Strange Daze on EBay

[blowout]

I've never read ASM 50 and 51, but I understand the dynamic is similar. Can anyone that knows these 2 issues well explain why 50 is more desired than 51 (at least as I understand it?) I'm left with the impression from what I do know... that the simple cover appearance on 50 may change the weight the inner cameo carries... explain please?

 

The dynamic is totally different for ASM 50 & 51.

ASM #50 is the book the collectors want and is the most valuable of the two. The reason for this is simple, it is the first appearance of the Kingpin. And no, it isn't a cameo, the Kingpin appears on several pages in the book and plays an integral part in the story.

ASM #51 is the first cover appearance of the Kingpin (he is not on the cover of #50) but it is the second appearance of the character and is valued accordingly.

 

A more closely related example to Wolverines appearances in Hulk #180 & #181 are those of Venom in ASM #299 & #300. In #299 Venom appears in the last panel, a cameo app. His first full appearance is widely regarded as ASM #300 in which he plays an integral part in the story.

[diablo508]

Look at Ultimate Spider-Man #33...has Modern fans going nuts for this issue thinking of a repeat of ASM #252 or ASM #300...and neither happens! P. Parker doesn't have the "new" costume until the last page of USM #35 and you don't really see "Venom" until the last pages of #36...but since Venom is on the Cover of Ultimate Spider-Man #33...that continues to be the high seller...I can't figure it out....(but I'll hoard a few issues just for g.p.)

 

 

 

 

[hogations]

Maybe a better example to run parallel than ASM 50 & 51 is ASM 42 & 43 which is the first time we see Mary Jane Watson. In #42 there is only a cameo in the last panel (although a very memorable one) whereas she appears in many panels in #43 which would techically be her first full appearance.

 

My memory is a little fuzzy on Hulk #180, but I believe Wolverine appears 'off-camera' in different parts of the book and then appears in full costume on the last page?

[delekkerste]

Maybe a better example to run parallel than ASM 50 & 51 is ASM 42 & 43...My memory is a little fuzzy on Hulk #180, but I believe Wolverine appears 'off-camera' in different parts of the book and then appears in full costume on the last page?

 

OK, I've gotten to the bottom of all of this.

 

ASM #50: The Kingpin appears in 7 panels in the book (face is shown multiple times) spread out through 3 different places in the story, plays a key part in the book's storyline, affects the story in panels where he does not directly appear (such as panels featuring Frederic Foswell only, but the Kingpin is talking to him or Foswell is carrying out the Kingpin's orders). ASM #51 is his first cover, but ASM #50 is clearly his first full appearance and not even close to a cameo. So, the ASM #50-51 analogy clearly does not apply to Hulk #180-181.

 

ASM #42: Mary Jane's full face appears in the last panel of #42, which is a big deal given that she was mentioned way back in issue #15 and had cameo appearances where her face wasn't shown in #25 and #38, so actually revealing her face had a huge build-up to it. This is different from Hulk #180-181, as I shall show below.

 

Hulk #180: OK, I have an unslabbed #180 and was determined to get to the bottom of this argument. The first mention of "Weapon X" is made in ONE panel in this book (so, unlike ASM #42, there was no 2+ year build-up to revealing the face of this mystery character, so throw that analogy out the window). Wolverine appears ONLY in the last panel of the book, though he has a dialogue bubble in the previous panel. He does NOT appear in the shadows or is even addressed by anyone earlier in the book. If this is not the very definition of a cameo appearance, I don't know what is. Finito, end of story - it's a cameo. HOWEVER, it is also the first appearance of Wolverine's complete face & costume, with 3 word bubbles of dialogue to boot, so to say this book has little/no importance is also not credible.

 

So, both sides are going to have to give a little on this argument. Yes, it's a cameo, but yes, it's also the first face/costume/dialogue of Wolverine. How should #180 be valued relative to #181 given these facts? That's a hot potato I'm not going to touch!

 

Gene

[joe_collector]

Why not toss Warlock into the mix; now that's a hot potatoe and many dealers have argued with Bob about Thor 165 being his first full appearance, which I tend to agree with.

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks for clearing that up Lee... I never read the 2 books but several people over the past year brought those 2 issues up to me saying the dynamic was very similar and I needed to find out why the values were reversed... sounds like 50 was a bit more than was represented to me.

