notice postal office opened and inspected media mail 2 2

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 7/25/2018 at 4:50 PM, OdinsSecrets said:

USPS has stated that comic books do not qualify for the reduced rates of media mail.

No, they haven't. 

[OdinsSecrets]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No, they haven't. 

"Media Mail packages may not contain advertising. Comic books do not meet this standard."

This is from https://about.usps.com/notices/not121/not121_tech.htm. Unless things have changed since the statement is quite clear. 

[Callaway29]

2 hours ago, OdinsSecrets said:

"Media Mail packages may not contain advertising. Comic books do not meet this standard."

This is from https://about.usps.com/notices/not121/not121_tech.htm. Unless things have changed since the statement is quite clear. 

Most definitive thing I’ve seen on the subject, although I haven’t devoted a ton of time to reading every post on the subject...so maybe it’s old news. Regardless thanks for sharing.

[Jeffro.]

On 7/25/2018 at 5:34 PM, bronze_rules said:

I received an IDW artist's edition from ebay, with a note on the box stating it was opened and inspected by USPS as it was paid media mail.

Is this normal practice nowadays? I feel like it's a violation of privacy and for all I know, employees could kick it around like a soccer ball (doesn't exactly sit well with me), 

or worse, steal if it had significant value. Package was not even re-taped or sealed, just delivered with the flap seals cut.

 

Do the artist editions have any ads in them? I would argue that AE's could be viewed as a type of educational/research material and if they have no ads then I don't see why they wouldn't be eligible for media mail. An  AE certainly isn't a "comic book" in the conventional sense. Then again, I may be rationalizing and we are talking about the USPS here.  

Edited August 3, 2018 by Jerkfro

[skypinkblu]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:35 AM, ExNihilo said:

Geez, all this for $1?  It depends on who's paying, but if the seller is paying the shipping fees, don't jip me by mailing Media Mail where there's the chance for it to be opened and damaged.  USPS certainly doesn't care about the contents of the package as much as you do when they go back to put everything back in place.  I ship my raw books sandwiched between 2 or 3 layers of priority mail cardboard (2 layers cardboard, book double bagged/double boarded, 3 layers cardboard).  Yes, I know the priority mail cardboard is thin, but when there's a total of 5 layers, it feels pretty sturdy...that and anymore cardboard and it wouldn't fit in my envelope.  Then of course I throw on 2 or more "Fragile - do not bend" stickers on either side of the envelope.  All of that and the package weight comes in at 8oz's.  First Class mail comes with a tracking number and for like $1.50 more, I can insure it up to like $100.  

When I get a book packed like that I cringe. Why on earth waste the USPS boxes cutting them up? The cardboard is too thin and it's a practice that is only going to eventually raise postal rates or get them to stop giving out the boxes. Just go to a store and ask them for some of their empty boxes, most places are thrilled to give them to you... or buy cut boards from Papermart or some place like that?

[Jeffro.]

28 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

When I get a book packed like that I cringe. Why on earth waste the USPS boxes cutting them up? The cardboard is too thin and it's a practice that is only going to eventually raise postal rates or get them to stop giving out the boxes. Just go to a store and ask them for some of their empty boxes, most places are thrilled to give them to you... or buy cut boards from Papermart or some place like that?

I grab cardboard from work and use one of those old school guillotine paper cutters to cut them up. 

A couple years ago, they were replacing all the lighting fixtures in the office. Each fixture was packaged with a big flat piece of thick cardboard. The lighting guys were all too happy to let me take those. I got two comic sized pieces and two larger sized pieces from each panel.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Jerkfro

[Fan Boy]

49 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

When I get a book packed like that I cringe. Why on earth waste the USPS boxes cutting them up? The cardboard is too thin and it's a practice that is only going to eventually raise postal rates or get them to stop giving out the boxes. Just go to a store and ask them for some of their empty boxes, most places are thrilled to give them to you... or buy cut boards from Papermart or some place like that?

 

23 minutes ago, Jerkfro said:

I grab cardboard from work and use one of those old school guillotine paper cutters to cut them up. 

A couple years ago, they were replacing all the lighting fixtures in the office. Each fixture was packaged with a big flat piece of thick cardboard. The lighting guys were all too happy to let me take those. I got two comic sized pieces and two larger sized pieces from each panel.

1+  

I get thick cardboard from my work. It is auto body repair shop, and most people didn’t know is that many auto parts suppliers/dealers ship parts in thick cardboard boxes most of times. Sometimes I got lucky in scoring prefect square boxes that I can ship a small lot of comics packed easily inside that box. I also use them to pack my personal stuff for storage as well. All free!

i also have a old school paper cutter as well. Big one. 

