Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1956) Separating the Men from the Boys PART TWO 3 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1956

And he returns for Yellow Claw #3! Writing, Penciling, and Inking, with a great Bill Everett cover. Jack gives us a microscopic army, another bizarre alien, and more!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1956

Yellow Claw #3 - Story TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1956

Yellow Claw #3 - Story THREE

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1956

Yellow Claw #3 - Story FOUR

[shadroch]

I read those Yellow Claw stories when they were reprinted in the Giant Size Master of Kung Fu run. When I looked for the original run at a few monthly shows, they were nowhere to be found. 

[Larryw7]

Even if Gaines changed the titles of his books, they would still be rejected by the code, which condemned vampires, ghouls, werewolves, walking corpses, good always having to triumph over evil, police and government figures always had to be treated with respect, etc. He was in a no win situation because the Code was written in such a way that traditional EC comics could never be published. I'm so happy that MAD became a 1,500,000 seller, so in the end he and Feldstein won. Divine justice or Karma, take your pick.

[shadroch]

So Stan was both perfecting the mini-series concept while personally creating the comics code in order to drive his competitor out of business and steal his top artists. 

What a genius.

[Prince Namor]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:05 AM, Larryw7 said:

Even if Gaines changed the titles of his books, they would still be rejected by the code, which condemned vampires, ghouls, werewolves, walking corpses, good always having to triumph over evil, police and government figures always had to be treated with respect, etc. He was in a no win situation because the Code was written in such a way that traditional EC comics could never be published. I'm so happy that MAD became a 1,500,000 seller, so in the end he and Feldstein won. Divine justice or Karma, take your pick.

Exactly. The Code was written to specifically stop EC.

And even when Gaines CHANGED what he did, the Code messed with him. The Code constantly harassed EC Comics, even with their new line of comics they got unjustly targeted. Feldstein is quoted as saying "Judge Murphy was off his nut. He was really out to get us" and " 'Listen', he told Murphy, 'you've been riding us and making it impossible to put out anything at all because you guys just want us out of business'." (from Tales from the Crypt: The Official Archives)

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/13/2022 at 10:05 AM, Larryw7 said:

Even if Gaines changed the titles of his books, they would still be rejected by the code, which condemned vampires, ghouls, werewolves, walking corpses, good always having to triumph over evil, police and government figures always had to be treated with respect, etc. He was in a no win situation because the Code was written in such a way that traditional EC comics could never be published. I'm so happy that MAD became a 1,500,000 seller, so in the end he and Feldstein won. Divine justice or Karma, take your pick.

The horror comics were too gory for the Comics Code.  You can see that with Ditko's work at Charlton.  The first Ditko Archive volume I read had some gory, disturbing material in it but with a degree of imagination, then you quickly hit the CCA-approved issues and the stories just feel enfeebled by the restrictions.  Nice art, but boring, vacuous stories.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/13/2022 at 7:11 AM, Prince Namor said:

Exactly. The Code was written to specifically stop EC.

And even when Gaines CHANGED what he did, the Code messed with him. The Code constantly harassed EC Comics, even with their new line of comics they got unjustly targeted. Feldstein is quoted as saying "Judge Murphy was off his nut. He was really out to get us" and " 'Listen', he told Murphy, 'you've been riding us and making it impossible to put out anything at all because you guys just want us out of business'." (from Tales from the Crypt: The Official Archives)

It is worth remembering that Gaines helped form the ACMP in 1947 and its publisher's code in 1948 (the precursor to the CCA). Check out this letter sent by EC at the time:

(Note: MC Gaines had died a year earlier, the skinflints were using old letterhead.)

So Gaines made his bed at the time. Not sure why Stan Lee is being blamed, when he was actually putting up a fight against the notion comics were bad for kids:

Gaines also had EC join the CMAA in 1954 and he voluntarily submitted his books to the CMAA created CCA - again making his bed. Not all publishers did, notably Dell, Western and Classics Illustrated. Gaines in interviews has stated that after changing his titles didn't work, he decided to give up on the comics format as an attempt to circumvent the Code. That worked for Mad, but it did not work for the picto-fiction crime and horror books.

The great mystery to me is why didn't Gaines keep publishing science fiction? I guess he didn't think it was adult enough for picto-fiction treatment or was not commercially viable. The latter may be the right answer because Gaines viewed the science fiction books as his personal favorites and the horror books as a way to pay the bills.

Worth noting that the conversation you reference concerned "Judgment Day" which appeared in ISF 33. EC refused to make the change Judge Murphy requested. Look at ISF 33:

It has the CCA stamp. Judge Murphy backed down on his requested changes. Gaines won the battle with the CCA!