 

I think the ASM 299 and 300 comparison was brought up in the original thread by Sully and CI pointed out the McFarlane art angle.

 

[BronzeBruce13]

The MJ cameos were brought up before as well, but that situation is far too unique to really compare as well IMO... several cameos in several different ways as I understand it.

 

No .. he's only visible once, speaks 3X (3 voice bubbles anyway) in 2 different panels... but there was a little more than the one voice bubble by the "nameless captain". I believe there was a narrative box or 2 that were referring to the weapon X program even though they did not say "weapon X" in them. To me if you were reading the issue you were aware they were building up to something. Point being when we got to the last page I was expecting Weapon X.

 

In short, I think the word "cameo" is lacking and minimizing in this instance. The term is used to describe too much IMO.

[BronzeBruce13]

Hey Gene,

 

I appreciate the research and the fact that you opened the book. Did you read it or just scan it for the direct Weapon X references? I hope you took the time to read it and not just analyze its content. Whether or not you experienced the anticipation as I did, is what I want to know too.

 

Part of my point is that there was a build up and mention of the "secret program developed to protect Canada" and the instrument of that program Weapon X. It was shown/referenced in the story more than the one voice bubble shouting Weapon X on page 3. I took the whole bottom half of page 3 to be a rather integral part of the Weapon X build up... not just the direct reference in the voice bubble... "..I'm afraid we have no choice but to mobilize Weapon X!" You may have just considered the one phrase, but in terms of the story I felt the set up of something significant was happening and going to happen. I'm thinking... "what is this secret program that was developed specifically to deal with the Hulk and others of his kind and what the hell is the main weapon.. Weapon X?" This page alone somehow raises the level of appearance to me because we were aware of something important happening early on.

 

On the last page.. I feel it also is a bit more than what I take the minimizing "cameo" term for. 2/3rds of the last page is about Wolverine... (4) Narrative Boxes and (3) Voice Bubbles. It's also a rather dramatic and decent size panel appearance which rests over the big "WOLVERINE" text which gave it an even bigger visual impact to me.

 

I've thought about how I could best get across my feelings on the term "cameo" and why I feel it is minimizing in this case and a lacking term in general when used to describe all these different "Limited Appearances". Regardless of the definition, I think the term needs more so it does not "over" or "under" emphasize the real impact of any particular "Limited Appearance".

 

Here's an off the wall suggestion...why not a cameo rating system to give a more accurate feel for the level of the cameo? Of course, it will be subjective like grading and I guess I can't see anyone really implementing it... BUT its the beginnings of an idea. Maybe a 1-10 scale and a few other letters to describe certain characteristics.

 

For instance:

 

Hulk 180 and Wolverine...... Cameo 7-F,P................. ("F" indicating first app. cameo, "P" indicating involved in the plot)

ASM 50 and Kingpin............. Cameo 10-F,P,MA....... (same as above but ad "MA" for multiple appearances")

PMIF 78 and Sabretooth...... Cameo 1-NV................. ("NV" for Not Visible)

 

and so on...

 

Now consider for one moment.... PMIF 78 and Hulk 180... both have a Cameo Appearance. The word cameo is used to describe both of them... and yes I know they have follow-up comments in the guide (1st App Wolverine) and (hidden under cloak). BUT doesn't "cameo" seem a bit lacking when used to describe Hulk 180 and ASM 50 by comparison? Does the term really get across what it needs to? Do most people just refer to the appearances with the terms Cameo and forget the qualifiers?

 

Something to think about.

 

For fun why don't we all take 5 to 10 cameo appearances and rate them... with some sense of seriousness

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Good point about Warlock... there's another situation in which more detail is needed

[joe_collector]

Okay, just for fun, open up X-Men 120 and 121.

 

X-Men 121 is known as the first full appearance of Alpha Flight, yet X-Men 120, where the whole story revolves around them, and each are seen, named and some even lay a beating down on the X-Men, is only a CAMEO appearance.

 

This is far and away a more significant appearance than seeing Wolvie in the last panel and having some bizarre "hush hush" Secret Canuck Project tone to the story. Heck, the team is named and shown on Page 2 I believe, and although there is some secrecy regarding their costumes (Byrne wanted a big teaser for 121), I'm sure Wolvie would agree that Sasquatch made an "impression" on him.

