Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Amazing Spider-man #9 - Letters Page...

[Dr. Haydn]

Steve deserves the lion's share of the credit for this fine story--though I think Stan did a better job than usual of reining in his jokey manner to match the serious tone of Steve's plot.

[Prince Namor]

Recently saw this from Don Heck's ledger... he was getting paid $10 a page for pencils and $20 a page for pencils and inks in 1963. 

 

Compare that to what Romita said about his page rate in 1957:

Around 1957 was when Stan and I were at our lowest ebb in our relationship. In the last year, he cut my rate every time I turned in a story. He was not even talking to me then. He was embarrassed, because he had given me raises for two years every time I went in, and then he took it all away. I went from $44 a page to $24 a page in a year.

Stan had me in once and said, "I notice you've been doing some romance stuff for DC." I said, "Yeah, to get some extra money." And he said, "Well, I gotta tell you, you know you're on my 'A' list, meaning if I got two scripts, you're gonna get one of them. But I'm going to have to take you off my 'A' list if you're going to do work for DC."

So I called up Zena Brody, the romance editor at DC - she was a nice girl and a pretty good editor, too - and told her I couldn't do any more for her, and she was very upset. She said, "Gee, I was counting on you." She was talking about doing a steady series with me. I told her, "I'm sorry, but Stan Lee is giving me the bulk of my work." She said, "We'll try to get you more work." But I said, "I have to decide now because I can't gamble. If you can't give me the work Stan is giving me, then I'll be out." And then, six months later, he let me go through his secretary.

I was so mad, partly because he had kept me from making extra money. Stan didn't know that I couldn't really earn any extra money - [laughs] - although he had gotten an idea by then that I was pretty slow. But that really tore me up, because I was thinking, "Gee, I'll never get into DC again." And a little later I walked in there and they welcomed me with open arms and I went from $24 a page to $35-$38 a page.

[Mmehdy]

On 5/25/2023 at 6:13 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Steve deserves the lion's share of the credit for this fine story--though I think Stan did a better job than usual of reining in his jokey manner to match the serious tone of Steve's plot.

The truth is finally coming out...as we progress, if I had to pick a year other than 1962...I would pick 1968....what a great year

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Fantastic Four #23 - 'Written*' By: Stan Lee  Illustrated** by: Jack Kirby  Inked By: George Bell  Lettered by: S. Rosen

Cover by Jack Kirby with inks by George Roussos

 

Part ONE:

*In no way did Stan Lee 'write' these stories. He, in most instances, like any editor, would provide ideas to the writer (in Marvel's case the writer/artist), who would then choose what ideas of those he may or may not use, sometimes maybe none (and sometimes none may've been provided!), and the artist/writer would then 'write' the actual story as he does the artwork. The writer/artist would then explain to Lee what the story was, what the characters were saying, where the dialogue should go, etc. - Lee would then provide the dialogue (he wouldn't allow the artists to write in actual dialogue).

**By 'Illustrated' they mean, that the artist would provide story ideas to the editor, which would then be turned into an actual story by the writer/artist, including the pacing, fleshed out ideas, what is being said, etc. It's hard to tell how little Stan actually had to do with this story, especially since it's Kirby here...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Fantastic Four #23 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Fantastic Four #23 - Just in case you're curious: Doom sends the three bad guys he recruited to another dimension to wait until he needs them again. Kirby never did use them again. 

Lee, being short on ideas and merely adapt at reusing old ones, uses them TWICE over the next year in Stange Tales' Human Torch stories with Dick Ayers (#122 and #129).

Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Fantastic Four #23 - Sue is an important part of this story, as Kirby WANTED strong female characters... but Lee's dialogue...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Fantastic Four #23 - Letters Page

[Math Teacher]

On 5/28/2023 at 4:56 PM, Prince Namor said:

*In no way did Stan Lee 'write' these stories. He, in most instances, like any editor, would provide ideas to the writer (in Marvel's case the writer/artist), who would then choose what ideas of those he may or may not use, sometimes maybe none (and sometimes none may've been provided!), and the artist/writer would then 'write' the actual story as he does the artwork. The writer/artist would then explain to Lee what the story was, what the characters were saying, where the dialogue should go, etc. - Lee would then provide the dialogue (he wouldn't allow the artists to write in actual dialogue).

**By 'Illustrated' they mean, that the artist would provide story ideas to the editor, which would then be turned into an actual story by the writer/artist, including the pacing, fleshed out ideas, what is being said, etc. It's hard to tell how little Stan actually had to do with this story, especially since it's Kirby here...

