SD Comic-Con Panel Discussion On Community Issues - Input Solicited

[Red Hook]

I consider myself an average collector...but then again, I don't know what an average collector can add to the conversation other than their own biases...

 

Get a bunch of collectors together and maybe you can get to the heart of some matters...

 

Jim

 

That would be even better.

[sborock]

"Steve Borock has already graciously accepted my invitation to participate."

 

That is true, but as I told Mark, as long as things are set up way ahead of time like:

 

Who is on the panel (people who are good for the hobby and can look at both sides of an argument and discuss it rationally)

 

Who is moderating

 

The moderator is impartial (or at least leave their opinions out)

 

It is not a pressing panel or a witch hunt to see who presses and who does not.

 

......and other things.

 

I do not want the hobby to go back to being the way it was 6-7 years ago. People running around yelling "the sky is falling", dealer's being called evil by the self proclaimed collector's who also buy and sell books when they themselves can't spot restoration, conspiracy theory's about a "shadow Cabnet" running things, and more garbage that took the fun out of the hobby. I love talking comics, but when it comes to the politics, we chase away many more people then we keep in when it comes to politics over the collecting/reading/history aspect.

[Red Hook]

It's not about politics Steve. It's about the money.

[sborock]

It's not about politics Steve. It's about the money.

 

[awe4one]

So you've given yourself a way out by dictating terms on panel members?

 

Jim

[FFB]

What about "divvy up a collection that we had recently purchased" makes me think this is collecting?

 

As somebody posted about someone else on the board

 

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.

 

Being a dealer is nothing to be ashamed of. However, as someone else pointed out to me in a post. You can't have it both ways.

 

Says who, besides your Bobness? Some dealers are major collectors also. They are not mutually exclusive.

[Red Hook]

It's not about politics Steve. It's about the money.

 

 

It's about the money.

[chrisco37]

Sounds like a great idea, Mark!

 

I wish I could make it out for the Con. Can't wait to read the reports about the panel.

[OldGuy]

......and other things.

 

Here we go with the private dressing room and special cheese platters.......

[Ze-man]

Yikes.. I sat down for lunch today, and logged on to see over 1700 unread posts since I returned home, I have no idea where to start.

But this caught my eye since it was newly created.. so I will add my 1 cent.

 

First off I would lean towards what BK was saying.

We all probably started out as just collectors, and at some point along the way many of you decided to make it more then a hobby... and turned a business nose to the task of how you collected, and what you were buying, and selling.

When you buy things that you do not personally like, or collect, for the sole intent of flipping.. to me THAT is what makes a person more dealer then collector. Not how, or where you sell them.

As BK said.. just because one might sell books on Clink, or Ebay.. does not a dealer make.

I for one have sold 100's of comics from my collection over the past few years, (mainly to buy MORE comics.) with the sole intent of upgrading, and filling holes in my collection. My tastes change, and so I sell off what was once important to me.. to buy the new thing that floats my boat.

And in that process........ of course it is fun to see if you can sell the books for more then you paid for them.

Human nature I suppose.

I am just a collector who also sells his books.

So YES.. I guess I am a mini me dealer.

Very mini

 

In respect to how this relates to the panel Mark is putting together... I would say a collector would be welcome on the panel.. if it was an educated collector. Someone who knows all the topics, the system, the people. But that type of person is obviously chin deep in the hobby, and is not really all that average

 

To be sure you do NOT want to simply have a yes man to kowtow to everything said.

And definitely not someone with an obvious agenda, or personal beef's with CGC, Jason, etc..etc..

 

To have ALL sides represented would seem the best way to reach a true consensus of each question asked.

So good luck finding the right person(s) to represent the average collectors point of view.

 

Well crahp, time is up .. lunch is over.

 

Congrats to the 3 stooges left in the Grading contest

 

Cee ya's

 

 

Ze-

[Norrin_Radd]

Welcome back, Ze.

[Foolkiller]

y'know one thing I'll add is that people who post on the boards aren't "average" collectors. The average collector isn't as grade obsessed, concerned about pressing and the like or even obsessed with what books sell for on the GPA analysis.

 

My mouth used to drop when I would hear people paying guide for fine and below books from stores, but for some people the books constantly move cause people are willing to pay those prices.

 

For those forumites who've met my friend Mary Ann, that's more representative of the "average collector". She owns complete FF and Avengers runs, but looked at the condition and was like, it doesn't look ratty and I can afford the book. So she bought FF #1, not with slab in mind or with it in mind that she might try to resell the book. She bought it, that's it, it's hers and part of her collection. The bottom line is that this segment of the collecting world is a very specialized version, and when people like us start talking to the "average" collector, they think it's so weird that we are sucking all the fun out of collecting.

 

Now you can skip having the average collector on a panel like this because they won't give a rat's a** about pressing.

[jbud73]

What about "divvy up a collection that we had recently purchased" makes me think this is collecting?

 

As somebody posted about someone else on the board

 

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.

