Who sold all of that Silver Age Original Artwork from Marvel? 3 3

[KCOComics]

4 minutes ago, Math Teacher said:

I also think that the reason he was getting paid more was because of his prodigious output. It's amazing how many pages he could draw in a month's time.

He had two monthly books that he worked on until he left, Fantastic Four and Thor. He drew the first eight issues of Avengers, the first seven issues of Ant-Man, the first eleven issues of X-Men, the first five issues of the Human Torch in Strange Tales, and the first seven issues of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos. He also contributed numerous covers to these series, as well as the Iron Man issues of Tales of Suspense. He was also doing layouts for other artists during this time.

If Jack Kirby was the highest paid artist of the 1960s, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it was because he drew a tremendous number of pages each and every month.

And I should point out, I don't know for sure he was. I just can't imagine who could have been paid more given his output and contribution to early Marvel at that time. 

[kav]

57 minutes ago, Math Teacher said:

I also think that the reason he was getting paid more was because of his prodigious output. It's amazing how many pages he could draw in a month's time.

He had two monthly books that he worked on until he left, Fantastic Four and Thor. He drew the first eight issues of Avengers, the first seven issues of Ant-Man, the first eleven issues of X-Men, the first five issues of the Human Torch in Strange Tales, and the first seven issues of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos. He also contributed numerous covers to these series, as well as the Iron Man issues of Tales of Suspense. He was also doing layouts for other artists during this time.

If Jack Kirby was the highest paid artist of the 1960s, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it was because he drew a tremendous number of pages each and every month.

I have to claim an even more prodigigous output then kirby-2 penciled and inked pages per day.  while working full time.

Edited June 19, 2021 by kav

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

I clearly was talking about the one sided rules in place where owners take advantage of employees.  So no gotcha for you here. 

Yeah, that's the point. He took advantage of the way things were when it suited him and fought against the way things were when it didn't.

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, Math Teacher said:

I am not commenting about what you believe did or may have happened. You might want to read this book to back up your claims.

True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

 

Yes, I've read it. There is very little I haven't at this point...

Edited June 19, 2021 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, Math Teacher said:

I also think that the reason he was getting paid more was because of his prodigious output. It's amazing how many pages he could draw in a month's time.

He had two monthly books that he worked on until he left, Fantastic Four and Thor. He drew the first eight issues of Avengers, the first seven issues of Ant-Man, the first eleven issues of X-Men, the first five issues of the Human Torch in Strange Tales, and the first seven issues of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos. He also contributed numerous covers to these series, as well as the Iron Man issues of Tales of Suspense. He was also doing layouts for other artists during this time.

If Jack Kirby was the highest paid artist of the 1960s, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it was because he drew a tremendous number of pages each and every month.

Well... first of all.. Marvel wasn't a big deal in 1964 as far as sales. That's a misconception. 

The people who DID pick up those comics - LOVED them. And wrote to Marvel and created fanzines, and became fanboys (and girls).

But compared to the market as it was in 1964... Marvel still wasn't really competing with the big boys yet.

So the only reason Jack might have been the highest paid artist at the time would've been from the number of pages he was drawing each month.

Say, if you had an hourly wage employee and you paid them $10 an hour (with no overtime given) and worked them 10 hours a day, 7 days a week.

They'd make more than the guy at the other place, working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, making the same hourly wage.

[Aman619]

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

Well... first of all.. Marvel wasn't a big deal in 1964 as far as sales. That's a misconception. 

The people who DID pick up those comics - LOVED them. And wrote to Marvel and created fanzines, and became fanboys (and girls).

But compared to the market as it was in 1964... Marvel still wasn't really competing with the big boys yet.

So the only reason Jack might have been the highest paid artist at the time would've been from the number of pages he was drawing each month.

Say, if you had an hourly wage employee and you paid them $10 an hour (with no overtime given) and worked them 10 hours a day, 7 days a week.

They'd make more than the guy at the other place, working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, making the same hourly wage.

