Will CGC Grade this card as a misprint? 1 1

[Lyle Freeland]

Just now, Call The Cops said:

Because you're doing the same thing.

Not really. Cards that are clearly labeled NFC are not sold with the intent to scam anyone. I am not really interested in arguing with people about it though. Some people like it and some don't. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

10 minutes ago, Lyle Freeland said:

Ohhh that makes sense. Making NFCs is not like trimming. You are not restoring anything to get a higher grade. The card companies give uncut sheets out as prizes or they find their way into the wild. In particular card games like magic the gathering the NFC cards appeal to players because its a unique version that is harder to come by. Nobody really tries to pass them off as factory cut cards because it is widely known what sheets are publicly available and what sheets are not. 

The problem with this statement is what politicians would call plausible deniability.  

First you state that "Nobody really tries to pass them off.." well just because your intentions may be genuine do not mean other are the same. Once these cards are out there .. well you get the idea. 

Next you say , " it is widely known " that is a blanket statement.  It may be known to you , but I am sure if you started asking that information is not a widespread as you think. 

Ultimately the issue is if you are producing these NFC cards, whether you intend to scam or not , you still created these and some of that blame does fall on you. 

[Buzzetta]

Just now, Lyle Freeland said:

Not really. Cards that are clearly labeled NFC are not sold with the intent to scam anyone. I am not really interested in arguing with people about it though. Some people like it and some don't. 

How come they are not treated as sports cards though?  Why the grading standard change / shift?

I was under the impression that cards cut from a factory sheet were treated as the equivalent of 'restored'.

[Lyle Freeland]

5 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

How come they are not treated as sports cards though?  Why the grading standard change / shift?

I was under the impression that cards cut from a factory sheet were treated as the equivalent of 'restored'.

I am kind of lost on what you are asking. I feel like we are reading two separate sheets of music. I don't deal with any sports cards or comics. I collect misprints for Magic the Gathering and Pokémon. I am primarily a player so I like unique cards for my decks and collection. I can understand how trimming and restoring cards/comics to get a better grade is bad but in my mind its a weird thing to compare it to NFC cards. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Lyle Freeland

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

1 minute ago, Buzzetta said:

How come they are not treated as sports cards though?  Why the grading standard change / shift?

I was under the impression that cards cut from a factory sheet were treated as the equivalent of 'restored'.

Some of these NFC originally were allowed to be graded as they were only obtained through uncut sheets. Once some of the grading companies allowed the practice.. well they opened up the flood gates. I do understand some cards being allowed. (Those only obtained through uncut sheets) although wish they would just grade the sheets. That said they shouldn't have just said any sheet cut into cards is acceptable.  It leaves too much room for issues. Especially now that micro trimming has evolved. 

[Buzzetta]

8 minutes ago, Lyle Freeland said:

I'm sure at some point in time someone has tried to scam with them. I don't think it happens nearly as often as people think though. Its just like any other collectible. Once there is more money involved you will have people trying to create forgeries. 

How prevalent are forgeries though and at what tier of card?  

[Buzzetta]

2 minutes ago, Lyle Freeland said:

I am kind of lost on what you are asking. I feel like we are reading two separate sheets of music. I don't deal with any sports cards or comics. I collect misprints for Magic the Gathering and Pokémon. I am primarily a player so I like unique cards for my decks and collection. I can understand how trimming and restoring cards/comics to get a better grade is bad but in my mind its a weird thing to compare it to NFC cards. 

Because I would have thought that the grading companies have universal standards for a card that they grade regardless of genre.  If you are holding a Jeter SP Foil in a 9 of ten, it should have the same or similar characteristics as far as surface, centering and everything else (except corners) if the same company is grading a Pokemon card.

[Lyle Freeland]

6 minutes ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

The problem with this statement is what politicians would call plausible deniability.  

First you state that "Nobody really tries to pass them off.." well just because your intentions may be genuine do not mean other are the same. Once these cards are out there .. well you get the idea. 

Next you say , " it is widely known " that is a blanket statement.  It may be known to you , but I am sure if you started asking that information is not a widespread as you think. 

