Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1956) Separating the Men from the Boys PART TWO 3 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

Not sure where Ditko was for a couple of months, but he wasn't getting anymore work from Atlas', so he went back to Charlton, a place where he could always and would always be able to get work. For Strange Suspense Stories #31, he did the cover and two stories inside.

Story ONE

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

Strange Suspense Stories #31

Story TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

He also had a 6 page story in Tales of the Mysterious Traveler #2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

And he did the cover for Unusual Tales #6

Ditko would only do one more story for Atlas until after the implosion, and he would mainly work for Charlton during that time. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

Young Romance #87 (Joe Simon cover!) - Jack Kirby would do THREE stories for Young Romance #87 for December, and other than one page he'd do in #88, that work would completely dry up...

Story ONE

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Story TWO

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Story THREE

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

Yellow Claw #4 - The 4th and final issue of Yellow Claw would feature a John Severin cover and his heavy handed inks. Some people hate his overpowering look on Kirby's pencils, but I don't mind the embellishment. 

Story ONE

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

Yellow Claw #4  

Story TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

Yellow Claw #4

Story THREE

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1956

Yellow Claw #4

Story FOUR

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/13/2022 at 8:43 PM, sfcityduck said:

Considered one of Toth's best art efforts and Stan's writing does not get in the way. Read it here:

http://pangolinbasement.blogspot.com/2012/03/toth-western-gunfighters-24-his-back-to.html

 

 

Love Toth’s artwork.  Like Richard Corben, visual storytelling that’s crystal clear even without looking at the text.

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/14/2022 at 2:50 PM, Prince Namor said:

If Jack Kirby had walked into EC Comics, with his innovative creativity, at the right time... its infinitely more possible THAT could've turned into something that changed comics in the way that Marvel did in the 60's

Not sure Kirby’s style would’ve fit in that well at EC. The only artist there that might have a stylistic similarity, with kinetic, tense linework, would be Kurtzman, particularly his early material, or Davis on occasion. Mainly Kurtzman. Maybe, before Kirby started exaggerating his style more and more in the 60s.
 

Timing would still have to avoid confinement by the CCA.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ken Aldred

[sfcityduck]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:52 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Not sure Kirby’s style would’ve fit in that well at EC. The only artist there that might have a stylistic similarity, with kinetic, tense linework, would be Kurtzman, particularly his early material, or Davis on occasion. Mainly Kurtzman. Maybe, before Kirby started exaggerating his style more and more in the 60s.
 

Timing would still have to avoid confinement by the CCA.

Kirby pencils inked by Wally Wood would definitely have fit in to the SF books as evidenced by the later Sky Masters of the Space Force newspaper strip. But even that collaboration would have been just more of the same at EC, and really would have been a tier below Frazetta & Williamson or Wood on his own when if came to the SF books. EC wasn't interested in doing the kind of books or stories where Kirby really shined, so I doubt there was any mutual attraction at all. 

Your Kurtzman comparison surprises me. The Dan Barry & Kurtzman Flash Gordon strip had some similarity to Kirby, but Kurtzman at his best with EC on his own in stories like Corpse on the Imjin and Airburst was doing work that was nothing like Kirby.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:52 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Not sure Kirby’s style would’ve fit in that well at EC. The only artist there that might have a stylistic similarity, with kinetic, tense linework, would be Kurtzman, particularly his early material, or Davis on occasion. Mainly Kurtzman. Maybe, before Kirby started exaggerating his style more and more in the 60s.
 

Timing would still have to avoid confinement by the CCA.

It would've had its real world obstacles for sure. 

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:09 PM, sfcityduck said:

Kurtzman at his best with EC on his own in stories like Corpse on the Imjin and Airburst was doing work that was nothing like Kirby.

I was more thinking along the lines of his earlier work at EC, before he started using the more minimalist style in the stories you mentioned.

His science-fiction material. For me, much more tense and energetic. I prefer that.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ken Aldred

[shadroch]

Kirby and Gaines working closely intrigues me. I wonder how that would have worked out.  Rather, I wonder how long that would have worked out.

I also wonder if at some point during this period, Mr Kirby didn't start to reassess his situation. His longtime partner, Joe Simon and he had started out on Long Island in virtually identical homes, but now Simon had moved to an exclusive neighborhood with four acre zoning, and Stan was living in Hewlett Harbor, an even richer and more exclusive neighborhood.  What would Jack have done if he'd shown up at Marvel  a day later, with the office furniture all sold and Stan on the phone negotiating his starting salary as an english teacher.  

[Prince Namor]

Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Co-Author: "The Secret History of Marvel Comics" (2013) Editorial support: "75 Years of Marvel" (2014) Editor: "Atlas at War" (2020) succinctly wrote:

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"(H)ere's the thing. I grew up on the 1960's Marvel Comics and did love them also. Then I studied the medium's history, and my views changed. Not necessarily my enjoyment, but my understanding of how the credit was portioned out in print. 

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"To anyone who knows the deep history of Marvel Comics (and I do, probably better than anyone), the heavy lifting (and by that I mean vast amount of plotting) and all the drawing was done by Jack Kirby. 

"Stan Lee put a veneer of glib dialogue onto stories (as well as his editorial thumb) and while many people like that dialogue, the stories themselves were primarily crafted by Jack Kirby (and Steve Ditko in Spider-Man & Dr. Strange). 

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"The "Marvel Method" of creation relied on the artist, after a conference, a discussion, a paragraph, a line, or nothing at all, to craft the entire story from whole cloth. It was then returned to Stan with rudimentary dialogue in the margins. 

