Fantastic Four 76 Sold for $170,000 ?

[vodou]

All admittedly very speculative about the future. Who knows whether most people will even collect CGC comic books in 20 years or whether the monetary system we use today will even be the same. Let alone, the new players in the space.

My point remains that there's a lot of pressure at local, state and federal levels to increase revenue (taxes) from an ever-shrinking pie and pool of workers (post-Boomer demographics). One way or another the problem will be solved. The EU (Brussels) is imposing their solution on Greece. I doubt ours will be with belt-tightening and austerity (same taxes, less benefits). That just isn't sexy flypaper for votes. And I don't think we need to wait twenty years to find out!

[vodou]

You need a license to become an art appraiser ? , what a racket the government is.

You probably need a license to be bonded. And you probably need to be bonded against potential litigation. But this is guessing on my part. If you care to, ask an appraiser to get the best answer. Also I'd imagine most appraisers would be for barriers to entry, just good business (less competition).

[Peter G]

All admittedly very speculative about the future. Who knows whether most people will even collect CGC comic books in 20 years or whether the monetary system we use today will even be the same. Let alone, the new players in the space.

My point remains that there's a lot of pressure at local, state and federal levels to increase revenue (taxes) from an ever-shrinking pie and pool of workers (post-Boomer demographics). One way or another the problem will be solved. The EU (Brussels) is imposing their solution on Greece. I doubt ours will be with belt-tightening and austerity (same taxes, less benefits). That just isn't sexy flypaper for votes. And I don't think we need to wait twenty years to find out!

 

You will get no disagreement from me on the likely increased trend of governments looking for revenue any which way they can find it. Less certain is whether they will be successful in their efforts. Especially when it comes to movable chattels like comic books. Like I said, I just don't see small individuals with a collection of valuable CGC Spiderman comic books paying a tax when they have no plan to sell their comic books and love the asset no matter how expensive it is. Lots of people here like the comic books and the OA and just don;t want to sell at any price.Dealers are more likely to get caught in the cross hairs. Like I said, Atlas will not just shrug. He will die.

[Peter G]

You need a license to become an art appraiser ? , what a racket the government is.

You probably need a license to be bonded. And you probably need to be bonded against potential litigation. But this is guessing on my part. If you care to, ask an appraiser to get the best answer. Also I'd imagine most appraisers would be for barriers to entry, just good business (less competition).

 

I will have to ask the Mannarinos or Spencer when I see them about this. I am curious now.

[bluechip]

If things get that bad that our government starts looking under the citizens couch cushions...

You don't think it will?

 

I thought there were "no politics" on this board.

 

People wondering about what might happen in the future is a bit different from this graph which fairly drips of far right political think tankery, with its heavy implication that any inflation adjustment on the SS tax formula should be off the table while reneging on paying people back the money they paid into social security over their entire lives should be put on the table in order to "address the crisis".

[vodou]

Dealers are more likely to get caught in the cross hairs. Like I said, Atlas will not just shrug. He will die.

Enforcement is what it is. Doesn't matter what the asset class is. I'm sure small fish will either be exempted by threshold or not be worth the trouble to capture. But it's not too far out to expect there to be more requirements for dealers to keep and electronic records to be automatically sent to authorities or at least be available for subpoena. Unfortunately it's very well known how opaque the art world is. Expecting that to persist may be a fantasy, that's all.

 

Atlas refers to producers in Rand, not speculative investors. You can choose to change the meaning, but my disagreement has been based on adherence to the original intent. A guy with a stack of early 9.8 ASMs is not a producer of anything. Neither the dealer that sold them to him. Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Marvel, Eastern Color, et al...they are the Atlases of that equation.

[Peter G]

Dealers are more likely to get caught in the cross hairs. Like I said, Atlas will not just shrug. He will die.

Enforcement is what it is. Doesn't matter what the asset class is. I'm sure small fish will either be exempted by threshold or not be worth the trouble to capture. But it's not too far out to expect there to be more requirements for dealers to keep and electronic records to be automatically sent to authorities or at least be available for subpoena. Unfortunately it's very well known how opaque the art world is. Expecting that to persist may be a fantasy, that's all.

