Let's argue about diversity in comics and what censorship is here

[Prince Namor]

For April 2015, the Top 11 (ELEVEN!!!) individual titles in the Diamond Top 300 for the month were over 100,000 copies sold.

 

The Top 20 titles averaged 103, 272 copies sold.

 

That was before Secret Wars #1 was released.

 

It's been a LONG time since I've seen numbers like that.

 

vs

 

People who aren't reading the books anyway who are unhappy with the way they hear it's been going.

 

 

 

It generally seems that the people who most want it to stay the same have long since stopped buying it anyway.

 

 

Sales are up. Up as high as they've been in almost 2 decades.

 

It's going to make them think they're doing something right.

[Prince Namor]

 

This book wasn't an immediate hit - Marvel completely changing the X-Men with a Black Woman, a Native American, and a Russian - in fact, there was a time you could've traded two of these for a Howard the Duck #1 which would come out that fall - but this was considered a radical change by Marvel at the time.

 

Proof that... just sticking with what works for you in the world of comics... isn't always the best idea.

[natevegas]

 

This book wasn't an immediate hit - Marvel completely changing the X-Men with a Black Woman, a Native American, and a Russian - in fact, there was a time you could've traded two of these for a Howard the Duck #1 which would come out that fall - but this was considered a radical change by Marvel at the time.

 

Proof that... just sticking with what works for you in the world of comics... isn't always the best idea.

And before GSX #1 you had a Asian guy, a holocaust survivor, and a guy in a wheelchair what is your point? X-men always were diverse that is why I love em.

[the authority]

For April 2015, the Top 11 (ELEVEN!!!) individual titles in the Diamond Top 300 for the month were over 100,000 copies sold.

 

The Top 20 titles averaged 103, 272 copies sold.

 

That was before Secret Wars #1 was released.

 

It's been a LONG time since I've seen numbers like that.

 

vs

 

People who aren't reading the books anyway who are unhappy with the way they hear it's been going.

 

 

 

It generally seems that the people who most want it to stay the same have long since stopped buying it anyway.

 

 

Sales are up. Up as high as they've been in almost 2 decades.

 

It's going to make them think they're doing something right.

 

Well you got me there. The Top 10 includes Convergence, Batman, and Star Wars. Convergence didn't have any 1:100 sales drivers did they ? Oh, they did ? Haha ! Get real. The 1st Marvel title that isn't a Star Wars book is, you guessed it, Spider-Gwen. A new character. Wow, who woulda thunk it ? The only book that has been changed that we're discussing with vastly improved sales is Thor. Do you think the speculation crowd had anything to do with that ? I do. Do you think #15 will have sales close to #7 ? No, because they are rebooting again. They don't seem to be able to sustain sales without gimmicks or reboots.

 

What is the highest selling book by Marvel or DC that doesn't have some sort of variant ? How many times a month do they have to produce a book for these sales. All of this leads me to believe that they are selling less people, more books.

 

Marvel and DC are doing the old sports card sales tactic of 1:10, 1:25, 1:50, 1:100, and 1:200 or is this something comic companies resorted to in the past ? Unfortunately, Image appears to be following suit. I think this is a poor long term sales solution but we'll see. Remember Uncanny Avengers #1 with the 1:200 covers and over 300,000 reported sales ? I can still buy those off the shelf locally. Do you still have any ?

 

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

As to whether or not everyone is important to Marvel ? Which customers can you afford to disregard in your business ? I work in sales and fight to get them all even though I know its impossible. I certainly wouldn't quit selling something and replace it with something else if I could sell both. I can't imagine that I would ever be put in a position that forces me to sell this OR that, can you ?

Do you really feel that Marvel is "disregarding" any of its readers. They publish a ton of books. For every book they decide to include in their line that gives, for example, Muslim teenagers a character to identify with, there are still dozens of examples more geared towards white males. As for the bolded part above, it's not like we're selling widgets here. It's a creative product and you still need creative people to do the job. The more product you add, the more the creativity gets diluted due to end of the line being created by people that aren't quite as creative as the top of the line.

