Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:29 PM, mrc said:

................on the issue of the initial creation, Ditko stated, "I still don't know whose idea was Spider-Man". Ditko did, however, view the published version of Spider-Man as a separate creation to the one he saw in the five pencilled pages that Kirby had completed. To support this Ditko used the analogy of the Kirby/Marvel Thor, which was based on a name/idea of a character in Norse mythology: "If Marvel's Thor is a valid created work by Jack, his creation, then why isn't Spider-Man by Stan and me valid created work, our creation?"  

It is. As I said, I think Kirby misspoke there in a moment of anger. He addressed the situation before and after that in interviews and never used the phrase 'created' to discuss his part in it. He fully gives Ditko the credit for making it his own. 

"...the credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it."

"Steve developed Spider-Man and made a salable item out of it. There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands..."

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

 

[Prince Namor]

But there are reasons Kirby believed he had a hand in it... as Stan Taylor wrote:

"The very last costumed super-hero book that Kirby produced, prior to Marvel, featured an insect hero able to climb walls and ceilings; had super strength, the agility of a bug, and, amazingly, an extra sense that warned him of danger. In The Adventures of the Fly, (Archie Publications 1959,) Simon and Kirby introduced The Fly, a hero with the exact same insect derived powers that show up in Spidey. In fact, the only physical difference is that the Fly can fly. The most interesting aspect for me is the match-up of a “sixth sense” to warn of danger. While the other powers (wall climbing, etc.) might be considered generic to any insect, this warning sense is, as far as I know, something totally unique and beyond the norm of the natural attributes of insects. The addition of this unnatural extra sense showing up in both creations is just too coincidental."

 

The original memo for the Silver Spider by Kirby and Simon that preceded the Fly:

EDITORIAL MEMORANDUM #2

TO: LEON HARVEY February 23, 1954
FROM: SID JACOBSON
RE: SILVER SPIDER

Conclusions on character:

Physical appearance- The Silver Spider should be thought of as a human spider. All conclusions on his appearance should stem from the attributes of the spider. My first thought of the appearance of a human spider is a tall thin wiry person with long legs and arms. He should have a long bony face, being more sinister then handsome. The face of the Submariner comes to mind.

Powers: The powers of the human spider should pretty much correspond to the power of a spider. He therefore wouldn’t have the power of flight (author’s note: something hinted at in Simon’s proposal) but could accomplish great acrobatical tricks, an almost flight, by use of silken ropes that would enable him to swing ala Tarzan, or a Batman. The silken threads that the spider would use might come from a special liquid, from some part of his costume that would become silken threads in much the same way as the spider insect. These threads would also be used in making of a web, which could also be used as a net. The human spider might also have a “poison” to be used as a paralyzing agent.

Nemesis—His main nemesis should be a natural enemy of a spider—either The Fly, or Mr. D.D.T……

-end of memo-

 

[Mmehdy]

On 6/24/2023 at 2:55 PM, sfcityduck said:

You cannot reconcile this:

KIRBY: "I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. I drew the first Spider-Mancover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all. We decided to give the book to Steve Ditko who was the right man for the job. He did a wonderful job on that."

With this:

DITKO: "What if I never said anything about the Simon Fly and Kirby had completed pencilling that magic ring-teenager-into-an-adult-SM-legend story? I would just be inking Jack's pencilled and Stan's dialogued pages. SM would have Jack's adult SM in a costume resembling Captain America's costume with the same type open-face mask and a belt with a holster for a web gun (like the Tarantula). There would be lots of nots: Not my web-designed costume, not a full mask, web-shooters, no spider-senses, no spider-like action, poses, fighting style and page breakdowns, etc."

Or this:

YOU: "I'm just looking for the truth."

I think the actual truth will never be known and I believe that everyone is right and wrong in their own viewpoints similarly to 5 witnesses seeing the same event and each testimony differs. 
 One critical fact which works both for  and against Kirby’s claim…

 the fact Ditko did the original cover of AF 15 which Stan as editor shows that Steve was in control of this from day one

timewise Kirby  comes in and redoes AF 15 cover… and creates a superior  image which in my opinion created the definitive Spider-Man look which was historic.

so it’s the chicken and egg issue..