 

Atlas refers to producers in Rand, not speculative investors. You can choose to change the meaning, but my disagreement has been based on adherence to the original intent. A guy with a stack of early 9.8 ASMs is not a producer of anything. Neither the dealer that sold them to him. Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Marvel, Eastern Color, et al...they are the Atlases of that equation.

 

There are many small fish collectors with very valuable collections of comic books. I just don't see how you mandate that they report assets especially when they have no intention of selling and the value of the collection is irrelevant. They like the comics for as a collectible, not the monetary value.

 

As regards definition of "productivity", I take your point and am certainly not going to argue with your interpretation which is pretty much accurate. However, I will make mention of the analogy being accurate in so far as such a tax would chill entrepreneurship and capital accumulation. That is the reasoning that I was referring to in which Atlas would die. You may call people that collect "mere speculators" but I think of them as little entrepreneurs. But I am a romantic

[vodou]

 

I thought there were "no politics" on this board.

 

People wondering about what might happen in the future is a bit different from this graph which fairly drips of far right political think tankery, with its heavy implication that any inflation adjustment on the SS tax formula should be off the table while reneging on paying people back the money they paid into social security over their entire lives should be put on the table in order to "address the crisis".

Fair critique, though misguided. My intent was to share the graph, the text on the left is political in nature and I apologize for that. It's not my graphic, so the one came with the other. Note the source for the data is GAO, which people can make of what they like but that's generally "ok" to share without political feathers getting too ruffled.

 

The math past, present and near future is...math? The negative draw (more goes out than comes in) that begins in 2017 was the point of my post and sharing the graphic. It's like...just right there, not twenty years out. The projections out to 2040 are not nearly so certain. Reality could even be worse, just as a look at a similar graphic from 24 years ago would show "projected 2016" looking.

 

And I hope we do all understand (again math, not political) that while the SS system is advertised as you put money in all your working life, then get it back out when you retire but actually functions as you the workers of today put it in to directly fund the retirees of today, less administrative expense. That's why when there are more retirees than workers, or lower gross collections than payouts, you run a negative balance. It's not just total number of jobs, but quality of jobs (higher wages = higher SS withholding) that counts for that.

[vodou]

There are many small fish collectors with very valuable collections of comic books. I just don't see how you mandate that they report assets especially when they have no intention of selling and the value of the collection is irrelevant. They like the comics for as a collectible, not the monetary value.

You know, I totally agree that appears untenable on the face of it, for so many reasons (especially the logistics of managing it all). But watching the last fifteen years since dot-com burst, how the world of everything not just finance has changed, I've leaned to never say never again.

 

As regards definition of "productivity", I take your point and am certainly not going to argue with your interpretation which is pretty much accurate. However, I will make mention of the analogy being accurate in so far as such a tax would chill entrepreneurship and capital accumulation. That is the reasoning that I was referring to in which Atlas would die. You may call people that collect "mere speculators" but I think of them as little entrepreneurs. But I am a romantic

Yes the chilling effect of regulation and taxation is real and present. Starting anything bigger than a sole-proprietorship out of the home is a real PITA

Even ZIRP has done nothing to solve that, it's just created more speculators (as moral hazard -in the form of a rate- seemed to disappear). I can't agree that speculators are little entrepreneurs. Or well, maybe they are but they aren't producers. They don't create or add value (increase the diameter of the pie), they just re-cut the slices.

[Peter G]

There are many small fish collectors with very valuable collections of comic books. I just don't see how you mandate that they report assets especially when they have no intention of selling and the value of the collection is irrelevant. They like the comics for as a collectible, not the monetary value.

You know, I totally agree that appears untenable on the face of it, for so many reasons (especially the logistics of managing it all). But watching the last fifteen years since dot-com burst, how the world of everything not just finance has changed, I've leaned to never say never again.

