7 YEAR MICRO-CHAMBER TUNE-UP?

[BronzeBruce13]

I will just call CGC from now on... but I can tell you those questions alarmed me more than anything I've ever heard on these boards! The funny thing about this forum is we all strive for info and answers and waste so much time heading down the wrong paths... I wish CGC could afford to put a rep. on here to play a more active "info-giving" role.

[fantastic_four]

Blowout--the worry isn't the microchamber paper eating away at the comic; the worry is that the comic will eat away at itself. Microchamber paper doesn't degrade at nearly the same rate the cheap [!@#%^&^] comics are made out of. I wouldn't focus on what CGC intentionally did wrong; they didn't tell Marvel and DC to print comics on paper that doesn't last for long periods of time. I highly doubt CGC intentionally did anything wrong. The thing to focus on is what needs to be done to improve any problems that might be there.

 

Steve confirmed that it is basically a recommendation IF you want to person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point the natural aging process EVEN FURTHER than a properly stored comic. Wheeew! We're talking well beyond our lifetimes as I understood it. The inner well is not 100% airtight for the record, although I did not think to ask the specifics of that.

The specifics of that are the only thing that can put the issue to rest. He has said before that the well isn't designed to be airtight; I take that to mean that they didn't test whether their process leads to all airtight cases or no airtight cases. However, since Manning's books survived underwater, that means that even though they didn't design it to be airtight, some of them do turn out that way. And since we can't just look at a slab and tell which are airtight and which aren't, if you want to err on the side of caution, you've got to assume they're all airtight.

 

Comics in CGC cases are not stored in the same way a normal comic is. Mylars, mylites, and polybags are NEVER airtight unless you seal them in a very non-standard way. The question then becomes, for those CGC cases that are airtight, will the acids from the [!@#%^&^] paper comics are printed on get trapped in there with the book to degrade it even faster? The answer is yes, it will. Nothing noticable over the timespan of a few years. Maybe not even a few decades. But it's important to figure out approximately how storing comics that way affects their aging. That would take the opinion of a conservation expert.

 

Unfortunately, based upon the evidence I've heard, the 7-year tuneup is likely to be a fact. More realistically, it's a 7-to-10-year tuneup that most people would let ride to 15 years just like they do with their 3000-mile oil changes. But I doubt this is something they designed into the system; if they ever thought about it at all, it's more likely it occurred to them after they had already designed the case than that they planned for the case to be harmful over a 20- to 50-year span. An important question is this--who designed the case--was it the Collector's Society? Coins, currency, and cards don't have the same risks of decay that a comic does since they're not made out of a few dozen sheets of totally crappy paper. It's entirely possible that the Collector's Society designed the case without planning for acid buildup inside. The microchamber paper could have been added in as a best-effort to soak that contained acid up.

 

So does the CGC case really cause storage problems over a long period of time? I don't know. The evidence so far sounds like it does, but there could be facts not yet presented which contradict this idea.

[fantastic_four]

1 has been lovingly cared for (BronzeBruce pedigreed) and the other has been left in open sunlight and some fading has occurred to the colours (let's say enough to drag it down .2. How will the buyer know this?

They won't. There's no solution to this other than using the date-of-grading as an indicator of risk.

[BronzeBruce13]

Yes .. that is a possibility. I sure hope that collectors that are into collecting enough to pay more for slabbed copies have the intelligence to realize that the slab is not UV coated or anything... and the slabbed comic can suffer damage within the slab in a number of ways... and certainly if left in unfavorable environments.

 

I would guess you'd want to avoid... direct sunlight, excessive light in general, damp basements, storing it next to a heater, in a catbox... whatever... common sense.

 

I suppose we'll have to examine our slabs for defects/conditions that don't add up and if there's a noticeable problem force the seller to accept a return? I can't imagine improperly stored slabs being a very common... but maybe I'm giving us all too much credit

[BronzeBruce13]

Good points... I understand some of the GM books did suffer water damage and some didn't which does support your contention that some inner wells "may" be airtight enough and others are not... more research is needed I suppose.

 

I'll see if SB has a moment to elaborate on that point before the weekend.

