artificial rarity"? Isn't flipping the "art" of buying a hot book and "flipping" it for a profit immediately?

 

I think you issue is with "speculators" who are paying these high prices and hoarding these copies.

 

The flipper is just meeting the market demand.

 

And finally, what's the difference between a flipper and a dealer? Plenty of dealers flip books. I never hear an outcry at them. I buy plenty of collections and it's a lot of work.

 

Flipping moderns is one thing. Buying collections, organizing, research etc all takes time and effort. I may not set up at major cons, or have a store but the work isn't easy. I'm not complaining, I enjoy the work.

 

 

I don't want that discussion to derail the thread, but the Cliff's notes version: flippers only see the value in a handful of books, and devalue the rest by flushing them as insignificant and not worth their time. Dealers carry and sell everything.

 

Flippers see the value in every book available the same as a dealer. The flipper just does not have the storage or means to clear out the "drek" from a collection for $0.25 a piece like a store owner or dealer. Flippers will flip anything they can make money on but the opportunities to make money on lower end books is much easier for a dealer with a store or con booth.

 

So you're speaking for all flippers? Fine, I'll speak for all collectors.

 

I know that the justification makes sense to you, but I'm still not hearing a good reason why I benefit from having you as a middle man. What do I gain from you scouring conventions asking for a 10% discount on the hottest 20 books just so you can sell at a 20% surplus? "Meat on the bone" is a phrase that only serves the people buying books who don't really need them. Pricing would be more robust and the industry would be heathier without you.

 

 

How would prices be more robust without the quick flipper in the market? Quick flippers keep the dealers on their toes constantly updating the price of their stock or someone will snatch it up and flip it. I can see how it can be irritating since flippers do increase the price collectors pay because there are very few books with a lot of meat on the bone when a collector goes to buy the book but that's life. I wish I could buy Florida oranges from the groves or buy Alaskan Salmon from the fisherman but there are always middle men along the way.

 

In fairness your argument is fairly flimsy. Middle-men (arguably avoidable or not) are widely recognized as adding cost to the system. Sometimes they are necessary as distributors to ensure the product is made available to people without access normally (i.e. your example of Florida oranges and Alaskan salmon) but I don't think you can justify utility in comic flipping. With modern tools like the internet (eBay, ComicLink, etc) all comic flippers do is make comics more expensive to collectors than they would have been otherwise.

 

Arguing they exist because they always have in a given "market" doesn't mean they add any value whatsoever.

 

I don't know you personally and this isn't a judgement on you, but comic flippers are purely opportunists that make collecting more difficult and hurt the hobby for selfish reasons (i.e. their own profit).

 

:shrug:

 

[KPR Comics]

Is this medium killing itself?!

 

Yes. When I see a sales thread with 5-7 copies of FF 45, yes.

 

Flippers flipping to flippers are killing this hobby.

 

No affordable copies left for the collectors. Yet dealers have a bunch of them.

 

 

Ditto

 

I have a VGish FF45 since many years and happy with it, but for example my FF52 is at best a poor one (really loved comic). Wwould love to upgrade it, when i say upgrade have a F/VF nothing too fancy (9.0's an up). But came on the 8.0's are getting near the a grand an a half, the ragged copies of Hulk 181 fetch half a grand,... just ridiculous

 

Indeed flippers flip flippers and collectors that miss the boat, well, they wave and accept the holes in their respective collections.

 

I just think it keeps a lot of people away and even tend to leave a bitter taste in the mouth (or wallet) of longtime collectors/ fans.

 

The avengers 1st ultrons, visions, etc... (and i have these and nice shape), who can get near those prices (again i'm not talking about 9.0's and up)?!

 

Everything is just about money, money, money,...

 

it tends to fade the magic of being a fan/ collector.

 

sorry, end of rant

 

regards

Why are you waiting until now to buy an FF 45 or Avengers 55, 57? Did you suddenly realize these were valuable and now you want them? Because a couple of years ago you could've gotten them at a very reasonable price. But to say that the hobby is killing itself because of dealers, flippers, dead kennedys or black flags just because a literal handful of key books per title have jumped in price ignores the plain fact that 95% or more of any silver and Bronze Age run is cheap as sheet. avengers, cheap. Iron man, twice as cheap. Thor? Good golly, even a 126 can be had in great shape for relative peanuts. Daredevil, please. Out of over 1,000 issues of these titles, there are less than 30 keys, so go ahead and pick up the other 970+ issues and by the time you're done, the prices on these must haves will have had time to settle into their fair market value. Whatever that is.

[kav]

Yep

That's what I do

Bought Thor 165 when it was cheap so ya never know

[kav]

Ps this medium is making me thirsty

[lizards2]

Is this medium killing itself?!

 

Yes. When I see a sales thread with 5-7 copies of FF 45, yes.

 

Flippers flipping to flippers are killing this hobby.

 

No affordable copies left for the collectors. Yet dealers have a bunch of them.

 

 

Ditto

 

I have a VGish FF45 since many years and happy with it, but for example my FF52 is at best a poor one (really loved comic). Wwould love to upgrade it, when i say upgrade have a F/VF nothing too fancy (9.0's an up). But came on the 8.0's are getting near the a grand an a half, the ragged copies of Hulk 181 fetch half a grand,... just ridiculous

 

Indeed flippers flip flippers and collectors that miss the boat, well, they wave and accept the holes in their respective collections.

