The State of the Hobby (Stirring the Pot)?

[mister_not_so_nice]

 

Historical importance IS important, but it doesn't outweigh the combination of my nostalgia and price points. The main reason I collect modern art is because I can get primo pages for what I believe to be reasonable prices. I would rather have a primo modern example than a D level Silver Age page based solely on historical importance any day of the week.

 

Just going by your CAF it looks like you're 5 years in and still focusing on your niche. 10 years from now, when you've got all the WD art you want, and its (hopefully) matured in value to allow you to play in more expensive waters, you may see the world through different eyes.

 

Once upon a time I had the exact same mentality. Now making the jump to SA art feels like the next step. Sadly as my income increases so does my tastes!

 

The problem with the bolded parts of your statement is you have to sell in order to realize those gains. 18+ years into collecting I still am having a problem when I consider "thinning the herd"

[vodou]

Despite not everyone who loves comics earning $75k/yr or more,there's enough out there who earn $250k/yr+...

Is this really true or even likely? I've yet to see solid demographics for comic collectors, forget about OA sub-collectors.

 

There are some deep wallets in comics and comic art. You would be very surprised who some of the top tier $$bag collectors are.

 

Exactly... the stats in terms of auction results and dealer sales don't like.

 

You go to any comic convention and you can see top current work by Adam Hughes, J. Scott Campbell and other artists sell for $4k+ without buyers flinching on peeling out the cash, all while others right behind 'em wished they were there first for the buying opportunity.

 

A lot of comic book, and more specifically art collectors have disposable income with flexibility in what they spend or invest in, in speaking to many of my peers who may not have the huge overhead nor obligations of family (wives and kids) or have well compensated jobs that affords them the luxury of buying artwork.

I remain interested in demographics not speculation and anecdotes. Is it a surprise that conventions are where large cash transactions are made? It's a given to me (artificial concentration of inventory and spending money in a compressed time-frame), so not impressive.

 

What's the distribution of large earners (which is not necessarily the same as large spenders!)? I'd argue "earning" is at best only half the story (as many are playing with house money in CGC and art 'upgrade' selling to fund spending, it's not 'new' money). Back to spenders, is it ten guys spending a million/yr or 100 guys spending $100k/yr. Same money but different distribution. That's a significant difference and valuable information to have.

 

Perhaps a starter poll would be what % of AGI households grossing >$50k (national avg) are spending on comic oa annually? And the same over five years, ten years (or null if not collecting that long, also valuable information!) It would be great to get a sample size of at least 2500 honest responses, but I don't think that's likely.

 

And are we really talking about $4k like that's anything to talk about?? It's a negligible number in this hobby in 2015, unless it's what's being dropped couple of weeks by the same collector.

[vodou]

The problem with the bolded parts of your statement is you have to sell in order to realize those gains. 18+ years into collecting I still am having a problem when I consider "thinning the herd"

Not completely. There comes a confidence (artificial imo) to spend new money more aggressively when your 'portfolio' is doing really well (on paper), whether or not you actually sell anything.

 

Herd mentality and chasing past return up the chart are both strong 'near term' psychological motivators. As a dommitted contrarian, I fight these impulses every day.

[Phill the Governor]

Back to spenders, is it ten guys spending a million/yr or 100 guys spending $100k/yr. Same money but different distribution. That's a significant difference and valuable information to have.

 

The reality is a combination of the two.

 

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of 50 people that spend over 100k a year on comics, and at least another 8 that spend that on art. And I know of at least 5 people that annually spend 1mil + on comics.

 

And that's just with my limited knowledge. Granted, I know more about these specifics than the average person in this hobby, but there are certainly more people that fall into (at least) the 100K + bracket that I don't know about.

[DeadpoolJr.]

Back to spenders, is it ten guys spending a million/yr or 100 guys spending $100k/yr. Same money but different distribution. That's a significant difference and valuable information to have.

 

The reality is a combination of the two.

 

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of 50 people that spend over 100k a year on comics, and at least another 8 that spend that on art. And I know of at least 5 people that annually spend 1mil + on comics.

 

And that's just with my limited knowledge. Granted, I know more about these specifics than the average person in this hobby, but there are certainly more people that fall into (at least) the 100K + bracket that I don't know about.

Question though, are all of those people who spend it specifically doing it to keep for their private collections, or is there a percent that are also dealers with some of that money being spend to restock their inventory?

[Mighty Hal]

And are we really talking about $4k like that's anything to talk about?? It's a negligible number in this hobby in 2015, unless it's what's being dropped couple of weeks by the same collector.