 

I have an idea though... lets say our worst fears are realized and some wells are airtight and will need maintenance (and I'm not ready to jump there yet)... since we can't identify which ones may be airtight... if you were to carefully drill a small hole through the slab and puncture the well... would that take care of the problem? No... I'm not suggesting anyone do this... I'm just curious if that would solve the problem in theory.

 

BTW... haven't you consulted a preservation expert or 2?

[blowout]

So does the CGC case really cause storage problems over a long period of time? I don't know. The evidence so far sounds like it does, but there could be facts not yet presented that contradict this idea.

 

Great points FF. I don't know enough about the micro-chamber paper to assume it will become inert after 7 years as CGC have not confirmed what kind of paper they use. Therefore, I was concerned that the micro-chamber will ADD to the acid produced within the slab by the book itself.

Does anyone have access to a paper conservation expert who could advise us about the acid build up in a potentially air tight slab?

[fantastic_four]

BTW... haven't you consulted a preservation expert or 2?

I first heard the hypothesis that the CGC case is harmful because it traps acid in with the book around 2 years ago in an auction description on E-Bay. I contacted that seller and asked him what evidence he had to back that up, or where he got the idea. He told me a conservation expert who deals with non-comic paper documents made that comment to him when he described the way CGC is encapsulating comics.

 

I'll ask Tracey Heft and Matt Nelson if they'll post here about this topic. It's possible that they won't to avoid the appearance of antagonizing CGC, but I'll give it a shot.

[Newerthannew]

Hi Everyone,

 

I'll ask Tracey Heft and Matt Nelson if they'll post here about this topic. It's possible that they won't to avoid the appearance

of antagonizing CGC, but I'll give it a shot

 

I'm not afraid of antagonizing CGC just afraid of them suing or slandering my reputation, so here are my two cents

(sorry for the length):

 

To recap, the problem seems to center around the effectiveness of the Micro-chamber papers (formely manufactured by

Hollinger Corporation out of Virginia by the way) and their ability to absorb potentially harmful vapours which originate from the

off-gassing of manufactured paper as it ages. As shown in countless research papers, these secondary products can become acidic

over time under the proper circumstances. It has been suggested that the paper will only last approximately 7 years before it

is rendered ineffective at absorbing the harmful constituents trapped inside the inner well.

 

To address the question of the Microchamber paper and the 7 year life-effectiveness of the paper, one must first understand the

concept of micro-environments and equilibrium. As I wrote in February 1994 for Overstreet's Comic Book Monthly:

 

When a comic is placed into a bag and that bag is sealed, air exchange is minimalized and a "micro-environment" is created.

The sealed comic in it's newly created micro-environment will begin to degrade and deteriorate - especially if the environment that the

comic is stored in is of poor quality.

 

As the fibers of the paper break down and the cellulose chain begins to fracture, the comic will start to emit all sorts of pollutants

which, if trapped inside the bag, remain active and further the destruction of the book. Only when equilibrium is reached -

usually at the end of the comic book's useful and collectible life, will the chemical reactions causing the degradation of the paper,

cease.

 

AND

 

The reactions which result in the degradation of the comic are only aggravated if the bag or box the book is stored

in contributes to the degradation of the comic. Bags and boxes high in acidic compounds (polyvinyl chlorides (PVC'S) or lignin)

should not be used for long term storage, as they will attack the comic book that they are supposed to be protecting.

 

Simply leaving the bags or boxes open to air circulation is not enough. Air that is allowed to circulate in and

around the collection must be of high quality, that is, it must be at the right relative humidity and the proper temperature.

 

AND

 

If the recommended levels for storage are not attainable in your present situation, and it is reasonable to assume

that they are not, then it is probably better for your collection to "breath" instead of creating a micro-environment where

damage is almost certain to occur. Even though some damage may occur because the air quality in the storage area is

poor, the collection will eventually re-adjust itself to the storage area forming an equilibrium with it's surrounding environment.

Once the books have reached this point of equilibrium, reactions between the collection and the environment will slow or even

cease. It then becomes very important that the environment, whether good or bad, remain as stable as possible to prevent

any further damage from occurring to the collection over time.

 

AND in an unpublished article I wrote for the Comic Book Marketplace:

 

...equilibrium occurs when there is no change in environmental conditions.

That is, equilibrium can only occur when conditions remain the same, as changes in the storage environment disrupt the

balance, forcing a new equilibrium to be formed.