I can understand Kirby taking some credit creating the the AF 15 classic defining cover….I can understand Ditko claiming the majority of the credit with is his issue by issue analysis.

but SFDUCK….,one major point you seem to have forgotten…., Stan the Man is nowhere to be found in this equation…. Just Stan the editor.. two creative geniuses crossing paths with Stan sitting on the sidelines!!!!!!!!!!!

 

.

 

[Steven Valdez]

I'm inclined to take Kirby at his word. He said he created Spider-man, including the costume we all know. He then handed it off to Ditko who further developed the character and his world.

I contend that Kirby drew the image used as the cover for Amazing Fantasy as a character presentation image -- then Ditko based his version on that, as he would be drawing the book. Comparing the two, Stan opted to go with Kirby's.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I'm inclined to take Kirby at his word. He said he created Spider-man, including the costume we all know. He then handed it off to Ditko who further developed the character and his world.

I contend that Kirby drew the image used as the cover for Amazing Fantasy as a character presentation image -- then Ditko based his version on that, as he would be drawing the book. Comparing the two, Stan opted to go with Kirby's.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that Kirby’s AF 15 cover was a presentation piece before, but I like the idea.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/25/2023 at 5:03 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I don’t think anyone has suggested that Kirby’s AF 15 cover was a presentation piece before, but I like the idea.

Thanks. I'd say the same is possible for Kirby's images that ended up as the covers on FF #1, Hulk #1, JIM #83, TOS #39, Avengers #1, X-Men #1 and Daredevil #1.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/25/2023 at 3:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Thanks. I'd say the same is possible for Kirby's images that ended up as the covers on FF #1, Hulk #1, JIM #83, TOS #39, Avengers #1, X-Men #1 and Daredevil #1.

As well as the many pin-ups that were published around the time. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/25/2023 at 10:29 PM, Prince Namor said:

As well as the many pin-ups that were published around the time. 

Yes, 100%.

[Mmehdy]

On 6/24/2023 at 11:24 PM, Steven Valdez said:

I'm inclined to take Kirby at his word. He said he created Spider-man, including the costume we all know. He then handed it off to Ditko who further developed the character and his world.

I contend that Kirby drew the image used as the cover for Amazing Fantasy as a character presentation image -- then Ditko based his version on that, as he would be drawing the book. Comparing the two, Stan opted to go with Kirby's.

that is very possible but I am inclined to think they knew at that point Kirby was a aid to selling books with Kirby covers which could have been another factor!

Edited June 25, 2023 by Mmehdy

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:53 AM, Mmehdy said:

that is very possible but I am inclined to think they knew at that point Kirby was a aid to selling books with Kirby covers which could have been another factor!

Kirby and Ditko had both been with the company for a few years at that point, drawing monsters and other paranormal tales (at Kirby's instigation). Is there any data that Kirby's covers sold better than Ditko's?

[Zonker]

On 6/25/2023 at 2:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I'm inclined to take Kirby at his word. He said he created Spider-man, including the costume we all know. He then handed it off to Ditko who further developed the character and his world.

I contend that Kirby drew the image used as the cover for Amazing Fantasy as a character presentation image -- then Ditko based his version on that, as he would be drawing the book. Comparing the two, Stan opted to go with Kirby's.

In order to believe that, we would need to take Kirby's word over Ditko's.  Ditko was pretty adamant that the Spider-Man concept he got from Kirby (transmitted via Lee) was completely different from the eventual web-head design:

I think this is just a case of Kirby exaggerating some of his history (something I think he did occasionally, but of course nowhere near to the extent Stan exaggerated Stan's own contributions).  Besides, if Kirby's Amazing Fantasy #15 cover was the original concept drawing for Spider-Man, why the need to  bring Ditko into the mix at all?  ...unless we now want to believe Stan's story that Kirby drew him "too heroic" 

[Prince Namor]

I believe Ditko created the costume. 

Once again, the TCJ Interview was at a time when Kirby was furious at Marvel over his original art situation - Jim Shooter was lying and saying Kirby was suing Marvel - it was all a big mess and Jack was getting old (he'd pass away 4 years later) and just fed up with Stan Lee and Marvel Comics. 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:44 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Kirby and Ditko had both been with the company for a few years at that point, drawing monsters and other paranormal tales (at Kirby's instigation). Is there any data that Kirby's covers sold better than Ditko's?

