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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1956) Separating the Men from the Boys PART TWO
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Started by Prince Namor,

136 posts in this topic

Ken Aldred

Ken Aldred

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On 7/12/2022 at 3:47 PM, sfcityduck said:

On this we agree: Atlas did have an assembly line mentality. Pretty much all publishers did - S&K definitely included. That' was the whole point of a shop. What varied was the quality of the assembly line. And Atlas certainly had its highpoints. Read the Archives yourself and you'll find them.  

And in the early 60s Marvel fused super-hero comics with romance comic angst-and-bickering to create one of the greatest formulas with which to assemble a line of consistently-appealing and lucrative comic books. The best since EC’s.

Edited by Ken Aldred
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Ken Aldred

Ken Aldred

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On 7/12/2022 at 3:55 PM, sfcityduck said:

He effectively did when he created Impact and Incredible Science Fiction.

I’m a huge EC science-fiction fan, but compared to the New Trend stories there’s still something lacking with the material in Incredible Science Fiction, in the same way as I don’t connect to the EC artists’ Atlas work as much in general.  Personal taste, nothing more.  IIRC, Master Race was done before the Comics Code took hold, and the remainder of Impact 1 is unreadable in comparison to that classic story.  It does emphasise the precipitous drop in quality.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 7/12/2022 at 12:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

Before? Comics were young. Simon & Kirby became 50/50 partners in 1941. Not sure what you're on about with this junior partner stuff.

 

No. Simon was the predominant partner on a 60/40 split. He was already an art director when Kirby was a stringer.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 7/12/2022 at 12:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

What was it Simon did without Kirby?

Simon stole the idea - Kirby made it famous with his artwork - it sold over a million copies - and that's Kirby's fault? That's weird. 

 

Created Captain America. It was a hit from day one. Why? The beginning of WWII, which was not the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor but the fight against Germany which was playing out in the Atlantic before war was declared, and a surge in patriotism as FDR ramped up the country to enter the war. CA 1 was hyped by Timely from day 1, with the Sentinels of Liberty concept playing a big part. It was the right book at the right time. But back then, "hits" were much more prevalent because comics were new, had little competition (no tv, few similar movies, and radio was limited), and cheap. It was, however, a concept that was derivative - just another patriotic superhero which had an early plagiarism problem - not something to hang your reputation on when put in perspective. The art on CA 1-10 was not the best art seen in that comic.

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Ken Aldred

Ken Aldred

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On 7/12/2022 at 9:17 PM, sfcityduck said:

Created Captain America. It was a hit from day one. Why? The beginning of WWII, which was not the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor but the fight against Germany which was playing out in the Atlantic before war was declared, and a surge in patriotism as FDR ramped up the country to enter the war. CA 1 was hyped by Timely from day 1, with the Sentinels of Liberty concept playing a big part. It was the right book at the right time. But back then, "hits" were much more prevalent because comics were new, had little competition (no tv, few similar movies, and radio was limited), and cheap. It was, however, a concept that was derivative - just another patriotic superhero which had an early plagiarism problem - not something to hang your reputation on when put in perspective. The art on CA 1-10 was not the best art seen in that comic.

The first issue was no doubt also helped by its literally striking cover.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 7/12/2022 at 12:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Another hit that sold over a million copies.

Did some Romance? You mean had yet another HIT - Young Romance and Young Love sold over TWO million copies a month and ran for almost 9 years and were copied by the entire industry.

 

Again, there were lots of "hits" in the GA. Captain Marvel, Donald Duck, and many other books have tenable claims to being the largest selling books. No one is declaring the Fawcett artists who worked on Captain Marvel to be great artists (Kirby copied CC Beck's style when he worked on Capt. Marvel). They were just very popular comics. Good for S&K in being popular at times. At other times they were losing money. That's life.