 

If yer gonna take issue with Hulk 180, then do so for comics that are far, far, far, far, far, far, more deserving of the credit like X-Men 120.

[delekkerste]

I appreciate the research and the fact that you opened the book. Did you read it or just scan it for the direct Weapon X references?

 

I actually acquired it very recently and read it at that point, so this time I just scanned for references. You knew something was coming with the Weapon X reference, but given that it was only mentioned early on and then the book turned into Hulk vs. Wendigo without any further references to Weapon X in the meat of the book, you didn't know whether Weapon X was coming in this issue or whether they just hinted at the next storyline to come. In my mind, it was more of a "small hint" and not an "exciting build-up".

 

 

On the last page.. I feel it also is a bit more than what I take the minimizing "cameo" term for. 2/3rds of the last page is about Wolverine... (4) Narrative Boxes and (3) Voice Bubbles.

 

I think really only the 1/3 page panel with his full face/costume is really relevant...even his voice bubble in the previous panel shows an image of Hulk & Wendigo. And, if ASM #134 is a Punisher cameo, with a full (or close to it, my copy is slabbed and I can't refer to it) page splash of the Punisher on the last page, it's hard to justify calling Hulk #180 as anything but a Wolverine cameo. I agree with you that it deserves a good amount of respect for actually showing the full face & costume, but it is definitely a "cameo" IMO.

 

 

BUT doesn't "cameo" seem a bit lacking when used to describe Hulk 180 and ASM 50 by comparison?

 

I think this is where your argument goes awry - whoever told you that ASM 50 is a Kingpin cameo is simply wrong. Neither Overstreet nor CGC call ASM 50 anything but the Kingpin's unqualified 1st full appearance, and, as I described above, that is entirely justified given his huge role (no pun intended!) in the book.

 

I guess my bottom line is that, in light of the evidence, Hulk 180 is more important a book than some people think and less important than what other people think!

 

- Diplomatic Gene

[BronzeBruce13]

Again, great point. Another example where the lame term minimizes the appearance and is accepted as such (for the most part). I accepted it too until you brought it up because I simply don't recall the issue and I think Hulk 180 is even less remembered. Out of site... out of mind... "it must only be a lame cameo". That is the injustice created from the use of the term "as is".

 

Clearly cameo is certainly not accurate with X-men 120 either. Its not just hulk 180 that I have issue with the term. I hate the term in general and think it does not define these appearances accurately... certainly not in the way people seem to take the term for.

 

Using my proposed scale... rate X-men 120.

I don't have a raw copy anymore and its been awhile since I read it.

 

would this be right in your mind?

Cameo-10 F,P,MA,C (add "C" for cover)

 

Does this make any sense to you? I think that (based on your description) X-men 120 is a much higher rated cameo (10).. and actually I might take issue with the fact that it is called a cameo now. Maybe it should be the 1st app. (values seem to indicate it is basically considered an equal last time I checked) and maybe 121 should be the 2nd app?

 

In a way you are illustrating my point... the term is basically accepted when it is used to describe an issue. It sure as hell seems to have minimized X-Men 120 as well. As we see different levels of these "Limited Appearances" the scale may have to be adjusted. With this example, I'd probably now downgrade Hulk 180 to a Cameo-6 and maybe ASM 50 to a Cameo-8/9 (but I have not read it). That is unless 120 is revised and becomes the first app. in this line of thinking... and 121 becomes 2nd full app. I never said Hulk 180 was the only issue suffering from the "cameo minimizing affliction"... just one that I felt was much more important than the term indicated and one I feel compelled to defend. It's not my job to defend them all, although it may have illustrated my point better if I used other example in earlier arguments on the topic.

 

I have accepted and acknowledged several good points (examples) of yours on this thread (and others) and allowed them to influence my open mind because I want the point understood and the issue to be hashed out fairly. I'm not going through this all with a closed mind trying to win an argument. Do you understand now, and/or give any credit to the argument I've raised several times now that Hulk 180 is a more significant Wolverine appearance than what most people understand it to be, and take the insufficient term cameo to mean? Also, as the story it is not fresh in peoples minds (like many issues)... don't many just accept the term, forget the content and that a level of misperception is created?

