Legion vs New XMen question...

[Aman619]

Im sure this has been dfiscussed often here, but, I was looking thru my Superboy/Legion issues from the mid 70s, from 200 thru 257. And I saw that in 1974 - 5 Dave Cockrum was drawing the Legion stories (written I think by Jim Shooter. So, I always thought that the New XMen came back as a Marvel decision to bring back the XMen independent from any DC conection.

 

So, now to me it seems Marvel wanted a teen book like the Legion, and even recruited Cockrum to draw it. Was that how it happenned? Was the XMen return Marvels answer to Legion just as FF was to teh Justice League??

[Zonker]

I don't think so, though I'm as huge a fan of the Cockrum Legion as you'll find on here.

 

Cockrum did indeed break in on the Legion strip written by Cary Bates. Jim Shooter's return to the strip was later, when Mike Grell was drawing. Cockrum designed those great 1970s-vintage costumes for the Legion chicks (bell bottoms on Phantom Lady, Saturn Girl in a bikini).

 

The story goes that Cockrum wanted the original art back from his centerfold to Superboy/Legion 200 (the wedding issue, attended by everyone from J'onn J'onzz to Tars Tarkas). DC refused, so Cockrum walked across town to Marvel. Supposedly Cockrum had created a Nightcrawler-like character as a to-be-introduced Legionnaire, so his skill at costume/character design was no doubt the reason he got the New X-Men gig.

[Aman619]

thanx... I did not know any of that series of events... any info on why Marvel picked that moment to re-introduce the XMen though? Was Legion a hot book? I was phasing out at that time and wasnt reading either book...

[Zonker]

Some of the Bronze Age Marvel guys here could no doubt speculate better than I.

 

I do think 1975 was a turning point of sorts. The horror craze was on the wane. Conan looked to be more the exception rather than the model for a new Sword & Sorcery comics genre. Most of what I consider the really cool Bronze books were done on the fringes of the super-hero genre in 1970-74. By 1975 the industry was retrenching, at least creatively. Spider-Man and the traditional Marvel heroes were still selling like hotcakes, while most of the non-super characters were dying out (Conan and Howard the Duck excepted). It probably was a no-brainer to try to revive the X-Men, since the title was still being printed, albeit reprints only.

 

The way in which the X-Men was revived may though have had a lot to do with Dave Cockrum. As I recall, he was/is a huge fan of the Blackhawks from the Golden Age, and I think Cockrum may in fact be credited with the idea of opening the New X-Men up into a truly international group along the lines of the WWII Blackhawks.

[Aman619]

how long was teh gap between XMen 93 and 94? It was about a year right?

[Zonker]

 

OldGuy.... paging Mr. OldGuy...

[awe4one]

how long was teh gap between XMen 93 and 94? It was about a year right?

 

Four months...

 

X-Men #93 April 1975

X-Men #94 August 1975

 

Actually it could be argued that there wasn't really a break. X-Men was bi-monthly at the time. Giant-Size X-Men was coverdated May 1975 followed by #94 three months later. GS X-Men could be considered the bi-monthly issue between 93/94...

 

I honestly thought the break was much longer...

 

Jim

[Sal]

Len Wein / UGO interview - the pertinent snippet is below;

UGO: What did you think of the X-Men movies?

 

LW: I love them. I met Hugh Jackman, he's a terrific person and better looking in person, dammit! [laughs]. I think they've done an amazing job especially with my characters. Jackman's Wolverine is dead-on perfect and Alan Cummings Nightcrawler was extraordinary.

 

UGO: Do you remember the inspirations for those characters?

 

LW: Much of it was from working with Dave Cockrum. Dave had put together various visuals for some of the characters. There were no personalities yet so we sat down and put them together. Over the years the various super-teams I've helped put together I've learned that you put together a dynamic. What types of powers and personalities would make a good team. You mix and match until you have that balance that works for you. That's how the X-Men came to be.

 

i also found this, which is appropos of nothing...

 

Comic book writing-veteran Chris Claremont had originally intended for Mystique and Destiny to have been Nightcrawler's biological parents (Mystique, being a shapeshifter, would have taken the form of a man and impregnated Destiny.) Marvel, however, felt the idea to be too controversial and it was nixed.

[shadroch]

In 1974,there was a cult of X-Men fans hounding for the teams return. The bi-monthly reprint sold as well as some of the regular books.

When x-team members appeared in an extended story arc in Capt.America,sales indicated many new readers picked up the book.

Issue 93 contained a reprint of an extended arc where Magneto has captured the group and Angel escapes,only to run into the Golden Age Red Raven.Magneto is about to unleash his fury upon the captured X-Men when,in the last panel,the Avengers show up.

Two months later,instead of continuing this story,a new group of freaks apeared,calling themselves the New X-Men.

And they never did manage to finish the story from 93.

I don't think the Legion was realy all that hot at the time. After years of back-up story status,they had recently gotten their own title,but certainly were not setting the world on fire.

