Who sold all of that Silver Age Original Artwork from Marvel? 3 3

[gunsmokin]

Somewhere on my home computer, I've got photos that Michael Kaluta took after a "guy" brought a box full of silver age Marvel art up to his apartment.  Complete pre-hero Marvel art and early FF art including FF 11 and 12 I believe.

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by gunsmokin

[alexgross.com]

On 6/17/2021 at 2:25 PM, kav said:

I've done work for hire as an artist.  I dont get my art back.

illustration for many decades now has made a distinction between usage of artwork and actual original artwork. in my many years as an illustrator, i never provided original artwork, i sent film or scans. in kirby's day there wasn't much of a choice since marvel made the film. many non-comic illustrators from the 60s who i've known personally also had their work stolen or never returned to them. i havent read any contracts that were circulating then but it's unlikely that this distinction was made at the time. usage of kirby's artwork and ownership of the actual pages are not the same thing and i expect very little thought went into that distinction when pages were not worth much. 

[kav]

14 minutes ago, alexgross.com said:

illustration for many decades now has made a distinction between usage of artwork and actual original artwork. in my many years as an illustrator, i never provided original artwork, i sent film or scans. in kirby's day there wasn't much of a choice since marvel made the film. many non-comic illustrators from the 60s who i've known personally also had their work stolen or never returned to them. i havent read any contracts that were circulating then but it's unlikely that this distinction was made at the time. usage of kirby's artwork and ownership of the actual pages are not the same thing and i expect very little thought went into that distinction when pages were not worth much. 

Having drawn many comics and a couple GNs I have about a foot high stack of pages which I am always trying to give away.  I have no use for them. I guess if I gave most of em away and one day they were selling for a few hundred or a thousand I'd go aw damn.  
I did manage to give 140 pages of The Chronicles of Dr Death to the writer and 24 pages of one of my Rapid City books to the writer's GF.  I was glad to give them away.   I did try to give away the pages of my GN Am I An A Hole or is it Everybody Else to @Buzzetta but he would not take them.   I imagine it was like that back then.  These are pages I took a lot of time to draw but-they mean nothing to me.
Many of the pages have extensive drawings and notes on the back.  If anything these are more important to me than the pages because they arekind of like a journal.
 

Edited June 21, 2021 by kav

[Prince Namor]

7 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Love Joe Maneely's artwork.  I often wonder what the Marvel Silver Age would have been if Maneely was still alive to be Stan's 'go-to' guy, instead of Kirby.  

I always hear this and think... what makes anyone think Maneely brought the same level of Superhero work to the table as Kirby?

Maneely was an amazing artist, and could tell a story too, but... of the 60+ issues of superhero books Atlas did during his time there, he did TWO covers - both Sub-Mariner ones (both really cool, but not really superhero-ish). He had zero experience doing superhero stories, and as far as I can tell never even drew one in his almost 10 years at Atlas.

And Kirby brought superheroes to Marvel, not Stan. FF was essentially an offshoot of the Challengers of the Unknown.

Quote

On Kirby, while he may not have received his artwork or character ownership during the zenith of his career at Marvel, wasn't it noted that he received substantial bonuses then?

1960's Marvel Comics did not pay out bonus money. I remember asking Steranko about that once and he looked at me like I was an idiot.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, gunsmokin said:

Somewhere on my home computer, I've got photos that Michael Kaluta took after a "guy" brought a box full of silver age Marvel art up to his apartment.  Complete pre-hero Marvel art and early FF art including FF 11 and 12 I believe.

 

[gunsmokin]

30 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

Found it!

[Aman619]

I recall Koch’s comic store on the Upper West Side of NYC had a back room full of Atlas monster art.  Looks like maybe part of this pile? I don’t recall any Hulk pages, but they would have already sold, leaving the random monster stories behind. 

[Buzzetta]

2 hours ago, kav said:

Having drawn many comics and a couple GNs I have about a foot high stack of pages which I am always trying to give away.  I have no use for them. I guess if I gave most of em away and one day they were selling for a few hundred or a thousand I'd go aw damn.  
I did manage to give 140 pages of The Chronicles of Dr Death to the writer and 24 pages of one of my Rapid City books to the writer's GF.  I was glad to give them away.   I did try to give away the pages of my GN Am I An A Hole or is it Everybody Else to @Buzzetta but he would not take them.   I imagine it was like that back then.  These are pages I took a lot of time to draw but-they mean nothing to me.
Many of the pages have extensive drawings and notes on the back.  If anything these are more important to me than the pages because they arekind of like a journal.
 