I have really been enjoying your posts in this thread. However, I think you're beating a dead horse by continuing to write this at the beginning of every issue recap. It's quite clear where your allegiances lie. However, I'm not disputing anything that you are writing. I just think it's getting a little monotonous.

[Mmehdy]

On 5/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Math Teacher said:

I have really been enjoying your posts in this thread. However, I think you're beating a dead horse by continuing to write this at the beginning of every issue recap. It's quite clear where your allegiances lie. However, I'm not disputing anything that you are writing. I just think it's getting a little monotonous.

But it is factual...and that. is the point for so many years the truth has been forthcoming ......But I agree that  a book by book evaluation is necessary as Stan did contribute.....so I am in support of commentary on each issue...and as we go thru these issues, the case builds stronger and stronger for  PN conclusion. This is coming for a 60 year collector who bought these books off the news stand or drug store.

[Steven Valdez]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Fantastic Four #23 - Sue is an important part of this story, as Kirby WANTED strong female characters... but Lee's dialogue...

Had Mr Ayers left the FF at this point?

 

[Prince Namor]

On 5/28/2023 at 10:39 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Had Mr Ayers left the FF at this point?

 

Yes. Roussos would be the inker for a few more issues, then we'd get Chic Stone for about a year, Colletta does a few issues and then Joe Sinnott begins the legendary run with issue #44.

If Ayers was anything like how he portrayed himself in his illustrated biography, he constantly felt he should be a lead artist as opposed to someone's inker. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Jack Kirby also drew the cover for Rawhide Kid #38, inked by Sol Brodsky. And no, that's not the same Golden Age Red Raven. That's Redford Raven and his 'medicine enchanted' wings, calling himself the Red Raven.  

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Strange Tales #117 - 'Written' By: Stan Lee  Illustrated by: Dick Ayers  Lettered by: Art Simek

Cover by Jack Kirby with inks by George Roussos

A lot of these lame Strange Tales villains make Johnny Storm look like an idiot. The Human Torch has the power of flight and flame, and non-powered earth bound bad guys like this shouldn't have been so difficult for him to deal with. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Strange Tales #117 - Ad for X-Men #3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Strange Tales #117 - 'Written' By: Stan Lee  Illustrated by: Steve Ditko  Lettered by: S. Rosen

Doctor Strange gets a small box mention on the cover.

Ditko turned this story in with completed story and art.

To get the most out of his allotted 8 pages (1 is a splash), Ditko uses a 10 panel grid twice, a 9 panel grid THREE times, an 8 panel grid twice. Wow!

[Dr. Haydn]

On 5/29/2023 at 4:06 AM, Prince Namor said:

Yes. Roussos would be the inker for a few more issues, then we'd get Chic Stone for about a year, Colletta does a few issues and then Joe Sinnott begins the legendary run with issue #44.

If Ayers was anything like how he portrayed himself in his illustrated biography, he constantly felt he should be a lead artist as opposed to someone's inker. 

And I think there were one or two issues inked by Frank Ray (Giacoia) before Colletta's (non-legendary) run. Frank wasn't quite as good as Sinnott, but he always did a great job over Jack's pencils.

[Steven Valdez]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:54 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1963

Strange Tales #117 - 'Written' By: Stan Lee  Illustrated by: Dick Ayers  Lettered by: Art Simek

Cover by Jack Kirby with inks by George Roussos

A lot of these lame Strange Tales villains make Johnny Storm look like an idiot. The Human Torch has the power of flight and flame, and non-powered earth bound bad guys like this shouldn't have been so difficult for him to deal with. 

D'oh, Mr Ayers isn't too far away from the FF just yet... sheesh, Johnny looks different in every panel. I actually have this issue, pretty much only because I dig the cover. Speaking of which, the Eel looks like he was drawn by Ditko there.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

D'oh, Mr Ayers isn't too far away from the FF just yet... sheesh, Johnny looks different in every panel. I actually have this issue, pretty much only because I dig the cover. Speaking of which, the Eel looks like he was drawn by Ditko there.

Johnny's supposed to be 16 or 17. Ayers generally makes him look much older than that.

Good eyes, by the way, on the Eel. Pencil and ink credits from GCD:

  Pencils

Jack Kirby; Steve Ditko (Eel figure)

Inks

Sol Brodsky; Steve Ditko (Eel Figure)

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
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