Just a small nit pick about Kirby’s output.  It’s always been described that he was able to create more pencilled pages than anybody a week, or day, because he was faster, NOT because he worked longer hours to accomplish it.  I don’t really know if that’s actually true.  Maybe he burned the midnight oil for extra dough.  But if someone’s natural skills enabled him to make more money than the other artists by virtue of his speed alone, he technically was higher paid PER DAY, if not per page as rates are commonly compared. Bottom line he made a lot more money. 

[VintageComics]

15 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Kirby held on, hoping Stan would do him right...

Kirby reminds me of that character that a lot of stories have where he's this good hearted workhorse wasn't too business savvy but put his heart and soul into whichever relationship he was dedicated to. The incident of when he stepped in to protect the Timely (or was it Marvel) offices from some goons who came with physical threats speaks volumes to me about the type of person he was. He asked for little and gave a lot and trusted in others to help him with his future.

15 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Stan got paid really well because he was on salary as Editor (and related to the publisher) and because he took credit for the writing. So he got paid for two jobs. Jack got paid really well because he worked 7 days a week, 10 hours a day, and drew about 3 pages a day for Marvel for almost a decade, not mention creating characters and comics that pulled them out of the financial mess Goodman had gotten them in.

Drawing comics 'The Marvel Way' seems to be as much a business arrangement to ensure Stan's income as it was a culture for creating. Not sure if that was Stan's intent but it certainly seems to be an arrangement a very smart business person would have in the modern corporate world.

8 hours ago, Aman619 said:

All his life in comics Goodman operated by the set of rules that existed.  They all did. Its really silly to point and curse them for not being Mother Teresa to the employees. It may suck, but we are animals in a darwinian struggle for survival/success.  Stones and glass houses.

100% true. It may have been 'inequitable' but it wasn't stealing. Unfortunately, some people just leave money on the table because of their own nature.

15 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

True. Just think if he'd have left when Ditko did. No Inhumans. No Galactus Trilogy. No Black Panther. No Warlock. 

The Marvel Universe might've died right there.

What a great What If? issue this would have made.

9 hours ago, mrc said:

9 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

They'd have been a footnote in the industry if not for Jack Kirby. They owed him more than what was a fair.

A real man would've recognized it and made it right.

This whole 'business is business' bunch of bull and 'he should've known' is in direct contrast to the way the people on this forum act when someone buys a comic collection for a song and makes a fortune on it - they all criticize him and point fingers and pretend their all holy... what is the difference? 

You rip off an old lady for an Action Comics #1 sale or you rip off the greatest creative force in the history of comics.... it's all the same thing to me. 

A man's word is a man's word. A friend's word is a friend's word. A handshake should mean something. What's right is right. Geneivat da'at!!!

I'm afraid you simply don't seem to have any idea how the real world works.......pure hyperbole.

Or, he understands how the 'real world' works but wishes it was different.

This is how the real world works:

15 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Well, Jack Kirby was very fast. Martin Goodman was upset that Jack Kirby was making so much money. He felt, "Kirby's turning out so much work, let's cut his rate." That's when Jack left Marvel and went over to DC.

This is how the corporate world works. It happened to me personally and it is one of the reasons I left my old career and became a comic dealer.

I worked in a pay by the job career and when I made 'too much money' they started cutting my pay even though it was my own ingenuity and skill that caused me to succeed.

Eff that. Up the irons and I left.

 

 

[VintageComics]

5 hours ago, Math Teacher said:

I also think that the reason he was getting paid more was because of his prodigious output. It's amazing how many pages he could draw in a month's time.

He had two monthly books that he worked on until he left, Fantastic Four and Thor. He drew the first eight issues of Avengers, the first seven issues of Ant-Man, the first eleven issues of X-Men, the first five issues of the Human Torch in Strange Tales, and the first seven issues of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos. He also contributed numerous covers to these series, as well as the Iron Man issues of Tales of Suspense. He was also doing layouts for other artists during this time.

If Jack Kirby was the highest paid artist of the 1960s, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it was because he drew a tremendous number of pages each and every month.

But if his pay was getting cut because he was putting so much out, that is not OK.

I was literally in the same position as Kirby with a parallel in my industry (and it wasn't just me they did it to, it was anybody who became good at what they did). I was employed at Mercedes Benz as a tech. They had a book of arranged prices they paid for each job.

