Does BP comprise part of a page's value? 0

[vodou]

On 6/23/2022 at 1:55 PM, Bronty said:

Trying to factor each individual person's circumstances into account is a fool's errand.    

Absolutely, especially since the introduction of cross-border (and thus, often cross-currency) transactions. I can't believe I just read that diatribe actually; it's ridiculous that anybody other than sour grapes party in that case should care. The rest of the collecting community, and the world certainly does not care.

But since we're bringing it up, okay and sure, what effect if any does the fact that the EUR is now trading roughly 20% lower than it was a year ago have on US auction sales/results stated and settling in USD? In other words, for any EUR denominated folks, not only is the global economy reeling in general but further..."for even the same dollars" everything "costs" 20% more in EUR terms? Hmmmm and huh. It's not impossible for me to imagine a few potential DKR1 bidders of means being less than enthused with the prospect of $2m plus 20% plus another 20% for currency loss in relatively recent history!

[Xatari]

Solid point.  I personally account for the BP as part of my cost or valuation of comps.  I don't include taxes, but certainly in places like California were tax is approaching 9%, it is a factor to consider for my personal bidding.  

[rjpb]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:08 AM, vodou said:

Absolutely, especially since the introduction of cross-border (and thus, often cross-currency) transactions. I can't believe I just read that diatribe actually; it's ridiculous that anybody other than sour grapes party in that case should care. The rest of the collecting community, and the world certainly does not care.

But since we're bringing it up, okay and sure, what effect if any does the fact that the EUR is now trading roughly 20% lower than it was a year ago have on US auction sales/results stated and settling in USD? In other words, for any EUR denominated folks, not only is the global economy reeling in general but further..."for even the same dollars" everything "costs" 20% more in EUR terms? Hmmmm and huh. It's not impossible for me to imagine a few potential DKR1 bidders of means being less than enthused with the prospect of $2m plus 20% plus another 20% for currency loss in relatively recent history!

Possibly but I'm not sure bidders on high end collectibles worry that much about those sorts of things, particularly if they are using money from investments that more than balanced the currency loss. I'm guessing they drop out when the price just feels "too high" in more abstract terms, especially for a unique item which can't exactly be comped. 

[Brian Peck]

I always add myself to the value of all the original art in my collection.   

 

Brian Peck

Edited June 23, 2022 by Brian Peck

[Rick2you2]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:06 PM, Brian Peck said:

I always add myself to the value of all the original art in my collection.   

 

Brian Peck

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Rick2you2

[grapeape]

On 6/23/2022 at 3:06 PM, Brian Peck said:

I always add myself to the value of all the original art in my collection.   

 

Brian Peck

You absolutely should Brian. In fact I always assumed BP was your initials for advising HA, and the 20% was your fee not the House.

 

 

[alxjhnsn]

I value it for what left my bank account - Bid + BP + Taxes + S/H. I record each fact separately in my spreadsheet to give a total.

If I were to sell (I've sold two pieces in 17 years), I'd ask at least that total for the piece.

[Timely]

On 6/23/2022 at 5:56 PM, alxjhnsn said:

I value it for what left my bank account - Bid + BP + Taxes + S/H. I record each fact separately in my spreadsheet to give a total.

If I were to sell (I've sold two pieces in 17 years), I'd ask at least that total for the piece.

Flipper!

[Michael Browning]

Every single penny that I have to pay is now part of the new value of the art when I sell it in the future. Others can try to come up with formulas and scenarios about the value and how it shouldn't include sales tax and/or shipping to keep the price as low as possible when they buy it from me, but, the new value of the piece includes tax, shipping, BP and whatever else it cost me to buy it. Every single penny.

[Brian Peck]

On 6/23/2022 at 3:27 PM, grapeape said:

You absolutely should Brian. In fact I always assumed BP was your initials for advising HA, and the 20% was your fee not the House.