[the authority]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

[Lonzilla]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

Say it with AUTHORITY! (thumbs u

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

If this is directed at me (I'm assuming it is as my post is directly before yours), note that I'm just addressing the bit that I quoted, and I'm not making any veiled allegations. I'm just pointing out that there isn't some segment of the population that is being cast aside in favor of targeting some new segment of the population.

[Prince Namor]

For April 2015, the Top 11 (ELEVEN!!!) individual titles in the Diamond Top 300 for the month were over 100,000 copies sold.

 

The Top 20 titles averaged 103, 272 copies sold.

 

That was before Secret Wars #1 was released.

 

It's been a LONG time since I've seen numbers like that.

 

vs

 

People who aren't reading the books anyway who are unhappy with the way they hear it's been going.

 

 

 

It generally seems that the people who most want it to stay the same have long since stopped buying it anyway.

 

 

Sales are up. Up as high as they've been in almost 2 decades.

 

It's going to make them think they're doing something right.

 

Well you got me there. The Top 10 includes Convergence, Batman, and Star Wars.

 

Convergence which is about changing the DC Universe, Batman which has killed off Bruce Wayne and made Commissioner Gordon the new Batman (change) and Star Wars which has added two NEW FEMALE characters to the storyline. Ch-ch-cha-changes.

 

Convergence didn't have any 1:100 sales drivers did they ? Oh, they did ? Haha ! Get real.

 

And? On average, incentive covers increase the print run about 10%. It doesn't make that big of a difference. It's not like stores who order 25 of it (like me) suddenly order 100 to get that incentive cover. And incentive covers have been there for years, it's not like this is a new phenomenon.

 

The 1st Marvel title that isn't a Star Wars book is, you guessed it, Spider-Gwen. A new character. Wow, who woulda thunk it ?

 

I woulda 'thunk' it. The book is rockin'. It went from 'No New Character' and ZERO sales to 'New FEMALE' character and over 100,000 copies a month.

 

FIVE years ago, April 2010, there were only 3 books that sold over 100,000 copies - and NONE were Marvel. Amazing Spider-man had dipped below 60,000.

Image Firsts: Walking Dead #1 outsold it. Marvel was in a funk.

 

NOW: With Spider-Gwen at 100,000, Silk at 58,000, Spider-Woman at 32,000 on top of ASM at 100,000, Marvel has, through the process of CHANGE, not only almost doubled Spider-man's print run, but added 3 new off shoots of the Spidey Universe, that are new books added to the sales.

 

The only book that has been changed that we're discussing with vastly improved sales is Thor. Do you think the speculation crowd had anything to do with that ? I do. Do you think #15 will have sales close to #7 ? No, because they are rebooting again. They don't seem to be able to sustain sales without gimmicks or reboots.

 

Wrong again. Darth Vader #3, new character, female. Star Wars #6, new character, female, Amazing Spider-man, new characters, Spider-Gwen, female and Silk, female, THEN you have Thor. The All New Captain America is selling better than the last reboot And Ms. Marvel is selling the same numbers as GGA Ms. Marvel.

 

And speculation and gimmicks had nothing to do with those books - they SOLD out at the store level - multiple prints of ALL the Star Wars books are happening - even the one's WITHOUT new characters -WHY? - MORE people are coming in for the comics than the retailers thought would.

 

And It's not about one book or two books doing better or whatever - it's about expanding the line and creating a sense of excitement with new characters.

 

Marvel's doing it.

 

It's working.

 

Marvel's over all sales are up, up, UP.

 

If I'm a share holder I could give two carps about who character or what character- the dollar signs point up on the chart.

 

And other than a handful of people who don't even read most of these books whining about it on the internet, fan reaction has been overall positive.

 

Secret Wars is a HIT.

 

What is the highest selling book by Marvel or DC that doesn't have some sort of variant ? How many times a month do they have to produce a book for these sales. All of this leads me to believe that they are selling less people, more books.

 

The key words being: more books.

 

The wrong word being: less people.

 

Ask any retailer here and they'll tell you: More people are coming into the store to buy now, than they were 5 years ago. New people. Returning people.