After I started, I became one of the most efficient techs in the country. There were weeks when I was earning as much as 3 times the average pay (and regularly averaged at least double) of my peers. And I did it through hard work (long hours) and ingenuity (created my own methods and tools to increase efficiency) and was doing jobs in a fraction of the time they were paying (and with a high rate of quality control success as well, meaning very low comeback rate).

When corporate head office realized that techs were making so much money they started cutting what they paid for each job. In effect, our reward for being good at our jobs was to make less money.

How is that OK? It isn't. But there was nothing I could do. I had to take it or leave it.

If they indeed did that to Jack it was theft, pure and simple.

[kav]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

Just a small nit pick about Kirby’s output.  It’s always been described that he was able to create more pencilled pages than anybody a week, or day, because he was faster, NOT because he worked longer hours to accomplish it.  I don’t really know if that’s actually true.  Maybe he burned the midnight oil for extra dough.  But if someone’s natural skills enabled him to make more money than the other artists by virtue of his speed alone, he technically was higher paid PER DAY, if not per page as rates are commonly compared. Bottom line he made a lot more money. 

He's pretty fast.

 

[KCOComics]

1 hour ago, kav said:

He's pretty fast.

 

That's really cool! 

[kav]

3 minutes ago, KCOComics said:

That's really cool! 

[greggy]

10 hours ago, kav said:

I have to claim an even more prodigigous output then kirby-2 penciled and inked pages per day.  while working full time.

That's what she said. 

[greggy]

4 hours ago, kav said:

That's what she said. 

[Aman619]

20 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

You mean how Image Comics does it now? 

After falling apart in the 2000's, they changed to the model you describe above - the creators own their own work and make larger profits from it - they now rank as the strongest #3 comics publisher in North America that we've ever seen. They're profitable and their business model has proven to be a success.

They didn't go out of business. They thrived. 

Of course there wasn't 'one man' who 'took the risk' and deserved to be a billionaire in the story, so it might not appeal to today's generation, but Image certainly puts out some of the most creative American comics on the market today vs the same convoluted crud Marvel and DC have been making for years. 

Some of the top talent in the business work for them and love it.

The artists own their own work. My God, what a novel idea - Who'd have thought that would work?

Uh... the music industry? The book industry? Hollywood?

The answer to your point is obvious.  You can’t equate the 50s and 60s comics business with the current mindsets at work.  That Image has a great deal with talent just shows that the old model of plantation pay and no benefits just won’t fly anymore.  And DC and Marvel share to a greater extent than the old days, so smaller companies go even further to sign up top talent who now fully EXPECT to own their creations.  Kirby knew how it worked, and wanted his credit and profit share years AFTER the fact and didn’t get it.  Big difference , don’t you think? 

you are just echoing my earlier point that bosses never give up equity, or bonuses, or anything until and unless they feel they have to. 

[Prince Namor]

5 hours ago, Aman619 said:

The answer to your point is obvious.  You can’t equate the 50s and 60s comics business with the current mindsets at work.  That Image has a great deal with talent just shows that the old model of plantation pay and no benefits just won’t fly anymore.  

Hmm. I thought it showed that you don't have to screw over your creative people to be successful. 

Sort of how musicians started using agents in the 50's and 60's to make sure they weren't getting screwed over by record companies. Seems the idea just took longer to 'catch on' in comics.

5 hours ago, Aman619 said:

And DC and Marvel share to a greater extent than the old days, so smaller companies go even further to sign up top talent who now fully EXPECT to own their creations.  Kirby knew how it worked, and wanted his credit and profit share ...

Profit share? When did Kirby ask for profit share?

Here's what Jack asked for before he left (from 1965-1970): A CONTRACT, so that he could be secure in making a certain amount of money for his family. A shared credit for the work he did with Stan, so that people understood that HE was as important to the comics and ideas as Stan was.

That's IT.

He didn't ask for profit sharing. He just wanted to be seen as integral to the creation of new ideas and comics as Stan was - it WAS Jack's layouts he did for other artists and Jack's rough ideas they used for other comics... at the very least he'd done a tremendous amount of work to help build the Marvel Universe.

But Goodman and Lee saw it as an OWNERSHIP issue. They wanted to own what Jack had given them.