But he decided to surrender in the war and voluntarily shifted to the magazine format. ISF 33 was the last comic he published. That was his voluntary choice and I can only wonder how history might have been different if he'd done things a bit differently.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1956

For November Stan Lee wrote:

Millie the Model #76 with Dan DeCarlo art 

Homer the Happy Ghost #13 with Dan DeCarlo art

Showgirls #4 with Dan DeCarlo art

Outlaw Kid #16 - one Western filler story with Pete Morisi

Rawhide Kid #13 - one Western filler story with Pete Morisi

Kid Colt Outlaw #69 - one Western filler story with Jay Scott Pike

Western Gunfighters #24 - one Western filler story with Alex Toth

Wyatt Earp #9 - one Western filler story with Dave Berg

[sfcityduck]

On 7/13/2022 at 12:13 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1956

Stan Lee wrote:

Western Gunfighters #24 - one Western filler story with Alex Toth

 

Considered one of Toth's best art efforts and Stan's writing does not get in the way. Read it here:

http://pangolinbasement.blogspot.com/2012/03/toth-western-gunfighters-24-his-back-to.html

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1956

And then... Jack Kirby took his idea for Challengers of the Unknown to DC Comics...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1956

Showcase #6 - Challengers of the Unknown - Part TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1956

Showcase #6 - Challengers of the Unknown - Part THREE

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1956

Showcase #6 - Challengers of the Unknown - Part FOUR

[shadroch]

I like Kirbys curved and circular panels, although he sometimes overdoes them in those stories.

[Prince Namor]

Only someone in complete denial could look at and read the work Kirby did in just the 2nd half of 1956 (especially compared to Stan's) and not make the connection of how his talent would be the catalyst for the eventual start of the Marvel Silver Age. Without Stan Lee, it wouldn't have had the impact it had, but without Kirby, it wouldn't have happened at all. There would have been nothing.

The idea that Stan Lee would have started something different if Joe Maneely had lived, or used some other artists is just absurd. Stan Lee shows no signs of creative character design, or even an interest in character story telling. He didn't write the attempt at bringing back super heroes in 1954, he avoided writing any of the name characters in the Westerns and preferred to just write filler stories, and even in his own books like Millie the Model, or My Girl Pearl, he showed ZERO character development and simply stuck to one liner comedy gags. 

A one off -script (Yellow Claw #1), forgotten by Al Feldstein, submitted to Atlas as a way to earn some money in his short time unemployed from William Gaines, showed more pizzazz and character development and creativity than anything Stan was doing at the time. It's much more likely that, Jack Kirby, with the help of someone like THAT (Al Feldstein and William Gaines), could've created the Silver Age if he hadn't hooked up with Stan. 

If Jack Kirby had walked into EC Comics, with his innovative creativity, at the right time... its infinitely more possible THAT could've turned into something that changed comics in the way that Marvel did in the 60's. 

If NONE of it would've happened and Marvel shut its doors in 1958, and Jack Kirby went into advertising, and DC and Dell and Archie and others would've carried on doing what they did... comics would've still survived. Comics fandom and fan publications didn't start with the birth of the FF. They'd been around for years, and most of what got Jerry Bails going (and Roy Thomas) was advice and information given to them from editors at DC Comics. Batman would still have a TV show, Superman would still be one of the best selling comics of the 60's, and there'd still be a Hall of Fame today. 

Would it be as BIG as it is today?

Most likely not. And for that we have Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko and Stan Lee to thank. Without all three of their efforts it most likely would not be what it is today. Though without Jack Kirby it never could've begun. HE was the catalyst. HE was the creative spark. 

That's why it's all the more grotesque to have had to watch Stan lie under oath in a court of law saying he created it all and that Jack and Steve were just the artists' he assigned HIS stories and HIS creations to. Yeah, his own words from the past have tripped him up, and shown him to be a liar, but Stan has an army of zombies who believe his every word and NEED to believe his every word. Stan was a better PR magician than Bob Kane ever was. 

I have no problem giving Stan Lee his place in history. It's more than time for Jack Kirby's place in history to be elevated to where it should've been in the first place. 

[shadroch]

Was Kirby lying when he testified in the Captain America ownership case?  He screwed his former partner joe Simon when Simon sued for ownership of Captain Marvel.  Kirby was more worried about keeping his job than telling the truth. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

For December Stan Lee wrote:

Millie the Model #77 with Dan DeCarlo art

A Date with Millie #4 with Dan DeCarlo art

Kid Colt Outlaw #70 - one Western filler story with Fred Kida

Western Kid #15 - one Western filler story with Jay Scott Pike

Two Gun Kid #36 - one Western filler story with Joe Maneely

Kid Slade Gunfighter #6 - one Western filler story with Syd Shores

Ringo Kid #17 - one Western filler story with Doug Wildey

Western Outlaws #19 - Four Western stories with Joe Maneely, Joe Sinnott, Reed Crandall, and John Severin

Quick Trigger Western #17 - Four Western stories with Joe Maneely, Fred Kida, Dick Ayers, and George Tuska

Quick Trigger Western #17 - John Severin cover