[Silver Surfer]

What is the status of the Red Raven? Dead?

[shadroch]

Sorry to say I don't remember.Angel runs into him and ends up in some sort of sky-city but I'm fuzzy on the details.

[Aman619]

is nt that the XMen Lost Yeras mini series that Byrne did a few years back? But Im confused - - If the reprint in 93 was unfinished, it was stilla reprint wasnt it? so didnt the whole story end somewhere in print? And is so, didnt the story alreday HAVE an ending? So why did Byrne feel compelled to finish it recently?

[shadroch]

Yes,the story was a reprint,but living wherever I was living in at the time,there were no stores that sold back issues.Marvel promised to finish reprinting the story in GS X-men #2,but didn't.

I was really turned off by the New Xmen(my two favorites were Sunfire and T-Bird),so when they didn't follow thru with the reprint and then ripped off a Seaboard story to "create" Phoenix,I said adeu to the title. Didn't pick it up again until issue 120,when word of mouth got me interested.

Don't know anything about Brynes Lost Years books,this is the first I've heard of them. Are they worh tracking down?

[awe4one]

so when they didn't follow thru with the reprint and then ripped off a Seaboard story to "create" Phoenix,I said adeu to the title.

 

You're not talking anout the Atlas/Seaboard Phoenix comics are you? After the name, I don't see the similarities...

 

Jim

[Aman619]

Don't know anything about Brynes Lost Years books,this is the first I've heard of them. Are they worh tracking down?

 

I gave it a try, but its like most recent Byrnes mini-series, its a lot of stuff going on, and a lot of words etc. And a lot of plot threads all going this way and that. But - - if youre an XMen fan or a Byrne fan it oughtta be worth a try.

[awe4one]

Don't know anything about Brynes Lost Years books,this is the first I've heard of them. Are they worh tracking down?

 

I gave it a try, but its like most recent Byrnes mini-series, its a lot of stuff going on, and a lot of words etc. And a lot of plot threads all going this way and that. But - - if youre an XMen fan or a Byrne fan it oughtta be worth a try.

 

It was one of my favorite comics at the time though I will admit admit Byrne was taking his time moving the story along. I was mighty pissed the series was unwarrently sacked by Quesada during a yet another streamline of the X-titles. The cutting of the line was needed, though a slew of additional new X-titles made up the slack, but the series was pretty much self contained and shouldn't have been grouped in with the rest of the X-craap.

 

Jim

[Zonker]

It's really cool that most of the TwoMorrows' Comic Book Artist interviews are on-line.

 

CBA: You went over to DC from Warren?

 

Dave: Yeah. I started doing background inking, first for Tony DeZuniga (who was doing a lot of House of Mystery and stuff like that). They weren't running a stable yet, at that point. He was okay to work for, but his wife, Mary, was something else. She looked at my stuff and said, "Ehhh! Ten years, maybe, you might make it." I stayed long enough to work on five or six issues, but Murphy Anderson needed a background inker for the work he was doing on Curt Swan's Superman and Bob Brown's Superboy. He also got the "John Carter of Mars" strip, which I desperately wanted to help out with (being a John Carter fan all of my life) but Murphy wouldn't let me touch that. He'd say, "This is mine! Go away!" I worked for Murphy for about a year in a downtown Manhattan studio. It was great and I learned a lot, but the only trouble was that we did more bullsh*tting than working! So it turned out to be not that profitable and he finally closed down the studio.

 

While I was working for Murphy, the "Legion of Super-Heroes" strip became available. Murray Boltinoff, the editor, got Murphy to agree to ink it. Murray figured that Murphy would be responsible for the quality of the book and fix anything that I did wrong. Because Murphy was an old-time professional and I was the newcomer, Murray listed Murphy's name first on the credits, so everybody thinks that Murphy penciled those first three or four strips, when actually I did. It was the other way around: I penciled and he inked. But Murray thought that Murphy would be offended to be listed second, though he wouldn't have.

 

By the fourth "Legion" strip I did, Murphy was embroiled in "John Carter" and Superman, and he just couldn't help anymore. So he said, "You're on your own!" There was a lot of snowpaque on that art from correcting mistakes, but I got through it. It looked pretty slick and people said that it wasn't bad, so after that it was my book. Fan reaction was pretty good, because I was young and enthusiastic—and obviously the first one in a long time who much cared what was being done with The Legion—I even badgered Murray into allowing me to introduce new costumes, but he was timid about that. That was my best early work.

 

CBA: Around the same time were you doing some inking for Marvel? The Avengers come to mind....