That's not entirely true.

I turned it down for 'free'.  I felt that you should be compensated and set something up where the work was sold allowing you to make some money off of it.   However, with recent events, I may want to revisit that graphic novel of yours and select a page or two to hang up in my office especially with a title of "Am I an A Hole..."

 

Heck, I even encouraged you to get into contact with CGC to become an artist / cgc witness where you could do sketch covers.   If that hack / nutjob Anthony Castrillo could make a buck doing it then I am sure you would clean up around here. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Buzzetta

[Number 6]

12 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Heck, I even encouraged you to get into contact with CGC to become an artist / cgc witness where you could do sketch covers.   If that hack / nutjob Anthony Castrillo could make a buck doing it then I am sure you would clean up around here. 

A Birds of Prey sketch cover with kav’s thick girls would be amazing. 

[jjonahjameson11]

15 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

I always hear this and think... what makes anyone think Maneely brought the same level of Superhero work to the table as Kirby?

Maneely was an amazing artist, and could tell a story too, but... of the 60+ issues of superhero books Atlas did during his time there, he did TWO covers - both Sub-Mariner ones (both really cool, but not really superhero-ish). He had zero experience doing superhero stories, and as far as I can tell never even drew one in his almost 10 years at Atlas.

And Kirby brought superheroes to Marvel, not Stan. FF was essentially an offshoot of the Challengers of the Unknown.

1960's Marvel Comics did not pay out bonus money. I remember asking Steranko about that once and he looked at me like I was an idiot.

Love the Maneely covers so much more than anything Kirby could have done with the character at the time.

Although he didn’t draw superheroes for Marvel, Maneely’s work on Black Knight was exceptional!

[Prince Namor]

14 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Love the Maneely covers so much more than anything Kirby could have done with the character at the time.

Although he didn’t draw superheroes for Marvel, Maneely’s work on Black Knight was exceptional!

Maneely WAS exceptional. And his Black Knight in particular. But unfortunately he didn't do superheroes, and he didn't write stories with his art using superheroes. That's why it always puzzles me to hear people say, "What would the Marvel Silver Age have been like if Maneely would've did it instead of Kirby?"

Well.. it probably wouldn't have happened.

Maneely brought more detail to the page than Kirby did at the time, and both were equally fast - but everything about Jack's career adds up to the success he had in the Silver Age. He had been a hugely successful artist in comics, creating some of the biggest selling titles ever (Captain America, Boy Commandos, Young Romance - all selling over a million copies each), he'd had great success with superheroes, and he was already a story driven artist that needed little to no input from an editor or a writer to create his own work. 

Stan didn't create the foundation of the Marvel Universe, Jack did. It was created from the ideas of the Atomic Age, with monsters and aliens and science fiction themes. Jack did those books for Marvel early on in his return and when you mix that with a Challengers of the Unknown - you get a... Fantastic Four vs the Mole Man/Skrulls and eventually a Galactus. You get an Ant-Man, and a Hulk.  

As great as Maneely's art was... and he was GREAT, I just don't see where he showed the type of creative process for characters that Kirby did. Everything about Kirby's career led him to what he did in the Silver Age. Marvel didn't rise from the ashes on the strength of the Western or the War Books (both Maneely's specialty), but from Atomic Age themes (which Kirby had already done) mixed with off-beat Superheroes - also something that Kirby had already experimented with (Fighting American). I just don't see that from Maneely.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Silver Age could've been a lot cooler with Jack doing what he did and then Wally Wood staying on Daredevil and Joe Maneely doing the Avengers and Iron Man... that would've been awesome!

But without Kirby, the Marvel Silver Age would've never happened.

 

Note: I don't recall Ditko ever mentioning Maneely, but when I look over some of his work I can't help but see some influence there, especially from Maneely's Black Knight work! I wonder if Ditko was influenced by some of Maneely's work?

[pemart1966]

20 hours ago, gunsmokin said:

Found it!

TERRIFIC!  Thanks for posting!  All of that art should still be out there....

[KCOComics]

10 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Maneely WAS exceptional. And his Black Knight in particular. But unfortunately he didn't do superheroes, and he didn't write stories with his art using superheroes. That's why it always puzzles me to hear people say, "What would the Marvel Silver Age have been like if Maneely would've did it instead of Kirby?"

Well.. it probably wouldn't have happened.