 

I just think it keeps a lot of people away and even tend to leave a bitter taste in the mouth (or wallet) of longtime collectors/ fans.

 

The avengers 1st ultrons, visions, etc... (and i have these and nice shape), who can get near those prices (again i'm not talking about 9.0's and up)?!

 

Everything is just about money, money, money,...

 

it tends to fade the magic of being a fan/ collector.

 

sorry, end of rant

 

regards

Why are you waiting until now to buy an FF 45 or Avengers 55, 57? Did you suddenly realize these were valuable and now you want them? Because a couple of years ago you could've gotten them at a very reasonable price. But to say that the hobby is killing itself because of dealers, flippers, dead kennedys or black flags just because a literal handful of key books per title have jumped in price ignores the plain fact that 95% or more of any silver and Bronze Age run is cheap as sheet. avengers, cheap. Iron man, twice as cheap. Thor? Good golly, even a 126 can be had in great shape for relative peanuts. Daredevil, please. Out of over 1,000 issues of these titles, there are less than 30 keys, so go ahead and pick up the other 970+ issues and by the time you're done, the prices on these must haves will have had time to settle into their fair market value. Whatever that is.

 

My copy off FF 45 has CT and I had always wanted to upgrade it for probably the past 20 years - I just never found the right copy. Now it will likely never happen. Why? Because it has been priced into the stratosphere by greed. I don't see the book holding the value either, so maybe 5-10 years from now, I'll be able to afford a nice copy again. If you have dealer/flipper upon flipper/dealer with 10 copies each, where is the demand for this book? Doesn't seem to be from the collector base. Flippers flipping to f'n flippers.

[com1cbook]

Is this medium killing itself?!

 

Yes. When I see a sales thread with 5-7 copies of FF 45, yes.

 

Flippers flipping to flippers are killing this hobby.

 

No affordable copies left for the collectors. Yet dealers have a bunch of them.

 

 

I am late to the thread, but this is extremely well spoken.

Many of us have seen this cycle more play itself out than once, but flippers flipping to flippers is almost always the cause.

 

I am holding my cash ion the sidelines right now... and waiting for some good deals.

 

[IntoAnother]

Are dealers not flippers? Flippers with a badge if you will but flippers nonetheless no?

[rodan57]

If you have dealer/flipper upon flipper/dealer with 10 copies each, where is the demand for this book? Doesn't seem to be from the collector base. Flippers flipping to f'n flippers.

 

This is what I have often thought. It's not like there's movie goers out there buying their first comic book.

 

The hobby is feasting upon itself.

[Quicksilver Signs]

Is this medium killing itself?!

 

Yes. When I see a sales thread with 5-7 copies of FF 45, yes.

 

Flippers flipping to flippers are killing this hobby.

 

No affordable copies left for the collectors. Yet dealers have a bunch of them.

 

 

Ditto

 

I have a VGish FF45 since many years and happy with it, but for example my FF52 is at best a poor one (really loved comic). Wwould love to upgrade it, when i say upgrade have a F/VF nothing too fancy (9.0's an up). But came on the 8.0's are getting near the a grand an a half, the ragged copies of Hulk 181 fetch half a grand,... just ridiculous

 

Indeed flippers flip flippers and collectors that miss the boat, well, they wave and accept the holes in their respective collections.

 

I just think it keeps a lot of people away and even tend to leave a bitter taste in the mouth (or wallet) of longtime collectors/ fans.

 

The avengers 1st ultrons, visions, etc... (and i have these and nice shape), who can get near those prices (again i'm not talking about 9.0's and up)?!

 

Everything is just about money, money, money,...

 

it tends to fade the magic of being a fan/ collector.

 

sorry, end of rant

 

regards

Why are you waiting until now to buy an FF 45 or Avengers 55, 57? Did you suddenly realize these were valuable and now you want them? Because a couple of years ago you could've gotten them at a very reasonable price. But to say that the hobby is killing itself because of dealers, flippers, dead kennedys or black flags just because a literal handful of key books per title have jumped in price ignores the plain fact that 95% or more of any silver and Bronze Age run is cheap as sheet. avengers, cheap. Iron man, twice as cheap. Thor? Good golly, even a 126 can be had in great shape for relative peanuts. Daredevil, please. Out of over 1,000 issues of these titles, there are less than 30 keys, so go ahead and pick up the other 970+ issues and by the time you're done, the prices on these must haves will have had time to settle into their fair market value. Whatever that is.

 

My copy off FF 45 has CT and I had always wanted to upgrade it for probably the past 20 years - I just never found the right copy. Now it will likely never happen. Why? Because it has been priced into the stratosphere by greed. I don't see the book holding the value either, so maybe 5-10 years from now, I'll be able to afford a nice copy again. If you have dealer/flipper upon flipper/dealer with 10 copies each, where is the demand for this book? Doesn't seem to be from the collector base. Flippers flipping to f'n flippers.

 

In 20 years you couldn't find a high grade copy of FF 45? That's hard to believe considering up until a couple years ago it was a nothing book. More likely you passed on it multiple times thinking you could get a nice copy any time. It was easily attainable on ebay at any given day. I bought a high grade copy 4 years ago for 90 bucks just to fill a hole in my collection not because I cared 2 about the Inhumans. As far as I knew nobody cared about Inhumans until there was movie buzz.