Now... that media mail topic? I know how you folks feel, I got that once in awhile. Recently I got one package which a seller mailed with two thin postal cardboard sheets sandwiched the book. Incredible... the book survived by itself. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, OdinsSecrets said:

"Media Mail packages may not contain advertising. Comic books do not meet this standard."

This is from https://about.usps.com/notices/not121/not121_tech.htm. Unless things have changed since the statement is quite clear. 

Sorry, but, as with all government entities, the USPS is governed by official regulations, in this case the Domestic Mail Manual, or "DMM." 

If it's not in the DMM, it is non-binding. What you have linked there...as official as it may appear to be...is merely someone's opinion. Until and unless such language is incorporated into the DMM itself...that statement carries no weight whatsoever.

This is been discussed at great length on the boards before.

Edited August 3, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Callaway29 said:

Most definitive thing I’ve seen on the subject, although I haven’t devoted a ton of time to reading every post on the subject...so maybe it’s old news. Regardless thanks for sharing.

However, since it's not in the DMM, it's utterly irrelevant, regardless of how definitive it may appear to be.

[Callaway29]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

However, since it's not in the DMM, it's utterly irrelevant, regardless of how definitive it may appear to be.

An official notice by the USPS, explicitly stating comic books are not appropriate for media mail, is “utterly irrelevant” to whether comic books are appropriate for media mail?

Uhhhh, ok...sure...

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

Do the artist editions have any ads in them? I would argue that AE's could be viewed as a type of educational/research material and if they have no ads then I don't see why they wouldn't be eligible for media mail. An  AE certainly isn't a "comic book" in the conventional sense. Then again, I may be rationalizing and we are talking about the USPS here.  

The AEs are precisely the type of educational material that the Media Mail (formerly "Book Rate") service was designed for in the first place. The hysteria that some corners have over Media Mail and comics has become so ludicrous, they've totally lost sight of the point. "It has drawings! It must not therefore be educational!!!"

And the whole point of "no ads" was to prevent publishers of commercial magazines and newspapers...yes, like NEW comics...to ship them via the service, since they were commercial, rather than educational, publications, and advertising was generally the way to tell which was which. 

Now, because of "interpretations" by various entities...up to and including whomever posted that bit on the USPS' website...have lost the forest for the trees, and you can't ship via Media Mail a bundle of beat up  80s Star comics to a school because they're...GASP!!...comic books!

It's bureaucracy at its finest. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

14 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

An official notice by the USPS, explicitly stating comic books are not appropriate for media mail, is “utterly irrelevant” to whether comic books are appropriate for media mail?

Uhhhh, ok...sure...

Once more: the Domestic Mail Manual governs the USPS. If it's not in the DMM, it's not official, and carries no regulatory weight. All other "notices", regardless of from or by whom, regardless of where, as "official" as they might appear, therefore represent only opinions. There is nothing "official" about that notice, despite its appearance, and which the notice itself acknowledges when it refers to the DMM at the end: "Complete explanations of qualified items can be found in the DMM."

Except even that's not true, since the DMM contains no such language, and is hardly "complete" as this "official" notice claims.

Here is a link to the DMM:

https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/dmm300_landing.htm

The relevant text is from 173.4

Edited August 3, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Jeffro.]

43 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

53 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

However, since it's not in the DMM, it's utterly irrelevant, regardless of how definitive it may appear to be.

An official notice by the USPS, explicitly stating comic books are not appropriate for media mail, is “utterly irrelevant” to whether comic books are appropriate for media mail?

Uhhhh, ok...sure...

So which do you believe, the DMM (USPS official as well, btw) or that link? Compound the clusterpoopy with the fact that your average USPS worker may not even have a clear understanding of it. I suppose you could say that the mere presence of ads (even decades out of date) eliminate comic books from MM. However, some postal employees will say that MM is fine for comics, some won't. Depends on who is working at any particular USPS branch on any given day. That's the real problem, ignorance of the rules and inconsistent enforcement which all leads to confusion and multiple threads about it on this board
 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Jerkfro

[Callaway29]

4 minutes ago, Jerkfro said:

So which do you believe, the DMM (USPS official as well, btw) or that link? Compound the clusterpoopy with the fact that your average USPS may not even have a clear understanding of it. Some will say that MM is fine for comics, some won't. Depends on who is working at any particular USPS branch on any given day.
 