Maneely brought more detail to the page than Kirby did at the time, and both were equally fast - but everything about Jack's career adds up to the success he had in the Silver Age. He had been a hugely successful artist in comics, creating some of the biggest selling titles ever (Captain America, Boy Commandos, Young Romance - all selling over a million copies each), he'd had great success with superheroes, and he was already a story driven artist that needed little to no input from an editor or a writer to create his own work. 

Stan didn't create the foundation of the Marvel Universe, Jack did. It was created from the ideas of the Atomic Age, with monsters and aliens and science fiction themes. Jack did those books for Marvel early on in his return and when you mix that with a Challengers of the Unknown - you get a... Fantastic Four vs the Mole Man/Skrulls and eventually a Galactus. You get an Ant-Man, and a Hulk.  

As great as Maneely's art was... and he was GREAT, I just don't see where he showed the type of creative process for characters that Kirby did. Everything about Kirby's career led him to what he did in the Silver Age. Marvel didn't rise from the ashes on the strength of the Western or the War Books (both Maneely's specialty), but from Atomic Age themes (which Kirby had already done) mixed with off-beat Superheroes - also something that Kirby had already experimented with (Fighting American). I just don't see that from Maneely.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Silver Age could've been a lot cooler with Jack doing what he did and then Wally Wood staying on Daredevil and Joe Maneely doing the Avengers and Iron Man... that would've been awesome!

But without Kirby, the Marvel Silver Age would've never happened.

 

Note: I don't recall Ditko ever mentioning Maneely, but when I look over some of his work I can't help but see some influence there, especially from Maneely's Black Knight work! I wonder if Ditko was influenced by some of Maneely's work?

Great post and I couldn't agree more.

Suggesting Maneely could have seamlessly replaced Kirby and Marvel would have had similar success, dismisses the creativity that Jack brought to the table. 

Joe was an amazing artist and Stan loved him, so I'm sure they could have done great things together.   But I don't think anyone could have done more than Jack. Jack had a perfect combination of industry experience, talent, and story telling. That, along with timing, Stan and a little luck created a universe that will outlive all of us. 

 

Besides, if Joe had lived and taken Jack's place, we might have never gotten Funky Flashman! 

 

[Terry JSA]

On 6/21/2021 at 5:58 PM, gunsmokin said:

Found it!

I wonder where these are today. Wouldn't be surprised if they were sold off in private sales and are sitting in someone's personal collection.

[kav]

53 minutes ago, Terry_JSA said:

I wonder where these are today. Wouldn't be surprised if they were sold off in private sales and are sitting in someone's personal collection.

[comicwiz]

On 6/16/2021 at 6:54 PM, Buzzetta said:

Some was sold:

https://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-sold-original-art-in-1973/

 

Some was stolen:

http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/mystery-of-missing-box-of-marve.html/

 

Some was thrown away:

https://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/19stolen.html

 

Personally I think that Bechara has it all and just doesn't want to tell us. 

And again, there are quite a few of us that understand what 'work for hire' actually is.  Kirby and the rest CHOSE to enter a field in art where their publisher owned everything they did and all intellectual property.  If they regret doing that then go find another job or pump gas.   Just as you are tire of hearing the Stan Lee created everything song and dance from Marvel, which I agree they do push a bit much, I have no remorse for any of the artists who believe they should receive royalties for what they created.  

 

Some of the more contentious issues surrounding the artwork Marvel kept at its warehouse is how poorly it was secured. More of this in a moment. Irene Vartanoff catalogued most of it (initially under the direction of Barry Kaplan, supposedly for "insurance purposes", but then after the audit, Irene Vartanoff wasn't sure if they even bothered due to the amount of it - keeping also in mind Marvel's art "vault" was located next door to a matchbook factory). So even that far back in time, Marvel realized the art had value, otherwise why in the world would you want to insure it? Tying-back to the point of contention, around the time Neal Adams and several other artists began asking for their art to be returned, Marvel wanted them to sign releases. One of the artists who refused to sign the release was Jack Kirby. So Marvel decided to hold his art hostage. Only to have one of the bullpen artists steal it from under their noses, until he was caught. In 2019, I wrote a five-part account of how Marvel's art ended-up disappearing and posted it on my Facebook timeline. I'd prefer not to post it publicly, however if anyone is interested, feel free to reach out on Facebook.