Ultimately the issue is if you are producing these NFC cards, whether you intend to scam or not , you still created these and some of that blame does fall on you. 

Yes I have heard these arguments many times over. Its honestly a conversation that goes in circles. What I do is not illegal and there are more than a few other players who enjoy the cards just as much as I do. Its one of those things where we will have to just agree to disagree. I could sit here and argue it all day but in the end you probably wont be that interested in my point of view on it. 

[Lyle Freeland]

2 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

How prevalent are forgeries though and at what tier of card?  

Typically wotc only gives out foil sheets of more modern era sets so when you look for NFCs the cards being foil is a big giveaway. There are also non foils sheets that are known from older eras. Magic is all over the place and most of it is just knowledge based on what sheets exist in the wild and which ones do not. 

[Jeffro.]

4 minutes ago, Lyle Freeland said:

9 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

How come they are not treated as sports cards though?  Why the grading standard change / shift?

I was under the impression that cards cut from a factory sheet were treated as the equivalent of 'restored'.

I am kind of lost on what you are asking. I feel like we are reading two separate sheets of music. I don't deal with any sports cards or comics. I collect misprints for Magic the Gathering and Pokémon. I am primarily a player so I like unique cards for my decks and collection. I can understand how trimming and restoring cards/comics to get a better grade is bad but in my mind its a weird thing to compare it to NFC cards. 

Not really because to us comic guys, it's a little too close for comfort to trimming. Also, cutting cards from sheets in the sports card hobby is a bad thing too, or at least they were back when I was into sports cards. Cards are cards. The idea that it's okay to cut cards from sheets in MtG but not okay for Pokemon is an odd concept for me. I guess it's a good thing I have no plans to collect pokemon cards

[Buzzetta]

2 minutes ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Some of these NFC originally were allowed to be graded as they were only obtained through uncut sheets. Once some of the grading companies allowed the practice.. well they opened up the flood gates. I do understand some cards being allowed. (Those only obtained through uncut sheets) although wish they would just grade the sheets. That said they shouldn't have just said any sheet cut into cards is acceptable.  It leaves too much room for issues. Especially now that micro trimming has evolved. 

I can't see them being cut the right way though.  The factory cuts have always been different than the non factory cuts.  I think that is how they detected it on the Mastro Wagner card. 

[Lyle Freeland]

3 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Because I would have thought that the grading companies have universal standards for a card that they grade regardless of genre.  If you are holding a Jeter SP Foil in a 9 of ten, it should have the same or similar characteristics as far as surface, centering and everything else (except corners) if the same company is grading a Pokemon card.

Its strange. like BGS will grade any NFC card and they could care less. PSA wont grade them though because of the trimming/alterations. CGC has obviously made their stance known on the issue and has sort of a middle ground. 

[Buzzetta]

2 minutes ago, Jeffro. said:

Not really because to us comic guys, it's a little too close for comfort to trimming. Also, cutting cards from sheets in the sports card hobby is a bad thing too, or at least they were back when I was into sports cards. Cards are cards. The idea that it's okay to cut cards from sheets in MtG but not okay for Pokemon is an odd concept for me. I guess it's a good thing I have no plans to collect pokemon cards

Yeah that's what I was saying.   I would think that a particular grading company has universal standards across all genres of cards that they grade.  It more confusing to me that this is allowed with Pokemon stuff and not another gaming card and as you and I have both stated, definitely not with a sports card. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Buzzetta

[Buzzetta]

1 minute ago, Lyle Freeland said:

Its strange. like BGS will grade any NFC card and they could care less. PSA wont grade them though because of the trimming/alterations. CGC has obviously made their stance known on the issue and has sort of a middle ground. 

Interesting. 

So here is the thing.  Obviously CGC's opening of card grading has attracted people the site.  However, given that CGC is taking a middle ground stance, how does that impact their overall perception and reputation in card grading across the hobby?   I ask because sometimes that holder is worth a lot more coming from one company over another.