 

Seriously, go ask. The information is all there.

 

Marvel and DC are doing the old sports card sales tactic of 1:10, 1:25, 1:50, 1:100, and 1:200 or is this something comic companies resorted to in the past ?

 

Been around for 20+ years.

 

Unfortunately, Image appears to be following suit. I think this is a poor long term sales solution but we'll see.

 

Image doesn't really do it like that. And really the only people who get bent out of shape about variants are the completionists who have a hard time keeping up. COMPANY Variants, through Diamond's system, if bought properly, even though a retailer, are more affordable now than they were 20 years ago.

1:25's used to be $25, 1:100's $100.

Most of them are less than half that now.

 

Remember Uncanny Avengers #1 with the 1:200 covers and over 300,000 reported sales ? I can still buy those off the shelf locally. Do you still have any ?

 

I don't because I under ordered, but on a #1 like that some people will over order to have copies for people coming in late for it. I still have about 10 Star Wars #1 1st prints because I WANTED to have them 6 months after release.

 

It's always worked that way.

[the authority]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

If this is directed at me (I'm assuming it is as my post is directly before yours), note that I'm just addressing the bit that I quoted, and I'm not making any veiled allegations. I'm just pointing out that there isn't some segment of the population that is being cast aside in favor of targeting some new segment of the population.

 

I've never put a lot of thought into a character being made for a white male audience. I guess I took granted that these characters were made for all of us to enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that even with the name Captain America that anyone in the world could relate to the guy, not just Americans. I always assumed his ideals were universal. Same thing with Superman. Truth and Justice happened to be the America that I perceived as a kid. I would think truth and justice is a worldwide expectation whether it is a reality or not.

[Prince Namor]

 

This book wasn't an immediate hit - Marvel completely changing the X-Men with a Black Woman, a Native American, and a Russian - in fact, there was a time you could've traded two of these for a Howard the Duck #1 which would come out that fall - but this was considered a radical change by Marvel at the time.

 

Proof that... just sticking with what works for you in the world of comics... isn't always the best idea.

And before GSX #1 you had a Asian guy, a holocaust survivor, and a guy in a wheelchair what is your point? X-men always were diverse that is why I love em.

 

No.

 

You had four white guys and a white girl with a guy in a wheel chair.

 

There were no 'Asian guys' in the X-men in 1963 and Magneto's 'holocaust' past wasn't revealed until 25 years later.

 

That's... that's not even....close.

[natevegas]

 

This book wasn't an immediate hit - Marvel completely changing the X-Men with a Black Woman, a Native American, and a Russian - in fact, there was a time you could've traded two of these for a Howard the Duck #1 which would come out that fall - but this was considered a radical change by Marvel at the time.

 

Proof that... just sticking with what works for you in the world of comics... isn't always the best idea.

And before GSX #1 you had a Asian guy, a holocaust survivor, and a guy in a wheelchair what is your point? X-men always were diverse that is why I love em.

 

No.

 

You had four white guys and a white girl with a guy in a wheel chair.

 

There were no 'Asian guys' in the X-men in 1963 and Magneto's 'holocaust' past wasn't revealed until 25 years later.

 

That's... that's not even....close.

Eh buddy do you homework before x-men had their initial run canceled you had Banshee (Scottish),x-men 28 Sunfire (Japanese) in x-men 64, and Charles without the use of his legs in x-men 1. Its nice you think diversity started with GSX #1 but you are wrong once again.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

If this is directed at me (I'm assuming it is as my post is directly before yours), note that I'm just addressing the bit that I quoted, and I'm not making any veiled allegations. I'm just pointing out that there isn't some segment of the population that is being cast aside in favor of targeting some new segment of the population.

 

I've never put a lot of thought into a character being made for a white male audience. I guess I took granted that these characters were made for all of us to enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that even with the name Captain America that anyone in the world could relate to the guy, not just Americans. I always assumed his ideals were universal. Same thing with Superman. Truth and Justice happened to be the America that I perceived as a kid. I would think truth and justice is a worldwide expectation whether it is a reality or not.