Edited June 23, 2021 by comicwiz

[kav]

1 hour ago, comicwiz said:

Some of the more contentious issues surrounding the artwork Marvel kept at its warehouse is how poorly it was secured. More of this in a moment. Irene Vartanoff catalogued most of it (initially under the direction of Barry Kaplan, supposedly for "insurance purposes", but then after the audit, Irene Vartanoff wasn't sure if they even bothered due to the amount of it - keeping also in mind Marvel's art "vault" was located next door to a matchbook factory). So even that far back in time, Marvel realized the art had value, otherwise why in the world would you want to insure it? Tying-back to the point of contention, around the time Neal Adams and several other artists began asking for their art to be returned, Marvel wanted them to sign releases. One of the artists who refused to sign the release was Jack Kirby. So Marvel decided to hold his art hostage. Only to have one of the bullpen artists steal it from under their noses, until he was caught. In 2019, I wrote a five-part account of how Marvel's art ended-up disappearing and posted it on my Facebook timeline. I'd prefer not to post it publicly, however if anyone is interested, feel free to reach out on Facebook.

Apparently Rick Parker had this to say:
I think it’s a bit odd that I worked in the Marvel Bullpen from 1977 until 1985. I came into the office to work every day. I often stayed in the office until 10 o’clock or so doing freelance work. I came into contact with all the editors, the staff, freelancers, and others and I never heard anyone talking about any art being stolen. Out of the hallway or anywhere else. You would think maybe that subject would have come up at least once in all that time. But to the best of my knowledge though it never did. I did hear that people didn’t value the artwork much or that some of it was given away to visitors or just plain lost. In those days you could just walk in off the street walk into the office day or night. After 5 you could not get into the building without passing the front desk and having your name recorded. In short if there were thieves stealing artwork it would be super easy. And I think I would have heard about it. We talked about a lot of things. Mostly we talked about creating comics. But I don’t remember ANY of my coworkers ever expressing a word about art thefts.
https://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2021/03/jack-kirby-and-art-of-theft.html

Edited June 24, 2021 by kav

[comicwiz]

9 hours ago, kav said:

Apparently Rick Parker had this to say:
I think it’s a bit odd that I worked in the Marvel Bullpen from 1977 until 1985. I came into the office to work every day. I often stayed in the office until 10 o’clock or so doing freelance work. I came into contact with all the editors, the staff, freelancers, and others and I never heard anyone talking about any art being stolen. Out of the hallway or anywhere else. You would think maybe that subject would have come up at least once in all that time. But to the best of my knowledge though it never did. I did hear that people didn’t value the artwork much or that some of it was given away to visitors or just plain lost. In those days you could just walk in off the street walk into the office day or night. After 5 you could not get into the building without passing the front desk and having your name recorded. In short if there were thieves stealing artwork it would be super easy. And I think I would have heard about it. We talked about a lot of things. Mostly we talked about creating comics. But I don’t remember ANY of my coworkers ever expressing a word about art thefts.
https://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2021/03/jack-kirby-and-art-of-theft.html

There's just too many people on record, and not 40 or 50 years later with bad memory recall, but within a few years of Irene Vartanoff producing the list, speaking out about incidents. After Steranko, the "I was there" angle to offer a contrarian viewpoint or to cover for someone has lost its effect, and just isn't enough to discount the dozens of others who have stated otherwise.

 

10 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Some was thrown away:

https://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/19stolen.html

@Buzzettacurious, where in that article did it mention about art being thrown away?

Edited June 24, 2021 by comicwiz

[Prince Namor]

4 hours ago, comicwiz said:

There's just too many people on record, and not 40 or 50 years later with bad memory recall, but within a few years of Irene Vartanoff producing the list, speaking out about incidents. After Steranko, the "I was there" angle to offer a contrarian viewpoint or to cover for someone has lost its effect, and just isn't enough to discount the dozens of others who have stated otherwise.

Yep. Or even in the case above, actual pictures of art that was taken.

 

[comicwiz]

On 6/16/2021 at 9:31 PM, Taylor G said:

This is a bizarre thread, throwing out accusations about people still alive and not mentioning the (now deceased) Marvel artist who is well known for pilfering the Marvel art.

As far as the "work for hire" chimera, the word is that Marvel settled with the Kirby family because they (and the rest of the industry) were terrified the courts were going to rule on their "work for hire" claims.

I agree. Also the comments about Kirby not deserving of getting his art back is really disappointing. None of them realize that Kirby was the only one who had to sign a special contract, most other artists didn't even have to sign anything. They also got their art. When Kirby refused to sign the release, they held his art hostage. It's been documented, and recorded with artists demanding Marvel return his art, but let's keep churning the old tiring work for hire arrangement as the be all, end all to sway opinions.