 

In my house, spending $4K on a piece of OA absolutely would warrant a discussion. I don't have a six figure income -- or a seven figure income, but congrats on those who do -- and that's one reason why SA artwork has so little interest for me. Even bad SA artwork commands a four digit price if you're talking an old favorite like The X-Men.

 

Those who dismiss Modern Art as a series of splashes haven't taken a look in the last few years. There's some terrific work and great stories out there. I can buy a cover or splash I love without worrying about the mortgage. Of course, I'm not shopping for a J. Scott Campbell cover, either.

[suspense39]

I would guess it's a little hard to Guage the state of the hobby from this forum alone. My experience here is that it's mostly a hero based nostalgia forum.....which is probably most collectors. But, there are historic and underground collectors as well.

 

[Phill the Governor]

Back to spenders, is it ten guys spending a million/yr or 100 guys spending $100k/yr. Same money but different distribution. That's a significant difference and valuable information to have.

 

The reality is a combination of the two.

 

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of 50 people that spend over 100k a year on comics, and at least another 8 that spend that on art. And I know of at least 5 people that annually spend 1mil + on comics.

 

And that's just with my limited knowledge. Granted, I know more about these specifics than the average person in this hobby, but there are certainly more people that fall into (at least) the 100K + bracket that I don't know about.

Question though, are all of those people who spend it specifically doing it to keep for their private collections, or is there a percent that are also dealers with some of that money being spend to restock their inventory?

 

The numbers are sided more with collectors. Some never have intent to sell, others do for upgrades, some flip, it's a mix.

[mrpunch0]

Personally, 15 years later, Ive gotten almost everything I want from the modern market and my eyes are slowly drifting towards the silver age market. I want a premium Kirby piece so bad!

 

Which also brings me to my next point... If Im any example, some of the younger collectors will also eventually clamour for the historical importance of silver age pieces as well as Jack Kirbys line work.

Good data point is opposition of my concern. Hopefully there are more of you. Certainly many 'veteran' collectors did the same, got our nostalgia taken care of and then started looking backward and to the sides (in my case - literally everywhere, starting with museums and area fine art galleries, then those places when I traveled, also Juxtapoz artists, then folk/indigenous, illustration and non-US all along, et al).

 

I'm in the same boat. (I actually bought my first page of OA from Khazano. $175 seemed like sooooo much back then. How little I knew.) I focused mainly on new OA and slowly dabbled into the early 90s and late 80s so I could get some key nostalgia pieces from my younger days. I never really wanted anything by Kirby or Ditko because I didn't grow up reading that stuff.

 

Now - I'd kill for a nice Kirby Cap or Thor page. But prices are high enough to keep me from pulling out the wallet. I could always finance one by selling off parts of my collection -- but I've let go of a handful of pieces and always regretted it.

 

I'm sure I'll have a Kirby on my wall eventually, but for now my priorities are elsewhere.

[vodou]

Good stuff, I asked the questions because I don't know the answers. Not sure we have them, but certainly more information, and of a higher quality.

[Khazano]

 

I'm in the same boat. (I actually bought my first page of OA from Khazano. $175 seemed like sooooo much back then. How little I knew.) I focused mainly on new OA and slowly dabbled into the early 90s and late 80s so I could get some key nostalgia pieces from my younger days. I never really wanted anything by Kirby or Ditko because I didn't grow up reading that stuff.

 

Now - I'd kill for a nice Kirby Cap or Thor page. But prices are high enough to keep me from pulling out the wallet. I could always finance one by selling off parts of my collection -- but I've let go of a handful of pieces and always regretted it.

 

I'm sure I'll have a Kirby on my wall eventually, but for now my priorities are elsewhere.

 

Hey! I remember that. Wasn't it an Ultimate Spidey page from the second Goblin arc?

 

Man what I wouldnt give to buy back some of those pages.

[Khazano]

 

The problem with the bolded parts of your statement is you have to sell in order to realize those gains. 18+ years into collecting I still am having a problem when I consider "thinning the herd"

 

Very true. But, if I may be a little here... With 54+ Preacher pages at todays market. If you really wanted a nice example (not AAA though), you could, and you'd still have plenty to spare.

[Phill the Governor]

 

Historical importance IS important, but it doesn't outweigh the combination of my nostalgia and price points. The main reason I collect modern art is because I can get primo pages for what I believe to be reasonable prices. I would rather have a primo modern example than a D level Silver Age page based solely on historical importance any day of the week.

 

Just going by your CAF it looks like you're 5 years in and still focusing on your niche. 10 years from now, when you've got all the WD art you want, and its (hopefully) matured in value to allow you to play in more expensive waters, you may see the world through different eyes.

 

Once upon a time I had the exact same mentality. Now making the jump to SA art feels like the next step. Sadly as my income increases so does my tastes!