Characters may not be made for a specific audience per se, but when you see a character that looks like you doing interesting things, that is the star of the book (not a supporting character), you're more likely to be engaged with that character and keep coming back for more. Unfortunately "white" and "male" has been the default for most of the history of comics, unless a character *needs* to be something else to fit with the story. Sure, you could come up with a list where that doesn't apply, but I imagine for each character on the list there would be five times as many characters that are white males that would have worked perfectly fine as women or other ethnicities.

[the authority]

I'm for the NEW characters being introduced and I stated that Star Wars was a mover. New characters are who I'm hoping is in the books. I'm a Star Wars reader and I'm ready for the movie.

 

Incentive covers have been around for years. I remember the Superman 204 RRP being a big deal when it was produced. Now, every book has an incentive cover. Your 25 books probably don't have much impact on the overall print run but you think maybe Midtown Comics, DCBS, and TFAW aren't ordering enough to get lots and lots of 1:100 copies ? Go to Midtown's site on Wednesday and then check out all of the ebay sellers who preorder. One guy posted 13, count 'em, 13 copies of the AH Spider-Gwen #1. That required ordering 1300 regular cover #1's. Star Wars sold almost 1,000,000 copies of #1. How many people do you sell to who don't have multiple copies ? Who is still buying those 6 months later that couldn't get their hands on one the 1st month it came out. How about Spider-man #1 ? superman Unchained with it's 1;300 variants ? How many regular covers "sold" ?

 

Btw, the month Star Wars 1 came out, the top 20 books averaged well over 100,000 copies. It really 3 months really isn't that long ago.

 

You use Spider-Gwen and Silk as part of your sales increase. New characters like this will be long term winners because they are "grass roots" type characters and especially in the case of Gwen.

 

I stated that the only book that had changed that had improved sales was Thor so of course you bring up Star Wars. They didn't change Boba Fett into a female, they ADDED females which again is what I've suggested is a positive form of creativity. Quit trying to change the debate unless you want to continue pushing my side as a "win" as you just did ? Who's wrong ? You also used Ms. Marvel. Thank you for pointing out my side once again.

 

If you'd like to continue, I have nothing but time but please stay on your side of the debate unless I'm changing your mind.

[natevegas]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

If this is directed at me (I'm assuming it is as my post is directly before yours), note that I'm just addressing the bit that I quoted, and I'm not making any veiled allegations. I'm just pointing out that there isn't some segment of the population that is being cast aside in favor of targeting some new segment of the population.

 

I've never put a lot of thought into a character being made for a white male audience. I guess I took granted that these characters were made for all of us to enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that even with the name Captain America that anyone in the world could relate to the guy, not just Americans. I always assumed his ideals were universal. Same thing with Superman. Truth and Justice happened to be the America that I perceived as a kid. I would think truth and justice is a worldwide expectation whether it is a reality or not.

Characters may not be made for a specific audience per se, but when you see a character that looks like you doing interesting things, that is the star of the book (not a supporting character), you're more likely to be engaged with that character and keep coming back for more. Unfortunately "white" and "male" has been the default for most of the history of comics, unless a character *needs* to be something else to fit with the story. Sure, you could come up with a list where that doesn't apply, but I imagine for each character on the list there would be five times as many characters that are white males that would have worked perfectly fine as women or other ethnicities.

You make a good point. I started reading comic books because of the x-men and professor X specifically I could relate to. I still read books but I'm not seeing direct representation since they killed him off and its just his brain now.

[the authority]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

If this is directed at me (I'm assuming it is as my post is directly before yours), note that I'm just addressing the bit that I quoted, and I'm not making any veiled allegations. I'm just pointing out that there isn't some segment of the population that is being cast aside in favor of targeting some new segment of the population.

 

I've never put a lot of thought into a character being made for a white male audience. I guess I took granted that these characters were made for all of us to enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that even with the name Captain America that anyone in the world could relate to the guy, not just Americans. I always assumed his ideals were universal. Same thing with Superman. Truth and Justice happened to be the America that I perceived as a kid. I would think truth and justice is a worldwide expectation whether it is a reality or not.