5 hours ago, Aman619 said:

 

years AFTER the fact and didn’t get it.  Big difference , don’t you think? 

No. They began this talk in 1965.

You must be thinking of how the INDUSTRY began to ask for artwork back, amidst stories of all of it that was being sold on the sly - and naturally Jack was interested to get his art back as well. Others were finally standing up to the publishers on the issue, why shouldn't he? Even then he was slow to do it - but when comic great like Will Eisner and Neal Adams started writing letters to Marvel demanding they show that respect to one of the men responsible for the creation of the Marvel Universe, he joined in.

Again - there was no profit sharing asked for. 

Jim Shooter has, for years, spread the bold faced LIE that Kirby sued Marvel. There is nothing out there showing Jack EVER tried to sue Marvel and anyone else familiar with the situation says the same. It's only that lying POS Jim Shooter who continues to spread this BS.

 

Back in his time there, I'm sure Jack DID expect to be rewarded for success when he was with Marvel and he saw things take off. Who wouldn't in a creative field? Geez, even Training Staff in the NFL get Super Bowl Rings.

According to Jack, Stan's original idea was that they would share in the success and that Stan made little promises along the way.

How to validate that?

By how hard Jack took the Tribune article. For the first time he clearly saw how Stan was positioning himself as the creative force behind Marvel. That happened in 1965!!!

For Jack, remember - with Joe Simon handling the bookwork and dealing with publishers - as a TEAM, they split the profits depending upon how much money was made. In the 40's and on through the 50's. When they split up, Jack kept doing the same kind of stories and didn't really ever see a use for writers. he sometimes was assigned one, and always of course had an editor - but Jack's stories - broken down in their simplest form - have always remained the same regardless of who was his 'writing partner'.

When he came back to Marvel, he did all of his own stories. Stan took credit for that much later. We know this is true because even then Stan was already signing his name to anything he edited, as the writer. He he was a part of it, he signed his name. He signed his name to covers and Millie the Model pin-ups! Those stories weren't signed by Stan.

They ended up working together to bring superheroes back. Stan saw the success, and maybe even tried to make a case for Kirby but Goodman most likely told him NOT to retain Kirby, and NOT to give him a contract. Goodman NEVER valued talent (much less anything in comics), and saw it as an ownership opportunity if Jack left.

 

[Aman619]

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

Hmm. I thought it showed that you don't have to screw over your creative people to be successful. 

Sort of how musicians started using agents in the 50's and 60's to make sure they weren't getting screwed over by record companies. Seems the idea just took longer to 'catch on' in comics.

Profit share? When did Kirby ask for profit share?

Here's what Jack asked for before he left (from 1965-1970): A CONTRACT, so that he could be secure in making a certain amount of money for his family. A shared credit for the work he did with Stan, so that people understood that HE was as important to the comics and ideas as Stan was.

That's IT.

He didn't ask for profit sharing. He just wanted to be seen as integral to the creation of new ideas and comics as Stan was - it WAS Jack's layouts he did for other artists and Jack's rough ideas they used for other comics... at the very least he'd done a tremendous amount of work to help build the Marvel Universe.

But Goodman and Lee saw it as an OWNERSHIP issue. They wanted to own what Jack had given them.

they didnt "want" ownership... they already HAD ownership.  When youre getting the milk for free you dont want the cow getting more that they already are.

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

No. They began this talk in 1965.

You must be thinking of how the INDUSTRY began to ask for artwork back, amidst stories of all of it that was being sold on the sly - and naturally Jack was interested to get his art back as well. Others were finally standing up to the publishers on the issue, why shouldn't he? Even then he was slow to do it - but when comic great like Will Eisner and Neal Adams started writing letters to Marvel demanding they show that respect to one of the men responsible for the creation of the Marvel Universe, he joined in.

Again - there was no profit sharing asked for. 

ok, using words differently I guess. Jack wanted "more", so Im sure more profits in the form of higher rates or guaranteed wages would sorta fall under that umbrella. But Maybe Goodman when NOT asked for profits from the things Kirby had created knew he didnt have to do much for Kirby, as Jack had already ceded the most valuable aspect of his push for "more".