The Romance Comic concept was, in retrospect, an obvious one. There had been romance themes and even single comics before Young Romance. Simon, however, saw the demand based on the numbers for magazines. So he jumped on the train by putting out a "Love" comic. Other publishers followed suit and did it better than S&K. (Remember, EC did horror and SF better, they did not invent that genre - that's a normal thing in the comic business.) So putting out Young Love is, again, just polish, not a case for being in the HOF. 

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sfcityduck

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On 7/12/2022 at 12:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

They were the first creator team to be featured on the cover of a comic book. Because they SOLD. THAT is seminal. 

 

That lasted for what?  Four issues of Adventure? Apparently, it did not add to sales so much that DC wanted to keep it going.

Bob Kane was the first DC artist to negotiate a royalty contract starting with D27 for Batman. He always received creator credit and income for Batman, even when unknown creators were doing all the work. Kane was the subject of articles for his creation (as were S&S). So the brief credits that S&K got on DC covers aren't that notable. They seem more like a desperate attempt by DC to attempt to capitalize on S&K when they were floundering with what to do with them. S&K at DC didn't create anything great, the best they did was milking the old kid gang concept. 

 

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sfcityduck

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On 7/12/2022 at 12:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

What was it Simon did without Kirby?

What did Simon do without Kirby again?

 

Great work on Fox's Fantastic, Science, Blue Beetle, and Wonderworld titles where he was basically ghosting the great Lou Fine, work on Blue Beetle, Amazing Man, Silver Streak and Champion, editing for Timely and Fox, and created multiple features for Timely before Captain America such as the Fiery Mask and Trojak. Simon was an important figure in the early GA before Kirby joined him. That's why Kirby was willing to be the junior partner.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 7/12/2022 at 4:24 PM, Ken Aldred said:

The first issue was no doubt also helped by its literally striking cover.

Absolutely. It was a HUGE hit. Kirby's art was considered game changing at the time. Outsold the Shield immediately, who couldn't even carry his own title.

He's just making stuff up now, I'm putting back on ignore. 

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 7/12/2022 at 1:56 PM, Prince Namor said:

Absolutely. It was a HUGE hit. Kirby's art was considered game changing at the time. Outsold the Shield immediately, who couldn't even carry his own title.

He's just making stuff up now, I'm putting back on ignore. 

Ignore away. I'd hate for you to get any cognitive dissonance.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1956

For September Stan Lee wrote:

Millie the Model #74 with Dan DeCarlo art

Homer the Happy Ghost #12 with Dan DeCarlo art

Outlaw Kid #15 - one Western filler story with Jay Scott Pike

Wyatt Earp #8 - one Western filler story with Ayers

Kid Colt Outlaw #67 - one Western filler story with Syd Shores

Two Gun Western #34 - Four Western stories with Joe Mnaeely, Reed Crandall, Doug Wildey, and Norman Maurer

Wild Western #53 - Three Western stories with Dick Ayers, Manny Stallman, and Syd Shores

Rawhide Kid #12 - one Western filler story with Pete Morisi

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1956

For October Stan Lee wrote:

Millie the Model #75 with Dan DeCarlo art

Melvin the Monster #4 with Joe Maneely art

A Date with Millie #3 with Dan DeCarlo art

Kid Slade, Gunfighter #5 - one Western filler story with John Severin

Ringo Kid #16 - TWO Western filler stories, one with Doug Wildey and the other with Fred Kida

Kid Colt Outlaw #68 - one Western filler story with Joe Maneely

Two Gun Kid #35 - one Western filler story with Dick Ayers

Western Kid #14 - one Western filler story with Ted Galindo

Six Gun Western #1 - Four Western stories with Joe Maneely, John Romita, Werner Roth, and Reed Crandall

Frontier Western #7 - Five Western stories with Joe Sinnott, John Romita, Jay Scott Pike, Werner Roth, and Joe Maneely

Western Outlaws #18 - Four Western stories with Joe Sinnott, Ross Andru, Dick Ayers, and Pete Morisi

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