 

I don't necessarily think of jumping to Silver Age as the next step. Simply making more money allows to spend more on "higher quality" art. And even if the Walking Dead art I own matures, my intention is to sell as little of it as possible. So getting to the "higher quality" stuff that I want (like a Killing Joke page or a Ditko Spiderman page) without selling what I already have is only attainable if I make more money. That's the difficult part of collecting: you can't rationalize nostalgia just like you can't rationalize a collector's decision for keeping a piece for a duration or selling a piece tomorrow. Most collectors want to keep everything, but I have art listed on ebay because I need the money.

[Khazano]

I don't necessarily think of jumping to Silver Age as the next step. Simply making more money allows to spend more on "higher quality" art. And even if the Walking Dead art I own matures, my intention is to sell as little of it as possible. So getting to the "higher quality" stuff that I want (like a Killing Joke page or a Ditko Spiderman page) without selling what I already have is only attainable if I make more money. That's the difficult part of collecting: you can't rationalize nostalgia in the same you can't rationalize a collector's decision for keeping a piece for a duration or selling a piece tomorrow. Most collectors want to keep everything, but I have art listed on ebay because I need the money.

 

 

Fair enough. For my niche collection, which is Ultimate Spider-Man, Ive known for a while that when (if) the market matures to the four figure level, there will come a time I thin the heard so to speak, with me keeping only the absolute best AAA pieces from it in my collection.

[mrpunch0]

Hey! I remember that. Wasn't it an Ultimate Spidey page from the second Goblin arc?

 

Man what I wouldnt give to buy back some of those pages.

 

That's the one. I remember being really nervous about buying outside the protection of eBay and being a bit of a when it didn't show up at my door right away. (Which was more than a little unrealistic.)

 

Little did I know that would be the start of a serious collection/problem/addiction. ;-)

[suspense39]

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/Home/4/1/73/1018?ArticleID=137910

 

Here is a related article from diamond galleries, definitely hero focused, but some good info in here regarding your question.

[AKA Rick]

One of the best buying tactics for collectors of today is much like any other speculative investing strategies of "buy low, sell high" is to maybe buy some undervalued art (and I do think there's a few artists, Mark Bagley included) whose work may go up in value at a greater pace than some of the already established priced pieces.

 

So, ideally a person picks up 100 x $100 pieces for $10,000 that matures into $300 pieces and is able to sell or trade for that $30,000 value and secure higher priced material which hopefully didn't increase as aggressively.

 

I'd have a hard time writing a check our handing over $30,000 in cash for a piece of comic art, but most certainly wouldn't be as reluctant to do a trade, or use proceeds from a sale to finance that bigger piece. Psychologically, if I bought something for $2,000 and sold/traded it for $5,000 and picked up another piece priced at $5,000, it would seem to me that that new $5,000 piece only cost me $2,000... it makes me sleep better at night I guess

 

 

 

[delekkerste]

The future of this hobby has never looked better (looking in the rearview mirror)! I'm sure all these young bucks posting here (all five of them) and the silent multitude of young buyers who just haven't revealed themselves yet (bwahahahaha) will grow up to be big spenders (sorry you were born too late and missed out on all the good times, kids), putting us old-timers on Easy Street (presently filling out an application for a second job at Starbucks, which seems like more of a sure thing) when they shift their focus from buying what they like and can afford to adopt the exact same tastes as we have in the future (lololol).

[Ronan Killack]

The future of this hobby has never looked better (looking in the rearview mirror)! I'm sure all these young bucks posting here (all five of them) and the silent multitude of young buyers who just haven't revealed themselves yet (bwahahahaha) will grow up to be big spenders (sorry you were born too late and missed out on all the good times, kids), putting us old-timers on Easy Street (presently filling out an application for a second job at Starbucks, which seems like more of a sure thing) when they shift their focus from buying what they like and can afford to adopting the exact same tastes as we have in the future (lololol).

 

I wish to be associated with Gene's comments.

 

Our hobby HAS to have been significantly impacted in recent years by the massive amounts of free money pumped into our economy by the Fed. Growth in financial asset prices - speculative (i.e., comic OA) or otherwise - have far outpaced real GDP growth. At some point, the music will end. I have no idea what will happen at that point - but it certainly seems like there is way more pressure to downward pricing performance than upwards.

 

As always, collect what you love and be comfortable with the fact that it could be worth nothing to the next generation.

 

[vodou]

Our hobby HAS to have been significantly impacted in recent years by the massive amounts of free money pumped into our economy by the Fed.

Point of correction: most of the liquidity never made it into the economy. It sat on bank balance sheets at the Fed.

 

Velocity of money back to mid-70s stagflation era tells the story.