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

Jim Shooter has, for years, spread the bold faced LIE that Kirby sued Marvel. There is nothing out there showing Jack EVER tried to sue Marvel and anyone else familiar with the situation says the same. It's only that lying POS Jim Shooter who continues to spread this BS.

Im not a fan either.  Rode with him for 20 minutes once.  He said the phrase "I did..." 50 times.

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

 

Back in his time there, I'm sure Jack DID expect to be rewarded for success when he was with Marvel and he saw things take off. Who wouldn't in a creative field? Geez, even Training Staff in the NFL get Super Bowl Rings.

According to Jack, Stan's original idea was that they would share in the success and that Stan made little promises along the way.

How to validate that?

Stan failing to follow through on that promise lies at Goodmans feet. Stan probably shouldn't have promised more than he could deliver.

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

By how hard Jack took the Tribune article. For the first time he clearly saw how Stan was positioning himself as the creative force behind Marvel. That happened in 1965!!!

well, Had Jack been half the showman Stan was and comfortable with the press, and Jack a lot more verbal and outgoing (selling mode) we wouldn't even be discussing this.  After the reporters moved from Stan to Jack, he was (by their words in the final piece" inarticulate at best.  So they turned back to Stan who as more entertaining and GOT what they were there to find out for their story!  The press writes about stuff they know nothing about most of the time, so they like and NEED subjects that do their work for them.

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

For Jack, remember - with Joe Simon handling the bookwork and dealing with publishers - as a TEAM, they split the profits depending upon how much money was made. In the 40's and on through the 50's. When they split up, Jack kept doing the same kind of stories and didn't really ever see a use for writers. he sometimes was assigned one, and always of course had an editor - but Jack's stories - broken down in their simplest form - have always remained the same regardless of who was his 'writing partner'.

Im left root wonder had their partnership needed more artists and writers how they would have paid them.  At the height of Neal Adams comics battles for artists rights, he produced his play Warp. It was ironic that he asked everyone - even comics people he knew - to sign waivers of ALL rights to their work on it.  say what?  

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

When he came back to Marvel, he did all of his own stories. Stan took credit for that much later. We know this is true because even then Stan was already signing his name to anything he edited, as the writer. He he was a part of it, he signed his name. He signed his name to covers and Millie the Model pin-ups! Those stories weren't signed by Stan.

They ended up working together to bring superheroes back. Stan saw the success, and maybe even tried to make a case for Kirby but Goodman most likely told him NOT to retain Kirby, and NOT to give him a contract. Goodman NEVER valued talent (much less anything in comics), and saw it as an ownership opportunity if Jack left.

 

Goodman again, who as you say, was not a nice guy. I agree.

[Prince Namor]

12 hours ago, Aman619 said:

they didnt "want" ownership... they already HAD ownership.  When youre getting the milk for free you dont want the cow getting more that they already are.

ok, using words differently I guess. Jack wanted "more", so Im sure more profits in the form of higher rates or guaranteed wages would sorta fall under that umbrella. But Maybe Goodman when NOT asked for profits from the things Kirby had created knew he didnt have to do much for Kirby, as Jack had already ceded the most valuable aspect of his push for "more".

Im not a fan either.  Rode with him for 20 minutes once.  He said the phrase "I did..." 50 times.

Stan failing to follow through on that promise lies at Goodmans feet. Stan probably shouldn't have promised more than he could deliver.

well, Had Jack been half the showman Stan was and comfortable with the press, and Jack a lot more verbal and outgoing (selling mode) we wouldn't even be discussing this.  After the reporters moved from Stan to Jack, he was (by their words in the final piece" inarticulate at best.  So they turned back to Stan who as more entertaining and GOT what they were there to find out for their story!  The press writes about stuff they know nothing about most of the time, so they like and NEED subjects that do their work for them.

Im left root wonder had their partnership needed more artists and writers how they would have paid them.  At the height of Neal Adams comics battles for artists rights, he produced his play Warp. It was ironic that he asked everyone - even comics people he knew - to sign waivers of ALL rights to their work on it.  say what?  

Goodman again, who as you say, was not a nice guy. I agree.