Characters may not be made for a specific audience per se, but when you see a character that looks like you doing interesting things, that is the star of the book (not a supporting character), you're more likely to be engaged with that character and keep coming back for more. Unfortunately "white" and "male" has been the default for most of the history of comics, unless a character *needs* to be something else to fit with the story. Sure, you could come up with a list where that doesn't apply, but I imagine for each character on the list there would be five times as many characters that are white males that would have worked perfectly fine as women or other ethnicities.

 

I don't really have to put too much thought into this one. Nearly all of my favorite NBA players are black. My all time favorite is Hakeem Olajuwon. He happens to be an African and a Muslim and he also happens to be the center of my favorite team when they won back to back championships.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

You must have missed the part where I listed my faves. Why do you guys insist on making a familiar thing a race thing. You really don't know me but assume a LOT. I have a Mexican brother in law who happens to be one of my favorite family members. He is married to my wife's sister. My brother's wife's parents were both born in Mexico. So, my niece and nephews, who I happen to love dearly, have very strong latino ties and looks. You've obviously never been to my house on Sunday. Geez.

 

I choose to work where I do and you won't believe this, a full quarter of our sales force is gay including my GM. Then you have a full third of the sales guys being black. One of them is gay. Some are women. It probably blows your mind that a white guy like me chooses to work at a place like that. What the heck was I thinking ? Oh, get this, our #1 wholesale buyer is....Muslim ? Not just a Muslim but a Palestinian. Yep, he also happens to be the first guy who came to my home when my business had cash flow problems in 2001. What ? You probably think I'm forced to be there but no. Like our old pal Wolverine, I'm absolutely the best there is at what I do...at least around the tristate. Not only that, I work with my son. Why would I expose him to this ? I'm a son to a mother, a husband to a wife, and a father to 2 beautiful daughters. Think I have something against women ?

 

Keep changing the subject though and once again make a guy a racist white male instead of a long time reader or face the fact that you just used a new character with new powers to make a point. That is what I said they should be doing in the first place. You guys seem to arguing that Kamala Khan would be better if she were named Carol Danvers and have exactly her powers. Right ?

If this is directed at me (I'm assuming it is as my post is directly before yours), note that I'm just addressing the bit that I quoted, and I'm not making any veiled allegations. I'm just pointing out that there isn't some segment of the population that is being cast aside in favor of targeting some new segment of the population.

 

I've never put a lot of thought into a character being made for a white male audience. I guess I took granted that these characters were made for all of us to enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that even with the name Captain America that anyone in the world could relate to the guy, not just Americans. I always assumed his ideals were universal. Same thing with Superman. Truth and Justice happened to be the America that I perceived as a kid. I would think truth and justice is a worldwide expectation whether it is a reality or not.

Characters may not be made for a specific audience per se, but when you see a character that looks like you doing interesting things, that is the star of the book (not a supporting character), you're more likely to be engaged with that character and keep coming back for more. Unfortunately "white" and "male" has been the default for most of the history of comics, unless a character *needs* to be something else to fit with the story. Sure, you could come up with a list where that doesn't apply, but I imagine for each character on the list there would be five times as many characters that are white males that would have worked perfectly fine as women or other ethnicities.

 

I don't really have to put too much thought into this one. Nearly all of my favorite NBA players are black. My all time favorite is Hakeem Olajuwon. He happens to be an African and a Muslim and he also happens to be the center of my favorite team when they won back to back championships.

Sports = fictional entertainment how, exactly?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

I'm for the NEW characters being introduced and I stated that Star Wars was a mover. New characters are who I'm hoping is in the books. I'm a Star Wars reader and I'm ready for the movie.

 

Incentive covers have been around for years. I remember the Superman 204 RRP being a big deal when it was produced. Now, every book has an incentive cover. Your 25 books probably don't have much impact on the overall print run but you think maybe Midtown Comics, DCBS, and TFAW aren't ordering enough to get lots and lots of 1:100 copies ? Go to Midtown's site on Wednesday and then check out all of the ebay sellers who preorder. One guy posted 13, count 'em, 13 copies of the AH Spider-Gwen #1. That required ordering 1300 regular cover #1's. Star Wars sold almost 1,000,000 copies of #1. How many people do you sell to who don't have multiple copies ? Who is still buying those 6 months later that couldn't get their hands on one the 1st month it came out. How about Spider-man #1 ? superman Unchained with it's 1;300 variants ? How many regular covers "sold" ?