 

With reduced or eliminated air exchange between the outside atmosphere and the storage environment, equilibrium or

near-equilibrium conditions are achieved and chemical reactions are slowed and possibly even halted. If the equilibrium

is disrupted (like opening the box) - the reactions will begin anew and continue until the conditions inside settle on a

new equilibrium

 

Any questions on equilibrium and the concept of micro-environments?

 

How does this apply to the inner well of the CGC holder and the Microchamber paper utilized within the well? The inner well, once

encapsulated becomes a micro-environment and since CGC is using a plastic known as Barex (see my article on plastic containers

on page 71 of the August 2002 issue of Comic Book Marketplace) it provides a relatively good protection against outside atmospheric

pollutants from entering into the micro-environment. Good, but not perfect - more on that later. The Microchamber paper really only

has to absorb the contaminants already

present in the inner well (and any future contaminents that may occur). Since the inner well is a micro-environment, those

contaminents are going to originate from the comic itself. So the question should center around the paper and the prevention of

pollutants and not the microchamber paper and it's ability to absorb those pollutants.

 

The solution is simple. Make sure that your storage environment is of the highest quality with stable humidity and temperature levels.

Avoid light, keep things cool and dry. The microchamber paper will absorb what it can while the comic paper reachs equilibrium and

no new pollutants are being produced. It takes a chemical reaction between the atmosphere and the paper to produce the acids which

will eat away the paper. By halting the reaction, no further pollutants will form and the micro-chamber paper will not need to absorb

anything to help preserve the comic.

 

As an aside, no-one has tested the absorption capabilites of

Microchamber papers so there is no empirical data on how much a sheet can hold before reaching it's limit. A best guess might be 7

years, but it might also be 2 or it might be 100. However, the paper does not turn color when saturated and so how can one be sure

of it's ability to absorb the off-gases?

 

One thing for certain is that it's ability to absorb is related to how much pollutant

it is being exposed to. The more pollutants the quicker the paper will reach saturation. So, books from Jersey and New York and

Cinncinnati and Detroit and other major pollution centers with wide varying degrees of humidity and temperature flux will have

paper that is high in potential contaminants. Did I mention Florida, in my list? I should have. So, if your books are being sent from an

area of high relative humidity and large amounts of atmospheric pollution to a state where humidity is high (like Florida and before that

New Jersey) and they are

being encapsulated, then the microchamber paper has an uphill battle ahead as the paper has a lot of potential contaminants it will

need to absorb before reaching equilibrium. Add to this the factor that many CGC books are being shipped around the country to

various conventions and you have a bigger problem.

 

The bigger problem is that everytime Harley or Steve or Danny or whoever hops on a plane or drives across country to a convention,

the environmental conditions are changing. The simple act of a thunderstorm or change in atmospheric pressure will force the outside

macro-environment into the inner micro-environment causing a disruption in the equilibrium and degradation will start all over again. But

short of not selling anything to anybody or all of us moving to Denver or Arizona, rest assured that once the book has reached your

storage area it will attempt to adjust to the environment which is present and form a new equilibrium. The microchamber paper will

(hopefully) be capable of absorbing the new contaminants.

 

However, Hollinger Corp no longer sells the Microchamber paper and the question must be asked as to why! Well, from their own

catalog, their statement says "Merely absorbing the gases is not sufficient because these systems can be reversed thus re-emitting

the dangerous gases now in higher concentrations."

 

WOW. That's a pretty scary statement. So when the paper reaches saturation, it can then become a source of contamination.

 

I believe that CGC utilized the microchamber paper because their research led them to believe that it was the best product to use

(and it probably was) at the time. However, their lack of understanding about micro-environments, equilibrium and basic conservation

issues has created a potentially huge problem for us collectors. I firmly believe that the microchamber sheets were inserted not to

absorb harmful gases (that is just a happy accident) but to protect the covers from yellowing due to oil migration (as seen in Silver Age

Marvel's). By using a product

such as microchamber paper (which is a decent product, don't get me wrong) in a system where the collector cannot replace the sheets

on a regular basis (such as encapsulation) then they have accidentally created a potentially huge problem - one that they can

solve be resealing the books every couple of years.

 

Any questions or comments?