"Stan then did his job, writing dialogue (which may or may not 100% follow the suggested dialogue). That's it. 

"That's how the 1960's Marvel Comics were created. In some, Stan may have suggested things, in others, the artist came up with the entire thing himself. 

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That's not to fault Stan. 

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"He was busy running a comic book line and always had several balls juggled in the air at once. The fault lies in the "credit". 

"Jack was the single most innovative creator in the medium's history. 

"If you want to make a good analogy, Stan was the greatest "ad man" in the medium's history. He was arguably responsible for a lot of the line's financial success, certainly, by over-the-top promotion and by sheer force of his personality. So I get that."

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"But the creative credit has never been accurate, even in the printed books, where Stan is past on record that "Jack often just brings the stories in without any input from me." Then the credits in that issue would say "Written by Stan Lee, drawn by Jack Kirby." 

"Jack and Steve Ditko complained so much eventually Stan gave in. 

"He begrudgingly finally gave plotting credit to Steve Ditko in Spider-Man and Dr. Strange, and made the Fantastic Four and Thor credits say the nebulous, "By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby". 

"So the idea that the inarguable success of both the comic book line and the subsequent movie studio is because of Stan Lee's "creativity", is fundamentally wrong. 

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"The success was because of Jack's creativity and Stan's unstoppable promotion, soap boxes and lecturing through the decades, grafted over the types of stories that Jack Kirby had been putting to paper for 20 years already. 

"Stan had not written a superhero story since 1942, when he was 18 years old. Jack had been one of the most successful super-hero creators for 20 years (heck, he co-created Captain America!). 

"These are things the general public does not know. I wish Jack could get even 10% of the public recognition Stan receives for the movies based on his creative output."

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"One last point. Does the general public know that on November 4th 1956 over four years before the Fantastic Four, DC comics published a feature in Showcase #6 called "Challengers of the Unknown" by Jack Kirby where 4 astronauts flew into space and crash landed, deciding to help mankind? 

"Same origin as the Fantastic Four. The only difference is it appeared in a time period where almost no superheroes were being published so the 4 had no super powers, becoming adventurers instead. 

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"In fact, there's a prior version of almost every Marvel character in Jack Kirby's background for other companies. As mentioned, he already did a take on the Fantastic Four earlier with "Challengers of the Unknown",

"Jack had done several "Hulks" two different "Thors" and had a man take an insect extract and shrink down to ant size. All done before his association with Stan Lee. 

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"And then, after leaving Marvel, Jack went on to create the entire 4th World for DC Comics, also soon coming to the screen. 

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Stan stopped writing when Jack left Marvel. His entire creative legacy consisting of 8 years between 1961 and 1969. Not before, not after. 

"He worked in comics 20 years before 1961, but there is no creative legacy. Jack's creative legacy stretches from 1940 to the 1980's."

"Following comics, Jack went into animation and continued to create characters kids saw on Saturday mornings. 

"Again, the general public does not know this. If I were I to put this into physical numbers, I'd give the creative percentages for 1960's Marvel at 70% Jack Kirby, 30% Stan Lee, and even that's being overly generous to Stan. 

"So when you mention Stan Lee and 1960's Marvel in the media, at the very least, say "Stan Lee & Jack Kirby", because to not do so does an incredible disservice to the greatest creative genius the medium ever had."

[shadroch]

Perhaps you might try spreading this among the general public.  Dr. V tried  and sold how many thousand copies of his book?  I doubt there was anyone here who thought Stan Lee was solely responsible for 1960s Marvel, and if there was, I doubt you changed their mind. It was nice seeing the rarely seen Black Knight and Yellow Claw stories.

If Kirby's greatness isn't known to the general public, constantly harping on it on a comic forum seems kind of silly.  Would you say this is the tenth thread you've started on the same subject? Fifteenth? Twentieth?

[mrc]

I would never have picked up a Marvel Comic at all if it wasn't for Stan 'The Man' back in the 70's (in the UK). What I do remember though is 'right off the bat' Stan made sure I knew who Jack 'King' Kirby was, and also Steve Ditko (because Picasso was out of town)  .....................

[Prince Namor]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:14 PM, mrc said:

I would never have picked up a Marvel Comic at all if it wasn't for Stan 'The Man' back in the 70's (in the UK).

Here in The U.S., I might not've either. Doesn't change anything above. I still think it's wrong for Stan to steal rightful credit from people. 

On 7/16/2022 at 6:14 PM, mrc said:

What I do remember though is 'right off the bat' Stan made sure I knew who Jack 'King' Kirby was, and also Steve Ditko (because Picasso was out of town)  .....................

Doesn't change anything above either. I still think it's wrong for Stan to not pay people for the work they did. Imagine having a job where you got people to do EXTRA work - something you'd normally have to PAY for someone to do (like writing)  - and it was GREAT extra work - and you not only didn't have to pay THEM for it - but YOU got paid for that work - and eventually made yourself successful and took CREDIT for that work. It's no wonder he praised them.

[mrc]

On 7/17/2022 at 7:47 PM, Prince Namor said:

Here in The U.S., I might not've either. Doesn't change anything above. I still think it's wrong for Stan to steal rightful credit from people. 

Stan had his own view of the creative process, Kirby had his. They worked in a collaboration It will always be a grey area but I don't think he 'stole' anything from anyone.

On 7/17/2022 at 7:47 PM, Prince Namor said:

Imagine having a job where you got people to do EXTRA work - something you'd normally have to PAY for someone to do (like writing)  - and it was GREAT extra work - and you not only didn't have to pay THEM for it - but YOU got paid for that work

Effective delegation is an essential management technique for business success.