 

If I have not made my point clearly after this post and no one gets this... then perhaps I was dropped down several flights of stairs as an infant and I'm way off and don't know it

[BronzeBruce13]

Agree to disagree... I had a bigger sense of build up when I first read it (and still). Maybe this is the adult Gene talking now and it may not be easy to read it with an open mind and with the same wonder you did when you first read it, especially since you may have had your mind made up? Hard to say. To be fair... maybe I still expeience it with a younger persective?

 

If you read my previous post you'll see I address the point about comparing other cameos. I think other issues as well don't receive a clear picture of the appearance. Do you think the "cameo rating system" would help define each appearance better and would basically solve the problem I have with its use?

 

as for ASM 50... I said I had not read it but it was referenced to me as being similar (totally off it turns out). I wanted more info on it. It was not a big part of my argument. I see in the guide now its his 1st app.... I shoulda' checked. Clearly it does not qualify as an issue to give an Cameo Rating to. It does sound somewhat similar in content to X-Men 120 though.

[joe_collector]

>>Do you understand now, and/or give any credit to the argument I've raised several times now that Hulk 180 is a more significant Wolverine appearance than what most people understand it to be, and take the insufficient term cameo to mean?

 

Not really, as on my list of "more than cameo" cameo's, Hulk 180 rates pretty low on the list, with ASM 134, 299 and X-Men 282. Last-panel cameos are common, and almost a staple of comics, while there are other issues (like X-Men 120) that are in another league altogether.

 

Until those are moved for full appearances by the "powers that be", why would I think Hulk 180 deserves any better treatment?

[g-man]

it's all about the $. (not directed at anyone)

[joe_collector]

Of course it is, but I'm referring to the process of getting OS to switch their thought processes and change the notation. I can't see books like X-Men 120 staying cameos, while an inconsequential last-panel/no cover in Hulk 180 will become Wolvie's first app. and allow Bruce to cash in his chips.

[g-man]

well i highly doubt it will change......but get ready for the reply, hope the server can take it.... (only kidding BB, take it easy).....

[BronzeBruce13]

C'mon guys... I put sincere effort into how I feel about the issue, had an open mind to challenging ideas, remained respectful throughout and all's I get in return is a cheap shot which basically insinuates that my opinion is NOT how I really feel and is a false front to keep the value high on my giant stock of 180's... that's lame. For the record, I believe everything I posted here and am offended that my integrity is questioned.

 

Not that it matters, nor will either of you believe me since you think my posts to be false... but I have sold off all but (1) copy I don't intend to keep. I have (2) keepers that will not go anywhere. So your pathetic, mean-spirited premise is false anyway. I never needed anyone's help selling a 180 to anyone... and please consider that you may be over-valuing the impact that your opposing opinion has on the market... no one really cares much about what's said here in any deal I've been involved with that I can recall.

 

If you can't tell I have passion for comics and that my motivation in regards to buying and selling is to improve my collection and obtain books that mean something to me... then expletive you both quite frankly.

 

Please continue your cheap shots without me... I'm done.

 

[joe_collector]

Bruce, no need to get huffy, and many of us are wondering WHY you care? If you're a comic book champion of "actual" first appearances, then forward the cause of far-more deserving comics like X-Men 120, where the characters are on the cover and featured extensively throughout the comic.

 

If not, then don't expect everyone to share your fervor for a last-panel cameo of a comic with Hulk and Wendigo duking it out on the front cover, espeically in light of a near-perfect (as per established "1st app. factors" like cover, story importance, battle scenes, etc.) appearance in Hulk 181.

 

If you feel an affinity for Hulk 180, then fine. If you feel that the issue is his first full appearance, then I'll have to back Overstreet and CGC and heartily disagree. If that hurts your feeling, then that's just too bad.

[drbanner]

a cheap shot which basically insinuates that my opinion is NOT how I really feel and is a false front to keep the value high on my giant stock of 180's.

 

C'mon Bruce, don't let CI get to you...we all know by now this is CI's...ooops, I mean Joe_Collector's MO - insult people, spread doom and gloom, criticize everyone else's actions as being singularily financially motivated, basically state that other's opinions are worthless, call people names, hide behind numerous shill posting accounts ("I've got 2200+ post under my belt as CI and I don't hide from anyone, anywhere.") and so forth. And the sad part is, you were one of the few on this board to defend his antics and this is what you get in return...sad.

 

As for the importance of Hulk 180, I would think the market for this book speaks for itself...it's the 1st appearance of Wolverine, by any definition!