No data, just the fact that Stan would use Kirby for every cover he could, while Ditko was relegated to occasionally. Except for once Spidey was up and going. But we didn't even see many Strange Tales cover with Dr. Strange. It was always a Kirby Torch or a Kirby Nick Fury cover. 

And even on the Monster Books, it was probably 50 Kirby covers for every ONE Ditko cover. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:20 AM, Zonker said:

In order to believe that, we would need to take Kirby's word over Ditko's.  Ditko was pretty adamant that the Spider-Man concept he got from Kirby (transmitted via Lee) was completely different from the eventual web-head design:

I think this is just a case of Kirby exaggerating some of his history (something I think he did occasionally, but of course nowhere near to the extent Stan exaggerated Stan's own contributions).  Besides, if Kirby's Amazing Fantasy #15 cover was the original concept drawing for Spider-Man, why the need to  bring Ditko into the mix at all?  ...unless we now want to believe Stan's story that Kirby drew him "too heroic" 

I believe Ditko was brought in to do Spider-Man because Kirby already had more than enough on his plate, which Kirby is on record as saying. I stil think Kirby designed Spidey's wbe costume, but I realise that's the minority view. There's still the Ben Cooper costume mystery around it all, which will likely never be resolved. Ditko was very defensive when he was asked about that.

[Steven Valdez]

Oddly, there's a story in FF Annual #1 (1963) in which the FF meet Spidey for the first time, drawn by Kirby. This is supposedly an expanded (6-page) version of the same sequence that had already appeared in Amazing Spider-Man #1 as drawn by Ditko. Stan Lee explains to the readers on the first page of the Kirby version that this 're-done' story was the result of 'countless requests' to expand on the original 2-page Ditko version. Problem is, the Ditko version was just over 4 pages long, not 'merely 2'. Many of the panels in both versions are nearly identical, so one artist was clearly copying the other. The Kirby version has a few additional action panels that don't add anything to the tale. So, the Kirby version is clearly redundant. But I think it was done before the Ditko version and may have been intended for Amazing Fantasy #15 before Kirby was either taken off the project or opted off doing it. It was prossibly supposed to have been part of Spidey's origin story. Stan Lee most likely just wanted to print the seemingly pointless Kirby version in FF Annual #1 as he would have already paid Kirby for the work.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/26/2023 at 1:44 PM, Prince Namor said:

No data, just the fact that Stan would use Kirby for every cover he could, while Ditko was relegated to occasionally. Except for once Spidey was up and going. But we didn't even see many Strange Tales cover with Dr. Strange. It was always a Kirby Torch or a Kirby Nick Fury cover. 

And even on the Monster Books, it was probably 50 Kirby covers for every ONE Ditko cover. 

 

On 6/26/2023 at 1:44 PM, Prince Namor said:

No data, just the fact that Stan would use Kirby for every cover he could, while Ditko was relegated to occasionally. Except for once Spidey was up and going. But we didn't even see many Strange Tales cover with Dr. Strange. It was always a Kirby Torch or a Kirby Nick Fury cover. 

And even on the Monster Books, it was probably 50 Kirby covers for every ONE Ditko cover. 

Kirby certainly drew almost every cover of Tales of Suspense from #5 to #99. Only one Heck cover in there, and a few by Colan towards the end.

Here's an extremely handy gallery of them all:

https://comics.ha.com/comic-issue-index/?ic13=SubjectMatter-Index-Cover-Details-070721&id=1442&num=0#issue15032

Edited June 26, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Prince Namor]

From 1962 to 1966

Steve Ditko as a creator on Spider-man brought us:

The Chameleon

J. Jonah Jameson

The Vulture

Doctor Octopus

The Sandman

The Lizard

Electro

Mysterio

Kraven the Hunter

The Green Goblin

The Scorpion

The Spider Slayer

The Crime Master

The Molten Man

 

Those are just the A-list Villains…

After Ditko left Stan Lee (with John Romita) brought us over the next 6 YEARS…

The Kingpin…

The Rhino?