 

 

 

 

[Bonds25]

I mailed Spider-Man #1 to them (specifically to be re-cased), and they called me and said damage occured in shipping (which I think was a crock because the book looked identical when I got it back), and they lowered the grade from a 9.8 to a 9.6.

[blowout]

 

First of all thanks for coming on to the boards and posting. This is an issue that has concerned many of us here, and we have had no real response from CGC on the issue.

 

However, Hollinger Corp no longer sells the Microchamber paper and the question must be asked as to why! Well, from their own catalog, their statement says "Merely absorbing the gases is not sufficient because these systems can be reversed thus re-emitting

the dangerous gases now in higher concentrations."

 

WOW. That's a pretty scary statement. So when the paper reaches saturation, it can then become a source of contamination.

 

 

This is exactly the fact that concerns me the most. If the micro-chamber is not changed after a certain period (maybe even 2 years??) the IT will become the worst enemy of the book and will start to damage it rather than protect it.

It seems to me that from what you are saying that it would be better to encapsulate the book WITHOUT the micro-chmaber paper. Then there would be no need to re-slab the book every few years as the rest of the storage materials are inert.

Am I correct in this assumption?

[fantastic_four]

It seems to me that from what you are saying that it would be better to encapsulate the book WITHOUT the micro-chmaber paper. Then there would be no need to re-slab the book every few years as the rest of the storage materials are inert.

Am I correct in this assumption?

The way I'm reading his words, the acid doesn't originate from the microchamber paper...the microchamber paper is what buys you some time, but once it's saturated, there's a problem. Once it gets full, then his point is that it will start to release some of the acid it absorbed from the comic. If it wasn't in there, the acid would just eat at the comic from the start.

 

If you spill some water or a bottle of oil and use one paper towel to wipe it up, after the paper towel is saturated, it's not helping...it's just spreading around the stuff it has already absorbed.

[PovertyRow]

The way I'm reading his words, the acid doesn't originate from the microchamber paper...the microchamber paper is what buys you some time, but once it's saturated, there's a problem. Once it gets full, then his point is that it will start to release some of the acid it absorbed from the comic. If it wasn't in there, the acid would just eat at the comic from the start.

 

That is exactly how I read it. It DOES lend credence to CGC's recommendation to re-slab, although not really sure how seven years was determined. But the way I see it, the books that need it the most can potentially suffer the most. Folks living in those high humidity hot spots, even for the duration of a summer, will surely see effects sooner with or without the paper if their storage areas are not climate controlled. It would be potentially catastrophic if the absorbtion rate was considerably higher than "normal" due to bad storage. Once the paper stops absorbing and starts emitting things are going to go downhill a more rapidly. A really hard call to make and a really good case for proper storage conditions.

[BronzeBruce13]

Dooooooh ... I felt relieved after my conversation with SB, but after the hearing (Tracey Heft or Matt Nelson?).. I obviously feel we need more clarification. I'm not going to jump the gun and speculate again as my mind is racing in several directions.

 

I'm going to call over again Friday and see if SB has any time to discuss this in more detail or if the consultants CGC worked with would be willing to try and answer the new and very specific issues that have been raised. If he's busy, I'll try again on Monday for sure. I'm more for calling and asking now then guessing on issues that are beyond my full understanding.

 

I'm obviously holding out hope that there are answers and proof forthcoming that will put our minds at ease for good... the other alternative is very depressing.

 

Thanks to (Tracey Heft or Matt Nelson?) for the detailed explanation and attempt to give us a better understanding of the science involved with this issue... my head hurts again... but we need to know if our comics are safe and if not what can we do to change that. I know that at least MN has no axe to grind with CGC as he gave a testimonial complimenting CGC in their first brochure... so these comments, if his, have credibility.

 

I think Arty left a link early in this thread where the producers of the microchamber paper can be reached. If anyone has a minute... maybe they would take the time to answer some questions in relation to their product that is no longer being produced according to this new info?

[PovertyRow]

Daggnabbit

 

Hey! I hold the TM on dagnabbit 'round heayah!

[BronzeBruce13]

Huh?

[PovertyRow]

Huh?

 

Hey! You changed dagnabbit to Dooooh or some such!

[BronzeBruce13]

you need sleep I always use Doooh!