 

Being a dealer is nothing to be ashamed of. However, as someone else pointed out to me in a post. You can't have it both ways.

 

If you buy and sell books you are "dealing". If you setup at a show with a booth you are a dealer. If you buy collections you are a dealer.

 

For me its all about eliminating the middle man (the large comic dealer) and improving my collection by paying the least amount of money. So I keep the books I want and sell of the rest to finance other purchases. When I start setting up at shows with my Adams Batman books then you can call me a dealer.

 

What happens in some cases is that collectors get to the point where they have every book they ever wanted and decide to cash in but in doing so become comic dealers using their personal collections as a springboard.

 

I always think of the difference in collector and dealer in these terms.

 

You come across comic book 'X" whose owner wants $100. The dealer will see that book in terms of what they can sell it for. The collector will see that book in terms of money they can save verses purchasing it off of a dealer.

 

I still view comic books in the latter tense.

[BassGMan]

"Steve Borock has already graciously accepted my invitation to participate."

 

That is true, but as I told Mark, as long as things are set up way ahead of time like:

 

Who is on the panel (people who are good for the hobby and can look at both sides of an argument and discuss it rationally)

 

Who is moderating

 

The moderator is impartial (or at least leave their opinions out)

 

It is not a pressing panel or a witch hunt to see who presses and who does not.

 

......and other things.

 

I do not want the hobby to go back to being the way it was 6-7 years ago. People running around yelling "the sky is falling", dealer's being called evil by the self proclaimed collector's who also buy and sell books when they themselves can't spot restoration, conspiracy theory's about a "shadow Cabnet" running things, and more garbage that took the fun out of the hobby. I love talking comics, but when it comes to the politics, we chase away many more people then we keep in when it comes to politics over the collecting/reading/history aspect.

 

Steve, thanks for pointing out your reasons and expectations for participating. Although it is great that Mark has asked us, the collecting community for input (or I should say (we) a very small fraction of the community), I hope that he just takes a few ideas from us and then runs with it the way he sees fit. Just imagine what kind of panel this forum would put together if we were to try to create one ourselves. It would be horrifying. Entertaining, but horrifying. If our panel was anything like the forum, it would be full of witchhunts, sometimes baseless accusations, gossip, threats, insults, puns, pressing, pressing, more pressing, and various other things mostly exclusive to this group, along with a little bit of good education mixed in with the piles of you know what. It has already started even in this thread, and it's only a few pages old so far. So I ask of Mark, listen to us a little, but ignore us alot more. Do your own thing using your own best judgment. Talk to some of the professionals that you may invite to the panel and get their input. We certainly don't want to scare away any potential panelists for fear of being mocked, ridiculed or raked over the coals the way they often are here.

 

[Aman619]

definitely averag ecollectors should be represented: but where they (we?) belong - - in the AUDIENCE!!! They are the ones who are supposed to be interested in attending such a panel. Not speaking to it. duh!

[Foolkiller]

If you have an hour and a half, there are only a limited number of topics you can discuss thoughtfully. If you want to talk about pressing, the direction of the market, pricing and seller ethics, then I think you can break it down by category:

 

1) One well known professional restoration expert to first EXPLAIN what is entailed with professional pressing, how it is done and what the risk/reward is for the book, so the "average" collector can be informed.

 

2) Two well known dealers of National recognition. Personally, I think you could probably ask somebody like Chuck Rozanski and Vinny Z to do it. Those are honestly the best two people with input.

 

3) Borock, obviously.

 

4) Invite a more "famous" collector to be on the panel. I'm not suggesting per se these guys, but somebody like Schmell or Brulato (even though pseudo dealers). But there are other collectors out there you could ask. But how about asking the guy who writes Mr. Silver Age for CBG or even Maggie Thompson or someone like that.

 

The specifics are all who Mark can get to actually participate for either time reasons or availability.

 

If I only had an hour before questions, I'd start with state of the market, steer towards exciting new innovations, impact of CGC, plans for pressing company arm of CCG, and then spiral from there. Good luck Mark, I'd love to be there for this.

 

FFB specifically gave me permission to start a new thread on this topic in the General section even though I already posted one in the Comic Events section. So if anyone is annoyed by this, talk to my lawyer!

 

 

Unless plans change, I will be hosting/moderating a panel discussion at the San Diego Comic-Con on Friday, July 15, 2005, from 4:00 pm - 5:30 pm. I still haven't decided on final format or named the participants, but it will be designed for discussion purposes of all the controversial and non-controversial topics that dominate our collecting/investment hobby today.

 

For example, we will cover such topics as third-party grading, restoration, pressing, pricing, marketability, future of the hobby, seller ethics, etc. I envision 5-8 participants in a professional round-table forum discussion debating these and other topics for one hour. Then the audience will have an opportunity to join in for an additional 30 minutes.

 

Steve Borock has already graciously accepted my invitation to participate.

 

I turn to you, the comic community, for input. I welcome your thoughts and suggestions for my consideration.