The Shocker?

The Prowler?

 

Where’d the creativity go?

 

And Doctor Strange… do we need to even review that one? When that title finally DID get its feet (in 1974), it wasn’t Stan Lee, it was a from a new influx of writers and artists.

(Steve Ditko also gave the Hulk character a breath of new life after Stan’s interference killed the character in it’s initial run… most of what Ditko did in that brief period was the what the series was based on for the next 20 years).

 

Now think about this…

 

Jack Kirby, from 1961 to 1964 (4 years) had a hand in

The Fantastic Four

The Hulk

(Spider-man)

Ant-Man

Thor

Iron Man

Sgt. Fury and then Nick Fury (1965)

The Avengers

X-Men

(Daredevil)

a return of Captain America

and most of the villains in their rogues gallery.

 

Lee so over loaded Kirby with work, that he eventually stopped to just concentrate on the FF, Thor, Captain America and Nick Fury. Kirby became distrustful of giving Lee anymore ideas outside of the books he was doing. 

 

So what did Stan Lee bring us NEW without Kirby or Ditko from 1964 to 1971 (8 years)? NOTHING. Literally.

 

Suddenly he had no creativity - he began printing reprints of past stories.

Finally in 1967 he brought out Captain Marvel (which failed to take hold in it’s original form), which was mainly as a way to protect the copyright of the name.

 

NOTHING ELSE? He created no other new original titles over the last 8 years of his writing?

 

In 1969, Kirby decided he wasn’t up for giving Marvel any more material for their annuals, and guess what happened? For next 7 YEARS they’d become all REPRINT books.

 

Why?

 

Because there was no one with any creativity at Marvel to come up with ideas for stories.

 

 

But what about Jack Kirby during this time? Where was HIS creativity?

It was on the books he was concentrating on.

The Inhumans, the Silver Surfer, Galactus, the Black Panther, Ego the Living Planet, Him, The High Evolutionary and the Man-Beast…

 

But once Jack stopped giving ideas to Stan for the Fantastic Four and Thor, what happened to the creativity in those books?

 

If Stan ‘created everything’ as he said, what suddenly happened to the creativity?

 

We KNOW what happened to Jack’s creativity - he went to DC in 1970 and created a whole new UNIVERSE of characters.

 

But what about the 20th Century Shakespeare? Where’d HIS creativity go?

 

 

In July of 1970, Kirby was done with Marvel. The FF was drawn by John Romita for a few issues and Neal Adams did two issues of Thor before John Buscema took over.

 

Out of the 144 comics Marvel would send to the newsstand from July until December 1970, 71 of them contained from 50-100% of reprint material. That’s 49.3% of their output for the 2nd half of the year! (32 of those 71 books were Kirby reprints).

 

Stan had NOTHING.

 

Well, Harvey #1 came out in July.

 

Roy Thomas would actually lead the way with Conan the Barbarian, and Spoof #1, but overall…

 

The real Creator behind the ‘House of Ideas’ had left the House.

The truth of all of this is in the books themselves.

 

[Steven Valdez]

Don't forget, the Romita years also brought us Man Mountain Marko, the Kangaroo and the Gibbon.

[Silver Surfer]

I have to watch this again but he the telephone conversation between them was painful to listen to. Jack seemed to be trying to stay polite and guarded with his replies but Stan was peppering him “ but you never read the finished stories, didn’t you”. It was an unfortunante exchange. 

[The humble Watcher lurking]

Kirby and Ditko. Great. Also kudos to Buscema and Colan later. Buscema's  great Conan and Colan's great Tomb of Dracula. 

It usually is 95 percent of the time is the comic book artist that makes people open the books. Be it cover or inside, unless a genius like Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman. I don't think most people would compare Stan Lee to Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman with comic book writing. Usually it's the artist. They are the storytellers. Don't get me wrong there are great writer story tellers like Stephen King, but than again I don't think many people would pick Stan Lee the writer over Stephen King the writer. 

Let's face it Stan Lee was the great promoter, but it was Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko great creative talents that made Marvel to now have great success with the movies.

Reminds me of Bob Kane and Bill Finger all over again. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by The humble Watcher lurking