 

Btw, the month Star Wars 1 came out, the top 20 books averaged well over 100,000 copies. It really 3 months really isn't that long ago.

 

You use Spider-Gwen and Silk as part of your sales increase. New characters like this will be long term winners because they are "grass roots" type characters and especially in the case of Gwen.

 

I stated that the only book that had changed that had improved sales was Thor so of course you bring up Star Wars. They didn't change Boba Fett into a female, they ADDED females which again is what I've suggested is a positive form of creativity. Quit trying to change the debate unless you want to continue pushing my side as a "win" as you just did ? Who's wrong ? You also used Ms. Marvel. Thank you for pointing out my side once again.

 

If you'd like to continue, I have nothing but time but please stay on your side of the debate unless I'm changing your mind.

They didn't change Thor into a female, either. They just had a different character wield the hammer. And although I haven't been following the book, it seems from what I know about it that it's meant to be a storyline with an intended conclusion (after which we'll probably see the original Thor back with the hammer again).

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

 

 

This book wasn't an immediate hit - Marvel completely changing the X-Men with a Black Woman, a Native American, and a Russian - in fact, there was a time you could've traded two of these for a Howard the Duck #1 which would come out that fall - but this was considered a radical change by Marvel at the time.

 

Proof that... just sticking with what works for you in the world of comics... isn't always the best idea.

And before GSX #1 you had a Asian guy, a holocaust survivor, and a guy in a wheelchair what is your point? X-men always were diverse that is why I love em.

 

No.

 

You had four white guys and a white girl with a guy in a wheel chair.

 

There were no 'Asian guys' in the X-men in 1963 and Magneto's 'holocaust' past wasn't revealed until 25 years later.

 

That's... that's not even....close.

Eh buddy do you homework before x-men had their initial run canceled you had Banshee (Scottish),x-men 28 Sunfire (Japanese) in x-men 64, and Charles without the use of his legs in x-men 1. Its nice you think diversity started with GSX #1 but you are wrong once again.

Scots are white (mostly; certainly Banshee is) last I checked. And Sunfire didn't become an X-Man until GS. He was introduced as an adversary.

[Prince Namor]

 

This book wasn't an immediate hit - Marvel completely changing the X-Men with a Black Woman, a Native American, and a Russian - in fact, there was a time you could've traded two of these for a Howard the Duck #1 which would come out that fall - but this was considered a radical change by Marvel at the time.

 

Proof that... just sticking with what works for you in the world of comics... isn't always the best idea.

And before GSX #1 you had a Asian guy, a holocaust survivor, and a guy in a wheelchair what is your point? X-men always were diverse that is why I love em.

 

No.

 

You had four white guys and a white girl with a guy in a wheel chair.

 

There were no 'Asian guys' in the X-men in 1963 and Magneto's 'holocaust' past wasn't revealed until 25 years later.

 

That's... that's not even....close.

Eh buddy do you homework before x-men had their initial run canceled you had Banshee (Scottish),x-men 28 Sunfire (Japanese) in x-men 64

 

This is almost too easy. Neither of them became actual X-men until GSX1. Fact.

 

and Charles without the use of his legs in x-men 1.

 

How many times are you going to include him?

 

Its nice you think diversity started with GSX #1 but you are wrong once again.

 

Never said that. Get your facts straight.

 

The X-Men TEAM that fought bad guys, were for the majority of their first run almost exclusively 4 white guys and a white girl.

 

But the 'boss' was a white guy in a wheel chair.

 

If you knew your history of comics like I do, you can actually read about Roy Thomas talking how he tried to bring diversity to the team, but Stan didn't like his ideas. So none of those characters got to be actual regular X-Men until... GSX1. It's a fact.

 

I've done my homework.

 

Yours is an 'F'.