 

 

I wish

[MyNameIsLegion]

 

Take a run of the mill  Sal Buscema Defenders panel page:  In the course of a few months, it could:

Scenario A

Sell on ebay for for $1000 (net $900 to seller1 after fees, paypal etc)

 Flipped to Comiclink and sold for $1500 (net say $1250 to seller2 for all his expenses, Profit: $250)

 Flipped to HA and hammers for $2000 (really 2400 with juice) Seller3 nets...maybe $1550? he paid shipping and tax from original purchase, etc. Profit: $250-$300) 

Current Owner: he paid HA $2650 all in, TTLSF etc.

If he in turn sells another Sal Buscema Defenders page on CAF or worse HA for $3600 with BP to pay for it, using this new perceived market for Sal Buscema Defenders panel pages that seems to think that $1000 page is now a $3000.  Yet in the course of 6 months, NOBODY made even a third of that in profit, but auction houses, payment services, sales tax and shipping costs account for over $1500 of that perceived market value.  

Scenario B:

Seller 1 sells Sal Buscema Defenders panel page directly to seller 2 for $900 cash

Seller 2 sells to seller 3 for $1200 cash

Seller 3 sells to Buyer for the above for $1500 cash

Buyer sells another page for $1500 to cover the above expense.

Suddenly, the market for Sal Buscema Defenders panel pages don't seem so frothy.

Same page flipped for the same % profit 3 times in 2 scenarios.

Conclusion: Auction Houses have an outsized and artificial influence on the perceived market value of many item

In both scenario's above, I don't just look at how much I have in a piece I'm selling. Most items people ask me about I don't want to sell.  I would make a nice profit on them, but I look at the replacement cost. What would it take to replace that piece with something comparable TODAY.  I could not afford to buy the collection I have or one like it. 

As we saw during covid- with extra cash, no conventions, and pent up demand- prices shot up as reflected in auction sales.   factoring BP, Tax etc that really inflated prices more. Everyone I know says they are price out of the market. If the economy is contracting, inflation is going up, eventually that should be felt in the OA market in some fashion.  It's harder to measure with art, but we all know the DKR underperformed at HA.  A great number of slabbed comics underperformed. They made money, yes, but the only one's we know for sure that made a profit were the auction houses.

[lobrac]

On 6/24/2022 at 9:33 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

 

Take a run of the mill  Sal Buscema Defenders panel page:  In the course of a few months, it could:

Scenario A

Sell on ebay for for $1000 (net $900 to seller1 after fees, paypal etc)

 Flipped to Comiclink and sold for $1500 (net say $1250 to seller2 for all his expenses, Profit: $250)

 Flipped to HA and hammers for $2000 (really 2400 with juice) Seller3 nets...maybe $1550? he paid shipping and tax from original purchase, etc. Profit: $250-$300) 

Current Owner: he paid HA $2650 all in, TTLSF etc.

If he in turn sells another Sal Buscema Defenders page on CAF or worse HA for $3600 with BP to pay for it, using this new perceived market for Sal Buscema Defenders panel pages that seems to think that $1000 page is now a $3000.  Yet in the course of 6 months, NOBODY made even a third of that in profit, but auction houses, payment services, sales tax and shipping costs account for over $1500 of that perceived market value.  

Scenario B:

Seller 1 sells Sal Buscema Defenders panel page directly to seller 2 for $900 cash

Seller 2 sells to seller 3 for $1200 cash

Seller 3 sells to Buyer for the above for $1500 cash

Buyer sells another page for $1500 to cover the above expense.

Suddenly, the market for Sal Buscema Defenders panel pages don't seem so frothy.

Same page flipped for the same % profit 3 times in 2 scenarios.

Conclusion: Auction Houses have an outsized and artificial influence on the perceived market value of many item

In both scenario's above, I don't just look at how much I have in a piece I'm selling. Most items people ask me about I don't want to sell.  I would make a nice profit on them, but I look at the replacement cost. What would it take to replace that piece with something comparable TODAY.  I could not afford to buy the collection I have or one like it. 