[Lyle Freeland]

1 minute ago, Jeffro. said:

Not really because to us comic guys, it's a little too close for comfort to trimming. Also, cutting cards from sheets in the sports card hobby is a bad thing too, or at least they were back when I was into sports cards. Cards are cards. The idea that it's okay to cut cards from sheets in MtG but not okay for Pokemon is an odd concept for me. I guess it's a good thing I have no plans to collect pokemon cards

Magic is a game that you have a heavier player base rather than people who just collect. Pokémon has a much larger collector base and less people actually play the game. Pokémon also has a younger crowd so the average age is lower than magic. I am still not completely sure why the magic community is so accepting of NFCs but the Pokémon community is not but the above reasons are my best guess.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

3 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

I can't see them being cut the right way though.  The factory cuts have always been different than the non factory cuts.  I think that is how they detected it on the Mastro Wagner card. 

That was an example I was going to use. Yes currently they are easily determined, at grading.  That said the issue is with cards that someone thinks is factory that is not and doesn't have the ability to tell the difference, or sends it in only to have it declined.  Like a lot of restored/ trimmed books that the buyers had no idea. 

Your Dupcak reference was spot on. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

12 minutes ago, Lyle Freeland said:

Yes I have heard these arguments many times over. Its honestly a conversation that goes in circles. What I do is not illegal and there are more than a few other players who enjoy the cards just as much as I do. Its one of those things where we will have to just agree to disagree. I could sit here and argue it all day but in the end you probably wont be that interested in my point of view on it. 

I do understand both sides. 

Ginsu makes a knife.  If someone uses it to commit a crime you can not hold them liable.  

All I was stating is that just because you make these with wholesome intentions , do not think that there are those who will use these with nefarious intentions.   This is why some of the grading companies will not touch them. 

[Lyle Freeland]

1 minute ago, Buzzetta said:

Interesting. 

So here is the thing.  Obviously CGC's opening of card grading has attracted people the site.  However, given that CGC is taking a middle ground stance, how does that impact their overall perception and reputation in card grading across the hobby?   I ask because sometimes that holder is worth a lot more coming from one company over another.

I personally love CGC and I plan to have all my misprints that I hold near and dear to me graded by them. Trading cards in CGC holders are not worth as much now but I think that down the line they will be. CGC has certainly got attention in the misprints community because they cater to us a lot more than BGS and PSA. The problem with NFCs and misprints is there are grey areas.

 

For example. I have a card that is a test print for MTG but also came from a sheet that has an alignment error. An alignment error is when the front of the card is miscut and the back is centered or vice versa. This alignment error is basically an iron clad characteristic of a card that is factory cut and this fact is well known. My particular card happened to be NFC cut from what's called a make-ready sheet. Its a sheet that they use to test printing. So we get into a grey area. The card is technically misprinted but its also an NFC card. This is just one example but you get the idea. 

[Lyle Freeland]

6 minutes ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

I do understand both sides. 

Ginsu makes a knife.  If someone uses it to commit a crime you can not hold them liable.  

All I was stating is that just because you make these with wholesome intentions , do not think that there are those who will use these with nefarious intentions.   This is why some of the grading companies will not touch them. 

I understand. I know that people could potentially scam others. There are serious repercussions for doing this though. If anyone was caught trying to pass off an NFC card as factory they would probably be banned from most of the misprint groups on Facebook. Its not something I condone and I have always made that clear to customers if they ask me about things related to the topic. Customers who want their sheet cut into singles. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Lyle Freeland

[Buzzetta]

6 minutes ago, Lyle Freeland said:

I personally love CGC and I plan to have all my misprints that I hold near and dear to me graded by them. Trading cards in CGC holders are not worth as much now but I think that down the line they will be. CGC has certainly got attention in the misprints community because they cater to us a lot more than BGS and PSA. The problem with NFCs and misprints is there are grey areas.

 

For example. I have a card that is a test print for MTG but also came from a sheet that has an alignment error. An alignment error is when the front of the card is miscut and the back is centered or vice versa. This alignment error is basically an iron clad characteristic of a card that is factory cut and this fact is well known. My particular card happened to be NFC cut from what's called a make-ready sheet. Its a sheet that they use to test printing. So we get into a grey area. The card is technically misprinted but its also an NFC card. This is just one example but you get the idea. 

Well, welcome to the boards.  Looking forward to learning more.