The gist of it all is that when broken down, Goodman's greed and Lee's ego destroyed what could've gone on for another ten years. It was Kirby sacrificing his own ego to stay at Marvel when Ditko told him straight out that he should leave as well and NOT to put up with Marvel's BS. Instead, after Kirby reached the apex of his career and decided that if he was going to be treated as a cog in the machine, he would perform as one. The art never suffered, but he pulled back from giving his ideas away for his last couple of years there. We got robbed because of corporate greed.

Ditko went on to make comics the way he wanted to make them. He never would have the success he did at Marvel, but he did things on his own terms for the rest of his life. Kirby eventually got a better deal at DC, but never did find the respect he craved from an industry of thieves. At least at DC he got his contract and residuals and even was paid royalties on his artwork used on the 'Super Powers' line of toys in mid 80's. He made more money and got better benefits working for a short time in animation (a few miles from his home) than he ever did in comics...

Goodman got screwed over by Lee and failed at trying to put a second comic book company together, even while poaching the talent from Marvel. Stan Lee never really 'wrote' much again, and spent the rest of his life chasing respect in the entertainment industry, only to get screwed over by people he thought were friends - but who were actually much better shysters than he was. Adored by millions while being ripped off by the very people he had propping him up. Very 'Uncanny Tales' like. 

Marvel's Commerce > Art approach has made them a lot of money. Which for many is an art form of its own. But for those of us that actually enjoy the unique creative talent of storytelling through sequential art - what they put out is pretty grotesque. It's a sad, incestuous form of regurgitated mush, producing (naturally) deformed art styles and eye rolling repeats of same-old-same-old editorially controlled stories.* Wolverine's Dead - no wait, he's back. Thor's a female - no wait he's not! There's a new Spider-man! No wait, the old one is still here... there's a crossover! There's a War (it' secret!) Ugh...

And less people read it all than ever before.

It's no wonder, millions and millions of copies of manga are sold throughout the world now. As an example, 'Demon Slayer' now sells about 5 million copies of each new book and even a series like Gantz (more of a niche seller due to the ultra violence and excessive sexual themes) has $19 million copies of it's 37 book run - over half a million each on average. Compare that to a trade paperback release in America, a popular one, and it’s around 15,000 copies…

 But hey, the movies make a lot of money, the merchandise sells billions, etc. Who cares about the stories right? 

 

*Even actual talent like Javier Rodriguez, who they probably get at a moderate rate because he's just happy to draw the characters he grew up loving, is wasted because the stories are so uninspired and laking any real unique creativity.

[mrwoogieman]

Stan said that watching Jack draw was incredible because of how fast he was, he said other artists would start with a circle for a head and another circle for the body and start filling in the details, but that Jack would just draw it all out like it already existed and he was just tracing it out. Stan also said the only other artist who was as fast as Jack was Joe Maneely. 
 

Here are some uninked Kirby pencils from his Captain Victory books for Pacific in 1981. 

[jjonahjameson11]

1 hour ago, mrwoogieman said:

Stan said that watching Jack draw was incredible because of how fast he was, he said other artists would start with a circle for a head and another circle for the body and start filling in the details, but that Jack would just draw it all out like it already existed and he was just tracing it out. Stan also said the only other artist who was as fast as Jack was Joe Maneely. 
 

Here are some uninked Kirby pencils from his Captain Victory books for Pacific in 1981. 

Love Joe Maneely's artwork.  I often wonder what the Marvel Silver Age would have been if Maneely was still alive to be Stan's 'go-to' guy, instead of Kirby.  

On Kirby, while he may not have received his artwork or character ownership during the zenith of his career at Marvel, wasn't it noted that he received substantial bonuses then?

[jimjum12]

18 hours ago, Aman619 said:

Stan failing to follow through on that promise lies at Goodmans feet. Stan probably shouldn't have promised more than he could deliver.

This is the crust of the biscuit ... what capacity was Stan operating at when these "promises" were made ? Was there an implied liability ? Jack was almost certainly promised more, he wouldn't have been so "bent out of shape" over just some garden variety disappointment. He may have been held back at a crucial juncture, if even one existing only in his own mind. The problem most of these publishing "sweat shops" had was in hiring talent who could draw AND do math. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)