 

Dave: I didn't start working for Marvel full-time until I had my little go-around with Murray and Carmine Infantino. DC wasn't returning artwork at that point, and Marvel was, but I asked for the double-page spread of the wedding of Bouncing Boy and Duo Damsel to be returned. I just wanted it for a souvenir, and Murray had said, "I don't see why not," and he apparently had it set aside to give to me. But Carmine came in the day I came by to pick it up and he said, "What's this?" Murray told him, and Carmine said, "You can't give this back to him. We don't do that." It was the only artwork that I had asked for back and I said, "Gee, guys, can't you bend the rules? It's all I'm asking for." He said, "Nope, can't do it." I said, "All right. See ya." (Just prior to this incident, I had gotten the Captain Marvel Jr. job from Julie Schwartz.) I then went over to Marvel and got some work, and asked Julie and Roy Thomas, "Do you guys mind if I keep doing Captain Marvel Jr.? Because I really tried hard to get that." Both of them said fine, but Carmine said, "No, he can't." So I made a clean cut with DC.

 

 

CBA: Mike Friedrich told me a story that back in 1972 you had an idea for an international team book that eventually turned into the new X-Men. Is that true?

 

Dave: It wasn't my idea. Roy brought up the idea that he wanted to do a new X-Men book but he was talking about approaching it as "Mutant Blackhawks." That was Roy's suggestion when he took us to a fancy restaurant, telling us to order whatever we wanted—he had a hamburger. That was Roy's proposal: He wanted them international and to operate out of a secret base. Part of the rationale, as I understand it, was that Marvel was looking for foreign markets. And then, ultimately, we picked a bunch of nationalities whose countries weren't liable to buy the book! It never wound up fitting that proposal anyway.

 

CBA: After that, how long did you work on the proposal?

 

Dave: I had gone home and started designing some characters, but for some reason, there was a pause in the development, and they just hung fire for months. When it came back, Mike Friedrich wasn't involved any more but Len Wein was. I had drawn up a number of characters: The original black female in the group was to have been called The Black Cat. She had Storm's costume but without the cape, and a cat-like haircut with tufts for ears. Her power was that she could turn into a humanoid cat or a tabby. She wore a collar with a bell on it. When we came back to the project, after the hiatus, all of a sudden all of these other female cat characters had sprung up—Tigra, The Cat, Pantha—so I figured that we'd better overhaul this one! She wound up getting white hair, the cape, and becoming Storm.

 

CBA: Where did Nightcrawler come from?

 

Dave: When I was still a fan and in the Navy, my first wife and I were living on Guam in a house in the boonies (which was infested with roaches and rats). There was a terrible storm going on overhead, we had no lights, it was noisy and loud and raining like hell with thunder and lightning. To keep ourselves occupied and keeping ourselves from being scared to death, we sat around making up characters. We made up this duo, a guy I called the Intruder (a cross between the Punisher and Batman, with a chrome skull and black jumpsuit) and his demon sidekick, Nightcrawler. The original concept was a lot different in that Nightcrawler would howl at the moon, run up the sides of buildings and do all kinds of weird sh*t. He really was a demon who had screwed up on a mission from hell and, rather than go back and face punishment, he hung around up here with this do-gooder. So he was considerably overhauled when he wound up in the X-Men.

 

CBA: What input did you have with Colossus?

 

Dave: I drew him up and brought him in, saying, "Here's Colossus, our muscle guy." Len came up with the civilian name and origin. So it was my visual. Storm was pretty much the same, though when I wanted to put the white hair on her, everybody said that she'd wind up looking like somebody's grandmother. I said, "Trust me."

 

CBA: Was Thunderbird your character?

 

Dave: Yes. When I brought in the first design, everybody said, "He looks like an Air Force pilot!" I had this strange helmet on him that was an Indian design but nobody liked it, so I went back and re-did it.

 

CBA: Were you excited about working on the New X-Men?

 

Dave: Yeah, because it was a potentially hot series and I looked forward to the opportunity to do lots of neat stuff. I worked closely with Len to start but it didn't stay that way too long. He was in the process of becoming editor-in-chief at that point, and had gotten too busy to stay on. He plotted the next issue of Giant-Size X-Men (which became X-Men #94 and 95), but Chris Claremont came on and stayed as writer for 18-odd years. I knew from the start that I wasn't going to ink it myself but I did ink the first issue because, well, I wanted to.

 

 

[OldGuy]

how long was teh gap between XMen 93 and 94? It was about a year right?

 

Four months...

 

X-Men #93 April 1975

X-Men #94 August 1975

 

Actually it could be argued that there wasn't really a break. X-Men was bi-monthly at the time. Giant-Size X-Men was coverdated May 1975 followed by #94 three months later. GS X-Men could be considered the bi-monthly issue between 93/94...

 

I honestly thought the break was much longer...

 

Jim

 

I have some more timeline info on my site as well, FWIW. http://www.cnsp.com/brrempel/

[Weird]

What was the deal with Timberwolf? Anoybody know was he before or after Wolverine and was he an all Cockrum creation? I remember running into him on the cover of Superboy 197 a couple of years ago and being like, "Wolverine?" Cockrum drew he and Wolverine so similarly...

[awe4one]

Timberwolf was introduced well before Wolverine...

 

Jim