 

As regards definition of "productivity", I take your point and am certainly not going to argue with your interpretation which is pretty much accurate. However, I will make mention of the analogy being accurate in so far as such a tax would chill entrepreneurship and capital accumulation. That is the reasoning that I was referring to in which Atlas would die. You may call people that collect "mere speculators" but I think of them as little entrepreneurs. But I am a romantic

Yes the chilling effect of regulation and taxation is real and present. Starting anything bigger than a sole-proprietorship out of the home is a real PITA

Even ZIRP has done nothing to solve that, it's just created more speculators (as moral hazard -in the form of a rate- seemed to disappear). I can't agree that speculators are little entrepreneurs. Or well, maybe they are but they aren't producers. They don't create or add value (increase the diameter of the pie), they just re-cut the slices.

 

Really think you may be over stating your case now. It is not only about the producers going on strike. It is about capital itself that will go on strike. Capital will move to where it is being treated more fairly. That is Rands point as I see it. It is unfair to just label comic book collectors as speculators. Not in my interpretation of Rand or my thoughts on this subject.

 

 

 

[vodou]

Really think you may be over stating your case now. It is not only about the producers going on strike. It is about capital itself that will go on strike. Capital will move to where it is being treated more fairly. That is Rands point as I see it. It is unfair to just label comic book collectors as speculators. Not in my interpretation of Rand or my thoughts on this subject.

Absolutely, all capital will go on strike, both in the form of Atlas and speculation. I'm just telling you "Atlas" isn't speculative capital. So we disagree, no big deal. It's semantics (I think), as we agree on the end result. All capital will flee productive and speculative investment and flood (retreat) to static assets that will be out of the control of government (not government paper where the covenants can be broken) and potentially favoring opaque ownership (to avoid regulation and property taxes). Even moreso than today. But then with little to no economic or transactional activity to tax...it's hard for you see a world where visible non-transactional property taxes increase dramatically and then extend to less visible property? If the beast is being starved, is it not cornered, will it not fight back?

 

Infamously during the height of the Weimar hyperinflation one could buy a city building for one gold coin but few would because the property taxes and regulation (of landlords) were overwhelming burdens. No such burdens on the gold coin. Of course that was an era pre-dating electronic record-keeping and the NSA...

[Peter G]

Really think you may be over stating your case now. It is not only about the producers going on strike. It is about capital itself that will go on strike. Capital will move to where it is being treated more fairly. That is Rands point as I see it. It is unfair to just label comic book collectors as speculators. Not in my interpretation of Rand or my thoughts on this subject.

Absolutely, all capital will go on strike, both in the form of Atlas and speculation. I'm just telling you "Atlas" isn't speculative capital. So we disagree, no big deal. It's semantics (I think), as we agree on the end result. All capital will flee productive and speculative investment and flood (retreat) to static assets that will be out of the control of government (not government paper where the covenants can be broken) and potentially favoring opaque ownership (to avoid regulation and property taxes). Even moreso than today. But then with little to no economic or transactional activity to tax...it's hard for you see a world where visible non-transactional property taxes increase dramatically and then extend to less visible property? If the beast is being starved, is it not cornered, will it not fight back?

 

Infamously during the height of the Weimar hyperinflation one could buy a city building for one gold coin but few would because the property taxes and regulation (of landlords) were overwhelming burdens. No such burdens on the gold coin. Of course that was an era pre-dating electronic record-keeping and the NSA...

 

Sounds like we are mostly in agreement

 

Now if we can just agree that comic book collectors are little entrepreneurs and little capital accumulators we can call it a night

 

Just kidding

 

Thanks for the fun discussion

[vodou]

Oh sure, collectors are "savers". No doubt. The big exception to the "Americans are largely broke" meme.

[Peter G]

Collectors have defied the Keynesian consumption model maybe more so out of the compulsiveness that comes from collecting but the net effect is the same, accumulated savings into a pool of future capital.

 

 

[Unca Ben]

I could swear that I saw this cover (FF 76) in an auction catalogue a few years ago.

Two or 3 years ago? Maybe about 5 years ago? A ComicLink catalogue, I think.

 

I may be wrong, my memory is getting to be terrible.

 

...Sorry for changing the subject.