 

(1) What topics/questions would you like to see discussed?

 

(2) What individuals or representatives of a particular population segment (i.e., publisher, dealer, collector, restorer, etc) would you like to see sit on the panel?

 

I hope to see you at the discussion, and to meet you all. If you wish to raise a suggestion with me confidentiality, please do not hesitate to PM or e-mail me.

[inconceivable]

There is no such thing as a "collector" anymore. They are all "DEALERS" in disguise.

 

The minute somebody posts a WTB in the comic book marketplace those "collectors" are in there faster than any true dealer could respond.

Bob,

 

Maybe the definition of collector has to change. Up to recently the collector had to keep books in the collection. They could not take them to a dealer/lcs/wherever and expect to get a fair shake. With the advent of ebay/consignment the opportunity has risen for more people to make some money. People who never sold comics now had a chance to. But I am not sure that makes them dealers who make their living on buying/selling comics.

 

What do you think?

Dan

[Aman619]

good points. Im not sure that getting to pay wholesale every now and then instead of always paying retail, and selling off a few to earn money for buying more comics makes a collector into a dealer. I understand and sympathize with Bobs moans about former customers (collectors) who are selling directly to others now that it has become so easy (to cut out the dealer middlemen, like Bob) but while I too would gripe as Bob does if I were losing out on business as he is, I think Id know the charges are a tad exaggerated.

[Red Hook]

Just imagine what kind of panel this forum would put together if we were to try to create one ourselves. It would be horrifying. Entertaining, but horrifying. If our panel was anything like the forum, it would be full of witchhunts, sometimes baseless accusations, gossip, threats, insults, puns, pressing, pressing, more pressing, and various other things mostly exclusive to this group, along with a little bit of good education mixed in with the piles of you know what. It has already started even in this thread, and it's only a few pages old so far. So I ask of Mark, listen to us a little, but ignore us alot more. Do your own thing using your own best judgment. Talk to some of the professionals that you may invite to the panel and get their input. We certainly don't want to scare away any potential panelists for fear of being mocked, ridiculed or raked over the coals the way they often are here.

 

 

I'm starting to worry a little about you Sid.

 

Reality Check Here! I would bet that a panel constructed of a random selection of regular posters on the boards would be in fact quite civilized. Just take a look at any of the forum dinners or lunches. Quite demure affairs. I think you're getting carried away. Posting on the boards is not real life or real time dialog.

 

It's quite possible to make strong points without grandstanding. I've served on plenty of panels in the graphics arts community that covered topics that I felt very strongly about (ie the use of stock illustration etc) and not once did it ever come to anything more than a heated respectful exchange of differing opinions. Get real, will ya'?

 

I don't take part in witch hunts. That's a cop out and lazy thinking. I've always tried to stay on topic regarding what I consider areas that are in real need of reform in the hobby. I take this very seriously. I try to steer away from personal attacks. I have a right to my opinion. As do you.

 

I have nothing to gain personally from not letting up on this topic (despite the fact that I don't start threads on pressing, and rarely even post about it). All I get out of this is agita. But from the first time I became aware of the artifical inflating of grades and sale prices through pressing, it struck me as a form of dishonesty. It does not add real value to the books. It's got nothing to do with the history or reading of the books, as Steve B. keeps aluding to. It's about the money. That is all. It isn't done for the good of the book. It adds nothing to the book. It's cheating. It's ethically lazy. It creates nothing except fatter wallets.

 

Hey, I wish it were all about the history, and the writing and the artwork. But it isn't, and it does irk me. I've been a reader/collector for 40 years. My life's work was inspired by the books I picked up off the newstand in the mid 60's. Disagree with me. Fine. But enough with the brain-dead labeling of any thread that discusses the downside of the business as a witchhunt.

 

There isn't any conspiracy. I never used the word. I keep trying to keep you guys on topic but you're in love with hyperbole and scoring insult points.

 

Despite what Blazing says, which is a warped view imho , we are not all dealers. I am a collector. Any book I've bought I've intended to keep. Unfortunately I've had to let go of some things. I don't begrudge BSDs from spending large sums. God Bless every one of them.

 

Sid, the topic keeps coming up, because despite your wishes (and MINE!) it isn't going away until there is some kind of resolution. It won't go away just because you're tired of hearing about it. I believe CGC happens to be 100% wrong in their stance on this. And it is...about the money.

 

 

[BassGMan]

Dealer, collector, whatever. Why is it so dang important to create an exact definition for what makes a dealer and what makes a collector and what is in between? Why does it matter? Real dealers are obvious, why do we have to categorize someone who occasionally sells comics (for whatever reason) as a collector/dealer, small dealer, micro dealer, amatuer dealer-collector or whatever? Who cares? I don't. Do you guys really care? Does it make you look at somebody different if they cross the line into dealerhood for whatever reason? Is it important to any of you why somebody sells a few comics? I'm just not sure it matters, but that's just me. Anyway, carry on......