[PovertyRow]

I always use Doooh

 

Doooh! I must hav bin rong!

[Newerthannew]

Hi Again

 

It seems to me that from what you are saying that it would be better to encapsulate the book WITHOUT the micro-chmaber paper. Then there would be no need to re-slab the book every few years as the rest of the storage materials are inert.

Am I correct in this assumption?

 

On one hand, that is what I am saying - that hand stemming from the position

in conservation that you do not use something until it has been studied and

proven safe. A few years ago (about 15 or so) people were selling Vapour

Phase sheets (VPD and I don't remember what the d stands for) which were

designed to scavenge the oxygen from the environment and thus prevent oxidation

(aka damage). Everyone used them only to later discover that VPD actually

saturated quickly and became a source of contamination. Another example of

an item being embraced by the conservation world and then abandoned after

time had passed? TAPE, yes TAPE was a legitimate conservation tool in the 60's

which is why I have a career now

 

What I meant was more along the lines of this:

 

The way I'm reading his words, the acid doesn't originate from the microchamber paper...the microchamber paper is what buys you some time, but once it's saturated, there's a problem. Once it gets full, then his point is that it will start to release some of the acid it absorbed from the comic. If it wasn't in there, the acid would just eat at the comic from the start.

 

And to clarify further, it has to reach a point of saturation before trouble begins. In

a micro-environment there is a limited amount of air and pollutants and so the sheet might be good enough. Once equilibrium is reached everything will stop

and if the equilibrium changes, everything will start again. If the sheet is saturated

there will be trouble, if the sheet is able to absorb it will absorb. The real problem

is telling when the sheet has reached capacity. Here's a question, who is to say

that the sheet hasn't already reached capacity before it's been inserted? Just a

question and not meant to cause trouble.....

 

As my wife likes to say, CGC is selling a grading service and NOT a storage

system or storage solution! Keep that in mind.

 

One other thing I want to address:

 

I know that at least MN has no axe to grind with CGC as he gave a testimonial complimenting CGC in their first brochure... so these comments, if his, have credibility.

 

Huh? Does that mean that if they are not from Matt then they have no credibility? Don't understand that. Simply, I refuse to give a testimonial to most people as I believe it hurts my credibility and clouds the fact that I am able to remain neutral as I don't represent any ONE person or company. I admit when I am wrong and I have the ability to call a spade a spade in the hopes that my knowledge base leads to something better for the whole hobby.

 

Ultimately, I hope that the powers that be at CGC read this thread, reconsider their opinions on me and my motivations and seek out the information that will improve their product.

 

Tracey Heft

(who forgot to sign the last post)

[fantastic_four]

Can you think of any ways CGC could improve the archival safety of its case?

 

Bruce is wondering whether he should drill holes in his slabs because of this issue. If you can control the temperature and humidity your comics are stored in, is a microenvironment such as the one created by the CGC slab preferable to letting it breathe? I read what you said above (quoted from a 1994 article you wrote and I re-read today) about how if the temperature and humidity are too high or constantly changing that releasing a comic from its bag- or slab-created microenvironment is preferrable. But what about microenvironments stored within a stable "macro"-environment? Right now I'm not sure whether microenvironments are a good or a bad thing, and I think that's one of the core questions of this thread, apart from the value of the microchamber paper. And it's an issue that should be of wide appeal to comic collectors, especially since almost all 4-mil Mylars are produced with open tops that have no built-in method of being sealed to create a microenvironment.

 

The part of your article that particularly has me wondering is the following statement:

 

Only when equilibrium is reached - usually at the end of the comic book's useful and collectible life, will the chemical reactions causing the degradation of the paper, cease.

The bit about "usually at the end of the comic book's useful and collectible life" seems to infer that it takes decades for a comic to reach equilibrium in a microenvironment, since even a comic stored in an outdoor shed takes at least a decade or so to reach the "end of its useful and collectible life." How long does equilibrium take to reach in a stable environment? And how stable is stable? On the east coast, the humidity is often 25% in the winter and 75% in the summer. Even with a dehumidifier, most people aren't going to be able to prevent the humidity from varying between the 25% low and 40% to 50% in the summer with the dehumidifier running. Is that 25% change--which is within the recommended humidity levels I most often hear for paper--enough to disturb the equilibrium of a microenvironment?