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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures!
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 6/14/2023 at 6:41 PM, Prince Namor said:

The Truth: Goodman held Stan to 8 titles a month because he didn't believe in him and wanted to shut the comics down. Only Jack Kirby's vision saved Marvel.

That's why Stan created the story he did. 

And of course, Marvel's publication record debunks the 8 titles a month story from about 1960 onward...

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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

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Over in comics general there is a posting of the review of the stan lee Disney film by Neal Kirby his son....I hope someone can transfer that over to this thead....very interesting and we know the real story here. One other point, there is a copy from the early challengers of the  unknown  promo ad....which is almost the same as the top of the page of FF1.....wow very interesting if someone could post that. blown up.......comments on his opinion?

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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On 6/19/2023 at 5:30 AM, Mmehdy said:

Over in comics general there is a posting of the review of the stan lee Disney film by Neal Kirby his son....I hope someone can transfer that over to this thead....very interesting and we know the real story here. One other point, there is a copy from the early challengers of the  unknown  promo ad....which is almost the same as the top of the page of FF1.....wow very interesting if someone could post that. blown up.......comments on his opinion?

I've seen a few reviews of the new S. Lee "documentary". All of them say he's "the creator" of Spider-Man, FF, X-Men etc etc etc.

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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On 6/19/2023 at 4:32 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

This demonstrates one thing: Kirby acknowledged his source material, even if no one else does.

And his "source material" was his own stuff. He also did two pre-1960s versions of Thor, although S.Lee claimed to have "dreamed up" the Marvel version from scratch.

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Zonker

Zonker

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On 6/19/2023 at 3:02 AM, Steven Valdez said:

And his "source material" was his own stuff. He also did two pre-1960s versions of Thor, although S.Lee claimed to have "dreamed up" the Marvel version from scratch.

Yes, I push back here occasionally on some of the more sweeping claims that seem to verge into conspiracy theorizing, but in the case of Thor, Stan's own words convict him of making up a Thor creation myth out of whole cloth.

He claimed he was being interviewed on a radio show prior to producing Journey into Mystery #83?  Did anyone outside of comics fandom even know who Stan Lee was in early 1962, much less have any interest in listening to him on the radio?  And supposedly the interviewer remarked that Marvel was creating a modern pantheon, and that gave Stan the idea for tapping into the Norse myths?  Some pantheon.  At that point you could point to no more than 6 members of this supposed pantheon then in publication: Human Torch, Invisible Girl, the Thing, Mr. Fantastic, the Sub-Mariner, and (just barely) the Hulk.  Ant-Man had appeared, but not in costume, so unlikely to be recognized as a 7th member of this group.

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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On 6/19/2023 at 10:23 PM, Zonker said:

Yes, I push back here occasionally on some of the more sweeping claims that seem to verge into conspiracy theorizing, but in the case of Thor, Stan's own words convict him of making up a Thor creation myth out of whole cloth.

He claimed he was being interviewed on a radio show prior to producing Journey into Mystery #83?  Did anyone outside of comics fandom even know who Stan Lee was in early 1962, much less have any interest in listening to him on the radio?  And supposedly the interviewer remarked that Marvel was creating a modern pantheon, and that gave Stan the idea for tapping into the Norse myths?  Some pantheon.  At that point you could point to no more than 6 members of this supposed pantheon then in publication: Human Torch, Invisible Girl, the Thing, Mr. Fantastic, the Sub-Mariner, and (just barely) the Hulk.  Ant-Man had appeared, but not in costume, so unlikely to be recognized as a 7th member of this group.

Here's Larry's brother on video, making out as if hapless Kirby came to him wondering what they could come up with next.. The venerable guru S. Lee says, "It occurred to ME that the only thing we could come up with was a god... I thought it would be fun to make a god a hero." After dismissing the idea of a Roman or Greek god, he continued, "I stumbled on the NORSE gods... I was reading about them and I came across the mighty THOR..."

So there you have it, S. Lee came up entirely with the idea of Thor as a superhero, even though the guy who had already done almost the same thing years earlier was right there with him at the time.

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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

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On 6/19/2023 at 5:56 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Here's Larry's brother on video, making out as if hapless Kirby came to him wondering what they could come up with next.. The venerable guru S. Lee says, "It occurred to ME that the only thing we could come up with was a god... I thought it would be fun to make a god a hero." After dismissing the idea of a Roman or Greek god, he continued, "I stumbled on the NORSE gods... I was reading about them and I came across the mighty THOR..."

So there you have it, S. Lee came up entirely with the idea of Thor as a superhero, even though the guy who had already done almost the same thing years earlier was right there with him at the time.

It appears Stan actually believes his own BS...keep telling yourself something enough times and you can convince yourself of anything...and jack just happened to be around...his " story " is just that...make believe and a bad one.The true marvel method is Stan editing Jack and Steve and getting double paid as writher and editor. Joan Lee was known as a big spender and put pressure on Stan to get that double paycheck......when things exploded Stan created within the company the fact he was not replaceable by taking credit for the creation...then as time went on he gave the artists some co-creation  crumb to Kiribyt by saying that Jack created the SS....Stan, looking at your body language in this video....you were were not 100% convinced yourself. Neal is spot ON.

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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And Larry Lieber gets co-creator credit on Thor ahead of Kirby because he wrote in the words for the already plotted and drawn JIM #83.

I wonder how much Larry was paid for that easy afternoon's task when Marvel settled with him recently?

Edited by Steven Valdez
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BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

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On 6/19/2023 at 4:01 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Jack Kirby’s Three Thors

https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/2011/05/04/kirbysthreethors/

There was a Thor in Weird Comics in 1940 who was not only a Norse God but a normal guy who was given the power to change into a Norse God.  Neither Stan nor Larry were involved.  But neither was Jack (though he was the only one working in comics at the time).  I'm curious to see how, of the three men who claimed credit for the 1962 Thor, the existence of a 1940 Thor will be cited as proof that only two of them are plagiarists or liars.        

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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On 6/20/2023 at 11:25 AM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

There was a Thor in Weird Comics in 1940 who was not only a Norse God but a normal guy who was given the power to change into a Norse God.  Neither Stan nor Larry were involved.  But neither was Jack (though he was the only one working in comics at the time).  I'm curious to see how, of the three men who claimed credit for the 1962 Thor, the existence of a 1940 Thor will be cited as proof that only two of them are plagiarists or liars.        

What issue of Weird Comics did the 1940 version appear in? Edit.. OK, issues 1 to 5. Looks like there were all kinds of Thors running around between then and 1962:

"There were several comic book depictions of the mythological god Thor before the famous Marvel character we know today which appeared Journey into Mystery #83 by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee.  These include versions that have appeared in comics such as Adventure Comics #75 (June 1942), Boy Commandos #7 (Summer 1944), Tales of the Unexpected #16 (August 1957), and Charlton's Out of This World # 11 (January 1959).  Marvel itself had published a prior version of Thor who debuted in Venus #12 (February 1951).  There have been others. But one of the earliest and most interesting of these was Thor, God of Thunder who debuted in Weird Comics #1 from artist Pierce Rice.  This Thor's adventures ran in Weird Comics #1-5."

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/thor-god-of-thunder-in-fox-features-weird-comics-up-for-auction/

Edited by Steven Valdez
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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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This is where Roy Thomas made up much of the current narrative of the creation of the Marvel Universe - in this interview (less than a year after Roz's passing - the last obstacle) .... here's an example as Stan says the golf game story is 'absolutely true', when in fact we know it is NOT. 

355489619_10161018313047022_1144236375288982532_n.jpg

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