I believe the one that is explicit. DMM leaves room for interpretation, the notice provides clarification (its whole purpose). If you’re looking for loopholes for a legal arugement or something, sure...I suppose a lawyer could make a case. But if the goal is to understand USPS’s intent...they made it clear. Those notices aren’t one person’s opinion. They are coming from an office that’s charged with managing policy, and before any notice goes public I’m sure there are multiple review cycles and levels of authorization required. That’s my perspective...I acknowledge some obviously view it different.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

I believe the one that is explicit. DMM leaves room for interpretation, the notice provides clarification (its whole purpose). If you’re looking for loopholes for a legal arugement or something, sure...I suppose a lawyer could make a case. But if the goal is to understand USPS’s intent...they made it clear. Those notices aren’t one person’s opinion. They are coming from an office that’s charged with managing policy, and before any notice goes public I’m sure there are multiple review cycles and levels of authorization required. That’s my perspective...I acknowledge some obviously view it different.

These aren't "loopholes" being discussed. Remember: the DMM is the document which governs the USPS. If it's not in the DMM, it carries no weight. "Notices" don't get to "provide clarification." That's what the DMM is for. Otherwise...it's just opinion. I didn't say they were "one person's opinion." I said it was just opinion. That opinion could come from the Postmaster General herself...it still carries no regulatory weight. Governmental and quasi-governmental agencies such as the USPS operate by regulation, which is codified by legislative bodies (in this case, Congress), and published...not declaration from management, as with private entities. And yes, there are frequently those who do what they want anyways, in spite of regulation, but if challenged legally...the regulatory manual (almost always) wins.

If your goal is to understand the USPS' intent, I'll simply ask you: what is the intent of the Media Mail service as a whole...?

[ExNihilo]

3 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

When I get a book packed like that I cringe. Why on earth waste the USPS boxes cutting them up? The cardboard is too thin and it's a practice that is only going to eventually raise postal rates or get them to stop giving out the boxes. Just go to a store and ask them for some of their empty boxes, most places are thrilled to give them to you... or buy cut boards from Papermart or some place like that?

The cardboard itself is thin, but when layered is surprisingly thick.  it's still not as sturdy as the thick pieces of cardboard (think 2 half back boards vs 1 full back), but to date i haven't had any issues.  (I've also probably only shipped out 10 books so we're not talking a big data set here).  That said, you're right.  I should probably ask our shipping & receiving department for their extra cardboard boxes.  I would imagine they must see a lot come through on a daily basis.

[revat]

19 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

39 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

I believe the one that is explicit. DMM leaves room for interpretation, the notice provides clarification (its whole purpose). If you’re looking for loopholes for a legal arugement or something, sure...I suppose a lawyer could make a case. But if the goal is to understand USPS’s intent...they made it clear. Those notices aren’t one person’s opinion. They are coming from an office that’s charged with managing policy, and before any notice goes public I’m sure there are multiple review cycles and levels of authorization required. That’s my perspective...I acknowledge some obviously view it different.

These aren't "loopholes" being discussed. Remember: the DMM is the document which governs the USPS. If it's not in the DMM, it carries no weight. "Notices" don't get to "provide clarification." That's what the DMM is for. Otherwise...it's just opinion. I didn't say they were "one person's opinion." I said it was just opinion. That opinion could come from the Postmaster General herself...it still carries no regulatory weight. Governmental and quasi-governmental agencies such as the USPS operate by regulation, which is codified by legislative bodies (in this case, Congress), and published...not declaration from management, as with private entities. And yes, there are frequently those who do what they want anyways, in spite of regulation, but if challenged legally...the regulatory manual (almost always) wins.

If your goal is to understand the USPS' intent, I'll simply ask you: what is the intent of the Media Mail service as a whole...?

My anecdotal experience is that its pretty much up to the person inspecting it and if there is official guidance, its not pushed hard enough in training, or workers just don't care enough.  I just got sent a slab by media mail (I certainly didn't ask for it), AND IT WAS OPENED AND INSPECTED.  I was pretty worried, but there was no fee assessment and the slab was fine.  But there's also been times where I've had to pay extra upon delivery (which I charged back to the seller) for comics. 

[s-dali]

Comic books are not allowed to mailed media mail. Media mail was designed for educational institutes. The USPS does not allow periodicals to mailed by media mail.

The first screen shot is from DMM Section 173 that RMA quoted above. The scond screen shot is from the DMM section regarding periodicals, section 207. This has NOTHING to do with advertising.

 

Enforcement of the rule varies greatly.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by s-dali

[Skeptic_Kepp]

33 minutes ago, s-dali said:

 

I think I figured it out: 

Only VG comics can use Media Mail, and only VG/FN comics can use Library Mail. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Skeptic_Kepp
I suck at quoting.

[The Lions Den]

5 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

I grab cardboard from work and use one of those old school guillotine paper cutters to cut them up. 

I thought I was the only one who still did this. (It's also a good way to remove fingers that you don't really need...)