As we saw during covid- with extra cash, no conventions, and pent up demand- prices shot up as reflected in auction sales.   factoring BP, Tax etc that really inflated prices more. Everyone I know says they are price out of the market. If the economy is contracting, inflation is going up, eventually that should be felt in the OA market in some fashion.  It's harder to measure with art, but we all know the DKR underperformed at HA.  A great number of slabbed comics underperformed. They made money, yes, but the only one's we know for sure that made a profit were the auction houses.

I get it but…

There is no such thing as a run of the mill Sal Buscema Defenders page.

Heritage may have “lost” $2 mil on DKR #1 cover.

[Rick2you2]

On 6/24/2022 at 5:24 AM, lobrac said:

I get it but…

There is no such thing as a run of the mill Sal Buscema Defenders page.

Heritage may have “lost” $2 mil on DKR #1 cover.

I thought they were all run of the mill. Like Necco Wafers of the OA world.

[grapeape]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:44 PM, Michael Browning said:

Every single penny that I have to pay is now part of the new value of the art when I sell it in the future. Others can try to come up with formulas and scenarios about the value and how it shouldn't include sales tax and/or shipping to keep the price as low as possible when they buy it from me, but, the new value of the piece includes tax, shipping, BP and whatever else it cost me to buy it. Every single penny.

Michael in principle I mainly lean towards Gene’s opinion of price paid + BP. At that price point sales tax paid does not factor into setting the new FMV imho.

*On your point though certainly If I add up Price + BP + sales tax = x...... whatever that comes to, you can be sure at minimum that’s the price you’re  going to pay me to get it. I’m not taking a loss. I don’t buy big enough to benefit from write offs.
 

If I sell it at that price or higher than that sets a new reliable FMV. Whatever taxes the new owner pays in my opinion does not contribute to that valuation.

When the new owner sells, if he gets at minimum what he paid total including sales tax, than that sets FMV not including whatever that new owner pays in taxes.

Repeat. Repeat,

Good point though Michael.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by grapeape

[Rick2you2]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:38 PM, grapeape said:

Michael in principle I mainly lean towards Gene’s opinion of price paid + BP. At that price point sales tax paid does not factor into setting the new FMV imho.

*On your point though certainly If I add up Price + BP + sales tax = x...... whatever that comes to, you can be sure at minimum that’s the price your going to pay me to get it. I’m not taking a loss. I don’t buy big enough to benefit from write offs.
 

If I sell it at that price or higher than that sets a new reliable FMV. Whatever taxes the new owner pays in my opinion does not contribute to that valuation.

When the new owner sells, if he gets at minimum what he paid total including sales tax, than that sets FMV not including whatever that new owner pays in taxes.

Repeat. Repeat,

Good point though Michael.

 

Sounds to me like the difference between FMV and cost basis for tax purposes when booking a sale.

[Michael Browning]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:38 PM, grapeape said:

Michael in principle I mainly lean towards Gene’s opinion of price paid + BP. At that price point sales tax paid does not factor into setting the new FMV imho.

*On your point though certainly If I add up Price + BP + sales tax = x...... whatever that comes to, you can be sure at minimum that’s the price your going to pay me to get it. I’m not taking a loss. I don’t buy big enough to benefit from write offs.
 

If I sell it at that price or higher than that sets a new reliable FMV. Whatever taxes the new owner pays in my opinion does not contribute to that valuation.

When the new owner sells, if he gets at minimum what he paid total including sales tax, than that sets FMV not including whatever that new owner pays in taxes.

Repeat. Repeat,

Good point though Michael.

 

I will say that I hope I’m the only one who values art this way because I hope everyone I buy from only values their art for the exact cost of just the art - not including the shipping, BP and sales tax. 😁

[Xatari]

On 6/24/2022 at 2:24 AM, lobrac said:

I get it but…

There is no such thing as a run of the mill Sal Buscema Defenders page.

Heritage may have “lost” $2 mil on DKR #1 cover.

Or maybe not. Could be a long term play.